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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:28:58 PM   
Panther Bait


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Were those Kates from the KB, or from land-based squadrons? I am assuming from land-air, but would be nice to see the one of the KB's fangs pulled for the short-term.

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When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

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(in reply to JeffroK)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:38:59 PM   
Lecivius


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In any event our hero is starting to put the hurting on the dastardly yellow foe John is going to become one dimensional in trying to hammer Sabang. The next step will be a bit more difficult. How to stop, or slow down, BB runs?

In my incredibly limited experience, British torpedo bombers (I like the Albatross for this) set at a range of @ 7 with some escorts, can put a dent in one of those metal monstrosities. You won't sink one, but you can dent one. Flood the area with S boats (working torps). I actually sank the Musashi this way, in these waters, in one game. Two Albatross hits, followed up by an S boat hitting it in the straits, then a fleet boat got 2 live ones in it just south of Japan.

Now take what I say with a boulder of salt. I still hold the title of loosing the U.S. to Japan in my 1st PBEM I'm curious as to what others think?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:40:11 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ooooh.

He should have swept for a day or 2 before trying this, maybe he assume that his BB caused ore damage.



He did - he swept continuously since the bombardment.

He might've been better sweeping immediately after the nuclear bombardment. But even if successful, I wonder how effective Kates would be against a concentration of AA and a large airfield?

In this raid, I don't think the IJ bombers landed a single hit.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:41:44 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait
Were those Kates from the KB, or from land-based squadrons? I am assuming from land-air, but would be nice to see the one of the KB's fangs pulled for the short-term.


I think they were all land-based Kates (I'll check when I get home). The KB is operating just west of Sabang. The Kates came from the Malaya side.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:46:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
In any event our hero is starting to put the hurting on the dastardly yellow foe John is going to become one dimensional in trying to hammer Sabang. The next step will be a bit more difficult. How to stop, or slow down, BB runs?


John seems to be taking this pretty hard. Perhaps he was hoping that he could close the airfield by air rather than having to continually send in his BBs (air is certainly easier and less risky). If these events did discourage him about the air, then he is down to just the BBs.

quote:


In my incredibly limited experience, British torpedo bombers (I like the Albatross for this) set at a range of @ 7 with some escorts, can put a dent in one of those metal monstrosities. You won't sink one, but you can dent one. Flood the area with S boats (working torps). I actually sank the Musashi this way, in these waters, in one game. Two Albatross hits, followed up by an S boat hitting it in the straits, then a fleet boat got 2 live ones in it just south of Japan.


This is the strategy I've tried to employ with a bit of success. Beauforts got a shot at Hiei at Medan a few weeks back and missed. Then, just prior to the nuclear bombardment of the 18th, I brought in two Avenger squadrons, set them to range two, and set one Beaufighter squadron to escort. My hope was that a BB might be damaged sufficiently in the battle to slow it down and give the TBFs a crack a it. Since TFs break up following a battle (due to damage differences), I thought I might catch a cripple without LRCAP.

Lately I've extended the range to three for the TBFs. But I'll reconsider, and might try again with some Beauforts or even some Strinbags if they can make the hop from Ceylon (probably too far for them).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:56:17 PM   
Lecivius


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I don't like the Avengers, or the Beaufort's. They just don't seem to hit as often. Those British bi-planes, however, seem to be deadly. They do get shot up a lot, though.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:57:17 PM   
Lowpe


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Bombing seems to be really hard in this series of mods....something you need to remember in 1944.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 2:59:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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I'll see if I can get them in. I have had some luck with Beauforts in the past - I think I once sank two IJN BBs near Sydney in my earliest WitP game vs. John.

There are lots of US and Dutch subs in the Malacca Straits. Presently I think 14, with another ten or so enroute to Ceylon to replenish or returning to theater after having done so. There's also concentrations of Allied subs in the vicinity of the KB and guarding the IO approaches to the Sunda Straits (the latter persuades John to avoid using that strait for the KB, instead sending them around Soerabaja way at a cost of days and fuel, so I think it's an effective deployment).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 3:56:12 PM   
Skygge


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quote:

One Success: I do think I had one or two solid raids over new Guinea. Neither was defended by fighters and flak was light. I think I remember getting
3 on the ground and scoring double digit hits. These were the exception for me. I will email Skygee on our next turn to see if he'll volunteer anything.



My experience with allied tactical night bombing of bases is that it can be effective only to a limited extend.

If unopposed by fighters, bombing accuracy increases significantly, and if in addition little AAA is present then the bombers can do damage. Not crippling damage but damage still.

If however anything flies against the bombers, then they become more of a nuisance than a threat. - and I mean anything as in Pete´s, Tojo´s or proper night fighters like Irving´s. They all seem to equally disrupt aim.

Down side with flying anything but proper night fighter´s is that you lose more planes to the bombers defensive armament and ops, than you lose parked aircraft to the bombers.
You are better off flying at very low altitude, so your "ad hoc night fighters" do not catch bombers and consequently are not shot down or damaged by the bombers.

Best is having proper night fighters to damage bomber´s and hope some bombers crash on landing, as you will shoot down few of them.

Same can be said of AAA. You shoot down very few bomber´s, but the AAA disrupt the bombers aim, and hopefully some damaged bombers with try land on a hillside.

So if countered with night fighters it is more of an annoying experience than a real threat.

I have very little experience with strategic night bombing - and may it long be so - I suspect this will be much more effective.

And If flying Night Fighters with main armanent pointing upwards then try fly at a lower altitude than the bombers.



< Message edited by Skygge -- 1/28/2016 5:04:01 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 8:56:34 PM   
zuluhour


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Thanks for posting "Skygge". I think night bombing is fine. Maybe before "patching" it was askew, but I don't remember any craziness from my games. I think Dan should be able to bomb at will.

Dan , sorry for hi-jack, I would like to hear what the "old guard" has to say about it. I think Its a dimension which should be completely available to you.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 9:05:09 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:


John seems to be taking this pretty hard. Perhaps he was hoping that he could close the airfield by air rather than having to continually send in his BBs (air is certainly easier and less risky). If these events did discourage him about the air, then he is down to just the BBs.


It is great for you that he wears his heart on his sleeve and sends you the condition continuously. One could have hoped the same of the Japanese but of course we did crack their code so..... The Allies historically probably had the same thing.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 12:25:14 AM   
Canoerebel


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2/22/43

Battle of Sumatra: No visits by enemy capital ships and still no sign of them coming up the Slot. The frequency of the cycle is key - can John bombard every five days? Six? Seven? Tomorrow will make five (and there might be reasons this cycle is slower than others will be - for instance, if John had expected his bombers to close the field).

Enemy sweeps resume in large numbers. The Allied fighters do well today, downing 40 Tojos, 20 Tonys and a few Zeros. The Allies lose about half that number. But so many of my fighters are out of commission now. I'm standing most down tomorrow. I think John's fighters are pretty fatigued, and I doubt he'll send bombers just two days after his disastrous effort.

Sabang airfield is repairing very well now. Another day or two and it's at 100%. Supply is 275k with all troops afield fully supplied. IJ bombers hit troops at Langsa with minimal effect. No sign of an enemy advance in that direction in the next day or two. As for the west route, SigInt continues to show fragments of 19th IJA Division either prepping for Sabang or inbound to Sibolga. So I don't think that unit has begun its march yet. And that march is probably going to take at least 60 days.

John has three divisions in the jungle hexes of Burma probing Allied positions. IN two hexes he attacked today with poor results. Jungle-rough terrain should stymie him. The real question is why are three divisions off in the jungle in northern Burma instead of making haste to Sumatra? Does John have so many divisions inbound to Sumatra that he can afford to employ these elsewhere?

Of course, we're each orchestrating based on what we know (and don't know that we don't know) and think. Is he aware that Hellcats arrive in five weeks? Or does he think he has plenty of time to take care of Sumatra? Are we using two very different hour glasses?

KB is still loitering, now WSW of Sabang. His NavSearch is picking up a pack of Allied subs nearby, which is helpful. The longer the KB lingers out there, the more antsy John may become (I think). And there's always that chance of a sub crossing paths with a carrier.

Planning for the Best or the Worst? Is my future planning dependent on the Allies holding or losing Sumatra? Both, to an extent, though the prep and ship-positioning is based upon a favorable outcome. The next move will come en masse out of Oz - perhaps Timor, perhaps Admiralties and North New Guinea, or perhaps Java. SigInt and base-building suggest these areas are wide open. And if John remains focused on Sumatra for another two or three months it should be possible to sneak in and goose him good. If Sumatra falls, I'll have to revise the plans to take into consideration however much time he has to reposition troops (and SigInt will help decipher that puzzle).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 2:30:20 PM   
Panther Bait


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One other complication in using BBs only to keep Sabang suppressed is that, if he keeps doing minimum turnaround alpha strikes (using all available BBs in one big nuke bombardment), accumulated system damage is likely to force him to stop at some point. Once he pulls some of the BBs off-line to decrease sys damage or shifts to smaller bombardment TFs (keep the frequency of bombardments, each gets smaller, with some BBs "resting") in general, the results should drop accordingly.



_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 4:01:47 PM   
Lowpe


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Trying to dislodge the Allies is very tough.

You have a huge amount of mines.

You have a huge supply stockpile.

The terrain isn't good, but your blocking positions have good terrain.

My guess is at best he can dislodge you after 90-120 days with a full effort, but it will be hell on his big ships and he will lose several bombarding you to either subs or mines or air attack.

But the effort will really drain Japan and leave the Allies free to exploit other areas.

I think you win either way depending upon what you do with the rest of the world.






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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 4:04:32 PM   
paullus99


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He's going to regret the loss of all of those capital ships - and all it takes is one good opportunity & he could lose a lot more.....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 4:22:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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Yes, friction is my friend.

In one of my WitP games vs. Miller, the Allies invaded the Kuriles in late 1942 (or maybe it was early '43). Miller jumped all over that and eventually booted me out. But I think he lost four Kongos in the effort. As best I can recall, all four of them were sunk or crippled in one day by subs and PT boats (remember when they were uber?). But Miller was a tenacious defender. He'd soldier on even after a crippling defeat. In that game, I got bogged down in the DEI as my major vector of advance. It was bloody...it was slow going...and eventually the Allies sailed en masse right through the Java Sea, pasing Batavia and Palembang and Singers to invade.....China.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 4:35:16 PM   
Lowpe


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Allied deep invasions are very tough to defend against.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 4:38:19 PM   
Canoerebel


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 5:56:44 PM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, friction is my friend.

In one of my WitP games vs. Miller, the Allies invaded the Kuriles in late 1942 (or maybe it was early '43). Miller jumped all over that and eventually booted me out. But I think he lost four Kongos in the effort. As best I can recall, all four of them were sunk or crippled in one day by subs and PT boats (remember when they were uber?). But Miller was a tenacious defender. He'd soldier on even after a crippling defeat. In that game, I got bogged down in the DEI as my major vector of advance. It was bloody...it was slow going...and eventually the Allies sailed en masse right through the Java Sea, pasing Batavia and Palembang and Singers to invade.....China.


Yes I am probably the only AE player to ever lose the entire Kongo class in one turn, you have a good memory my friend and great to see you back in the saddle!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 11:01:47 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Yes I am probably the only AE player to ever lose the entire Kongo class in one turn, you have a good memory my friend and great to see you back in the saddle!


Probably not. :) Good to see you, Paul. I hope all is well in your world. :)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 11:11:45 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/23/43

Battle of Sumatra: An unusually quiet day, which is good of course. The Allies stood down most fighters (I left up just enough to prevent bombers getting a freebie). John swept in numbers with the Allies coming out on top. So most of my fighters got in a day of rest. No sign of battlewagons coming up the Slot. So, if my patrols are doing their jobs, Sabang may get yet another day. No "Radio, raise command. Send main body!" announcements, though there is a "CA" reported near Georgetown. If that turns out to be the Kongos, ouch! All damage is now repaired at Sabang. Forts to 4.39. Supply at 272k. 1st Marines in blocking position to dig forts. Tomorrow, the fighters resume CAP.

Massed bombings at Langsa barely touch the airfield, and down in the hex below, barely touch 20th Indian Division. I think forts and jungle terrain will prevent bombers being effective (and I hope John doesn't know that). If the Kongos come here it will be interesting to see if the troops are roughed up.

KB jinked to the NW of Sabang, I think responding to John seeing a DD up near Ceylon. I'm skirting the periphery hoping to confuse John. If the KB uses fuel, so much the better.

Burma: John and I had similar ideas. He sent all his bombers against Cox's Bazaar, damaging the airfield but not any aircraft. The Allies hit Rangoon (minus the Hurricane sweeps I had expected) and destroyed roughly 15 aircraft on the ground. John's army continues to move into the jungle. I don't see what he hopes to accomplish here - too much jungle, too easy for the Allies to move to threated locations, for him to accomplish anything. Maybe he wants to establish a good perimeter defense.

The big thing now is to see if those IJN BBs return, whether it be tomorrow or the next day or the next.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/29/2016 11:26:19 PM   
BBfanboy


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John's forté is the rapier thrust, not a long drawn out shield-bashing battle with maces. He seems to be unsure how to proceed and gives up if he doesn't get rapier-thrust results right away when he tries something. As you said, this dithering is helping you by slowing his attacks and using up time. Keep on grinding, Clint!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/30/2016 3:20:50 AM   
JeffroK


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And see what can be done to kick him in the butt while he's got his teeth at your throat.

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/30/2016 3:31:25 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

And see what can be done to kick him in the butt while he's got his teeth at your throat.


Knowing the location of the KB should be worth something...

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Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/30/2016 10:54:37 PM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Yes I am probably the only AE player to ever lose the entire Kongo class in one turn, you have a good memory my friend and great to see you back in the saddle!


Probably not. :) Good to see you, Paul. I hope all is well in your world. :)


I resisted from playing for about six months after my last game ended but came back for more eventually.....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/30/2016 10:59:22 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/24/43

He had taken refuge in a cave-like opening flowing water had carved in the bank of a Republican River tributary. Holed up there for two days now, he had nursed his wounds, which looked bad and felt worse. He'd been shot, once in his right thigh and once in the right side. The bleeding had stopped, but he felt awful. The Comanchees didn't know where he was, but the wolves - or maybe they were wild dogs - did. He'd set a snare and caught a cottontail, which he cooked over a small, hot, smokeless fire of dry willow. He didn't know where the settlers were, he didn't know where the Comanchees were, and he didn't give himself a chance of making it out of this mess alive. But he couldn't very well lie down and die. So he thought. And then he thought some more. Always, he mulled over what he might do to improve his chances.

Battle of Sumatra: The Kongos return and unleash another nuclear bombardment at Sabang. The damage to the field is immense - 56 service and 86 runway, and once again the support troops are disrupted (this time to 75%). The Intel Loss Screen shows 195 Allied aircraft destroyed on the ground, but I think the 195 refers to the number of aircraft destroyed and out of operation, because the actual number destroyed looks considerably less. But the field is largely shut down, meaning Sabang is now all but defenseless against attack by air. This means the 50 Allied ships there are doomed, either from LBA or the KB, which is still posted in a blocking position NW of the port.

So in this grimmest of moments, when John has finally managed what's he's been aiming to do for months, I nevertheless feel an odd surge of confidence. How can that be? Here's why:

1. Enemy ships hit five mines - one DD took two hits, two others took single hits, and Yamato took one. (The Sabang screen confirms that the mine total dropped to 951, which matches the hits, so I don't think this is FOW.) There were two sinking sounds immediately after, so I believe John might have lost two more DDs. Yamato wasn't badly damaged, barely showing smoke during a later meeting with some PT boats. But since John unleashed the Kaigun against Sabang in late January, he's suffered mine hits to a BB, CA, two CL, and six DD. I believe the CA, both CLs, and perhaps 4 or 5 DDs went down (some of these due to contributing causes after the mine hits).

The bombardment didn't touch supply or combat troops. Sabang is strong. (And there is still no apparent imminent threat to the concentration of troops at Langsa and the hex to the south.)

2. Yamato came in escorted only by DDs. The four Kongos also had DD escorts. No signs of enemy cruisers, heavy or light. I think the Kaigun is hurting, though I could be evaluating through rose-colored glasses too much.

3. At this point, I prefer that John maintain a mid-level morale of "I think I have things in hand" as opposed to either extreme (desperate to resolve the situation or so confident of victory that he takes bold action). I'm hoping that he feels that he has things well in hand and can reduce Sumatra with a reasonable amount of time. What I don't want him to do is to invade Langsa or even Sabang. The latter poses the only possibility of a coup-de-main defeat that might wrest Sabang from Allied hands with a fortnight. The former represent a possible route to Sabang in four to six weeks. But if John is satisfied to pick off ships and plans and hammer Sabang for awhile, the timeline lengthens measurably.

4. I don't have any choice but to leave my ships at Sabang. They're either slow or damaged. The KB is sitting right there. But more importantly, I want to give John something to aim for. Something to focus on. Something to incite his "Banzaii-ness" over the next few days. If he picks off Wichita and Hawkins et al, I won't be celebrating, but I'll know it's for the good of the Republic.

5. The most important ships at Sabang are the two ACM. The longer they can remain hidden and afloat, the better the minefield will be and the more attrition to Japanese ships might occur. With 951 mines in place, I think the minefield will last a long time even once the ACMs are gone. But every day they're there is a small victory.

6. Here's where I have to guess. I think John will set his LBA to bomb port. Ships disbanded in port will be sitting ducks. Ships at anchor will be sitting ducks to aircraft set to naval strike. But my guess is that John won't think that far: that he'll think all the chicks will flee the roost, so that he'll maintain the KB as a blocking force for one more turn. So I'm going to form ships into TFs so that they'll be defended by their own AA. This might buy me another day in which the land flak units can recover some from that 75 disruption level.

7. If enemy combat ships come in, they'll find two TFs of walking wounded and all kinds of merchants.

8. I could keep my fighters in place - there are probably 100 ready to fly - but the airfield damage is so great that it's probably not worth it. So I'm moving the good planes to Ramree Island temporarily. for awhile now, the defense of Sabang is up to AA, minefields, and friction. Those may not be as weak as they seem at first blush.

By the way, I was surprised by my NavSearch PBYS not giving any warning of the approach of the Kongos. But such are the fortunes of war.

It would be fun to know what John is thinking. Is he planning a conventional campaign to reduce Sabang long term? If so, I indeed think that will take at least 60 days, more likely a good bit more, and possibly won't ever succeed. Or will he shoot the works and invade Langsa or Sabang in big numbers? That's his route to victory. He has to do that. But will he.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, the wheels are in motion. But the planning is long term and will work so much better if John is still focusing on Sumatra come May 1 or June 1. Can I nurse this thing two to three more months? I think so. Or, more optimistically, can I hold a viable lodgement in Sumatra? After a devastating nuclear bombardment that has finally closed my airfield and left Sabang defenseless (except for those aforementioned AA, mines and friction), I up the odds from 33% to 34%. I'm going to try.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/31/2016 12:05:00 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/31/2016 12:15:24 AM   
Canoerebel


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In figuring out what to do with my battered airforce at Sabang, one possibility is to disband and "send some planes and all pilots to the pools."

Anybody have any idea what the average is for "some planes"? I'm sure it's a dice roll. It probably averages 50%?

I'm trying to decide whether it's worthwile to eat the losses in order to get my out-of-commission planes out of Sabang since they're sitting ducks. Unless you guys tell me 90% of the planes are destroyed, I'll probably do it.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/31/2016 12:51:00 AM   
BillBrown


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I think the undamaged ones go to the pool and the damaged ones are destroyed.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/31/2016 1:25:09 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I think the undamaged ones go to the pool and the damaged ones are destroyed.

+1

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(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 4289
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/31/2016 3:23:35 AM   
bobsteele

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/9/2015
Status: offline
I think you need to stay the course here. He has to kick you out of Sabang. He can't do so easily. Yes, you will suffer dreadful losses to your airforce, but you are inflicting similarly dreadful losses to his resources, not directly, but by making him commit them. He has to build those planes, fuel those ships, run that economy on a shoestring whereas you have a hawser in comparison. Granted, your aircraft production is startleing (sp? Someone help me out here) low, but on balance, you will have the benefit of highly skilled pilots flying equal or superior airframes in the not so distant future. I think you are thinking too one dimensionally, concentrating too much on the apparent airframe numbers disparity. It's a triad, dude. You will soon have advantages of numbers and quality on land and at sea that, I think, more than make for the apparent weakness in the air, and as you have yourself said, once you have Hellcats in numbers, many equations start to refigure in your favor. Fix your stuff, and keep feeding more in as it becomes available and doesn't cut too much into peanuts one through three. He has to get you outta there, so in that sense, you have him by the balls. You don't even have to squeeze. Just stay and keep him focused, then whack him in the backside.

You are in control here, not him.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4290
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