RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 3:36:29 PM

Lecivius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

He's not going to be short of fuel this close to Palembang and the DEI.

Long term yeah, but don't count on it having any effect on his operations.

I agree completely. But as I understand it his economy may come off the tracks by mid 44-45. And if Dan manages to come from another direction on the other side of the world....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 3:37:02 PM

Lowpe

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You can run the KB 14 days a month or so and not generally have fuel problems, I think. Less in a Scenario 1 environment, and less if you really steam the battleships and all those 14 knot pb.

Course in this game, there has been plentiful ship losses I believe, or at lest a lot of large ships hanging out in drydock.

The Nagato and Mutsu are your most fuel efficient battleships, you can use them a fair bit.

Then there is the opportunity cost of not running the KB.

It would be bad for John to lose Palembang oil in 43, but I don't think it is going to happen thanks to the HR and the terrain. It will be less bad to start losing it in Jan 1 of 1944, but still bad. If John fills up those bases with AA, it maybe nicer to hit the less protected bases in China.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 6:22:35 PM

IJV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

3/2/43

Mines as Sabang dropped from 951 to 949 over the past few days. The mines have never decreased unless hit by an enemy vessel (since there are ACMs in port). I never heard "vessel-hitting-mines sounds in the past few turns. This is a mystery. I'll watch the mine numbers more closely every turn now and scour combat report for damage to enemy vessels whenever the number drops.

Possibilities:

- Destroyers often clear a mine or two when passing through mined hexes - these events don't show up for the other side during the animation but will be recorded in the combatreport_daymonthyear file - ie accessible from the game if necessary. Check through the last few days and/or search for "encounters mine field at" - never know what you might find passed by in the night...

- ACMs iirc require fuel to maintain minefields - how's Sabang for burny stuff? (or, alternatively, are the ACMs themselves fueled?)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 6:34:28 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

He's not going to be short of fuel this close to Palembang and the DEI.

Long term yeah, but don't count on it having any effect on his operations.

I agree completely. But as I understand it his economy may come off the tracks by mid 44-45. And if Dan manages to come from another direction on the other side of the world....

Yeah, guys, I meant for long term effects as a substitute for strategic bombing before the HRs allow that. I know it can't be done right now, but if Sabang is allowed to "fester" it could be nasty. Of course those 4EB chew up loads of supply when operating.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 6:50:11 PM

Canoerebel

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3/3/43

The wind blew out of the north that afternoon, bearing low, sullen clouds. Clint looked up to get his bearings, not from sunlight, which couldn't pierce the cloud deck, but from the feel of the wind against his face. He drew his lamb-skin coat tight and began walking south. "It's an ill wind," he thought. " An ill wind." And he shivered beneath the lamb-skin.

Battle of Sumatra: Patrols report a host of enemy shipping all around Sabang, but I can't tell if anything is inbound or if this is, instead, a variety of TFs performing more mundane activities. The KB is close to the west. ASW TFs are taking on the Allied subs guarding the gate to the port. Plenty of merchant TFs around. No sign of the Kongos, but my NavSearch and Recon have low morale after enduring those bombardments.

Recon and SigInt do indicate a build-up at Sibolga on the west side and Tandjoen-magoo-mcgee-olustee (or something like that) on the east side. 48th Div. is aboard ships inbound to the latter. These are possible signs of an overland campaign.

Sabang supply looks good. The airfield is repairing nicely. Each turn, more aircraft leave for the healing grounds of Ceylon and Assam. I forgot to check mines, but I did note an IJ TF in the hex today - perhaps it's patrol craft and minesweepers.

SWPac: SigInt showing a little more movement into the Solomons chain, including engineers to Munda. I'm keeping a close eye on all the SWPAC regions, because Peanut 1, Peanut 2 and Peanut 3 are looking good.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/5/2016 5:55:29 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 7:38:01 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Mines as Sabang dropped from 951 to 949 over the past few days. The mines have never decreased unless hit by an enemy vessel (since there are ACMs in port). I never heard "vessel-hitting-mines sounds in the past few turns. This is a mystery. I'll watch the mine numbers more closely every turn now and scour combat report for damage to enemy vessels whenever the number drops.

In stock scenarios I believe each ACM has a limit on how many mines it can tend. I think, from memory, 150 per hull. It should be on the ship detail screen.

There might be a lag when the field is new, and then a random each turn for mine wear-out. I don't know inside the code if the ACMs in the hex, those with fuel, have their max-tend capability added together and math then done on the random or what. I know more ACMs are better than fewer. If they were infinite in tend capacity one would be as good as 10, and that isn't true.

I also never looked to see if deterioration accelerates as the field ages, or if it's linear. At the rate of loss you're seeing you have a lot of time. But not forever.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 7:43:37 PM

HansBolter

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Moose is correct on the 150 mines of upkeep per ACM.

They also burn fuel while disbanded.

You have to occasionally examine your ships in port at locales with them and refuel to keep them from running dry.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 2/4/2016 8:44:56 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 8:10:43 PM

Canoerebel

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Mines dropped this turn from 949 to 948. The combat report shows why: an MTB hit one.

My experience with mines at Sabang has been interesting. I disbanded two ACM in the port at the start. As many of you know, the Allies then deposited 960+ mines between D-Day and roughly D+50. The mine level then held constant for about five weeks until Japanese ships started coming into the hex. As best I can tell, there's been no attrition to mine numbers other than enemy ships hitting them.

Sabang is a level 2 port with lots of Nav Support. Perhaps the support augments the ACMs in effect?

The minefield has been instrumental in the defense. That's one of the reasons I left the vulnerable ACMs there despite the absence of CAP. And that's one of the reasons I left 25-30 merchants - to hopefully draw most of the attention of Japanese strike aircraft, thus preserving those ACM as long as possible. Lo and behold, John stood down from air attacks. So the ACMs are still in good shape and have used little fuel.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 8:27:22 PM

poodlebrain

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It is a pity you do not have a CD unit in Sabang. They defend minefields from enemy minesweeping efforts quite effectively.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 10:03:55 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Mines dropped this turn from 949 to 948. The combat report shows why: an MTB hit one.

My experience with mines at Sabang has been interesting. I disbanded two ACM in the port at the start. As many of you know, the Allies then deposited 960+ mines between D-Day and roughly D+50. The mine level then held constant for about five weeks until Japanese ships started coming into the hex. As best I can tell, there's been no attrition to mine numbers other than enemy ships hitting them.

Sabang is a level 2 port with lots of Nav Support. Perhaps the support augments the ACMs in effect?

The minefield has been instrumental in the defense. That's one of the reasons I left the vulnerable ACMs there despite the absence of CAP. And that's one of the reasons I left 25-30 merchants - to hopefully draw most of the attention of Japanese strike aircraft, thus preserving those ACM as long as possible. Lo and behold, John stood down from air attacks. So the ACMs are still in good shape and have used little fuel.

The ACMs might have been altered for the mod. I guess you could compare to stock.

There is more than one class of ACM in stock. The big ones carry (and appear on map from the queue) a small on-board stock of replacement mines. I think maybe 20? They can be used as small, auxiliary minelayers, or the mines can be left onboard and used as replacements. That might be what you've seen.

My experience is ACMs when disbanded use fuel at a constant rate and nothing affects this. When they get to zero unless you refuel them manually they stop doing the ACM job. I review ports once a month and use the "refuel all ships in this port" button. My ACMs aren't in places where fuel is scarce; if Sabang is low you might want to hand-refuel them.

I don't think Naval Support affects minefields, but I've been wrong about this game many times. I think you've been seeing the ACMs repairing losses from their stock. I'd be interested if yours have one in this mod.

Edit: I took a peek and it looks like the Alder class doesn't have on-board mines, and the Chimo class does. The Alders are far more numerous in stock. YP conversions to ACM become Alders it looks like. The Chimos carry MK 6 mines.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/4/2016 11:10:55 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 11:13:27 PM

Canoerebel

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Moose, I checked. Both ACM are Chino class. Both are fully stocked with 20 mines. I don't think they're emptying their loads and using AKE and AE to replenish. If they were, the mine total would have risen or at least varied each time they dropped a load. As stated above, the mine number remained exactly the same for many weeks before dropping just a bit with recent combat in which each mine lost correlated to a hit on an enemy ship (with the exception of two that I didn't verify one way or the other).

Somehow, my Sabang minefield is being tended to without diminishment by any cause except hitting enemy vessels.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/4/2016 11:39:08 PM

witpqs

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IIRC ACM use supply from the base as they do their jobs, but I doubt it is enough that you would notice it. Not sure if they ever dig into their mine racks, I suppose you might try to lay more mines with them?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 12:01:27 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Moose, I checked. Both ACM are Chino class. Both are fully stocked with 20 mines. I don't think they're emptying their loads and using AKE and AE to replenish. If they were, the mine total would have risen or at least varied each time they dropped a load. As stated above, the mine number remained exactly the same for many weeks before dropping just a bit with recent combat in which each mine lost correlated to a hit on an enemy ship (with the exception of two that I didn't verify one way or the other).

Somehow, my Sabang minefield is being tended to without diminishment by any cause except hitting enemy vessels.

My eyes are bad these days, but I see ChiMo class.

Tracker has a tab for minefield data. I rarely look in it, but when I do I don't see deterioration every day. And the per-day can be -1, -2, and in rare cases -3. But bases can go for days with 0. Never seen weeks and months.

If ACMs do use on-board mines they wouldn't replenish from AKEs. Mines operate outside the normal ordnance rules as pooled devices. Playing the AI I have laid the 20 a couple of times, but I don't think I ever tried to re-load the 20.

That said, this mod could have changed some things on the ACMs. I don't know the editor well enough to say what though. But the stability of the Sabang field(s) is pretty odd.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 12:24:30 AM

Canoerebel

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Clean living.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 12:29:21 AM

BillBrown

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The Chimos will reload mines, buy you have to create the mine laying TF and then hit the refuel/rearm button.

As far as I can tell, ACMs will maintain 150 mines each and there is no way to change that in the editor.
I wonder if Canoerebel has found a bug? His minefield should have a 1% loss rate each day( friendly base with port 1+).
He has 960+ mines so I think that he should be losing about 1% of ( 960 - 300 ) or about 6 - 7 mines per day.

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 2/5/2016 1:31:35 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 11:32:43 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

The Chimos will reload mines, buy you have to create the mine laying TF and then hit the refuel/rearm button.

As far as I can tell, ACMs will maintain 150 mines each and there is no way to change that in the editor.
I wonder if Canoerebel has found a bug? His minefield should have a 1% loss rate each day( friendly base with port 1+).
He has 960+ mines so I think that he should be losing about 1% of ( 960 - 300 ) or about 6 - 7 mines per day.

It does seem like a bug. I checked the manual and it's a straight 1% per day at a base with at least a size 1 port. It almost seems as if the code didn't flip the ownership flag when CR took the base and thus passes over the decay code when it runs down Allied bases with mines.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 12:13:17 PM

HansBolter

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I know in the past I have seen decay at fields I didn't have adequate ACMs to tend and I took it as a reminder to get more ACMs to the locale.

Can't say what version I recall experiencing this under.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 12:50:15 PM

Lowpe

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Did you lay mines prior to capturing the base? I have seen all sorts of weird things happen then.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 3:54:04 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I know in the past I have seen decay at fields I didn't have adequate ACMs to tend and I took it as a reminder to get more ACMs to the locale.

Well, yeah, and he should be having a reduced rate given he has 300 mines-worth of ACM. But he shouldn't be seeing zero. Even with rounding down and randoms, if any, he shouldn't go weeks at total stability less combat losses.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 5:13:38 PM

Canoerebel

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3/4/43

There wasn't any water in the rocks. Under the slate-gray sky, Clint hid there all day, with no signs of wagons, cavalry or Comanchee. Dicouraged and hungry, he waited for night to fall. Then he walked back to the cave-like hideway in the Republican River tributary bluff.

Battle of Sumatra: The signs indicate that John is taking an active interest in attacking Sabang in the short- or medium term. While losing Sabang keeps me awake at night, I prefer fighting over a more laid-back approach in which John would ignore Sabang while concentrating on buildling up the bases that surround and isolated it. Friction is my friend. Activity means friction.

Three Kongos return to Sabang today, unleashing another powerful bombardment. But the absence of Kirishima, damaged during the last run, dampens the effect just a bit. Both runway and service damage are mid 70s, and that's with service being in the 50s the day before. Not many aircraft left at Sabang, so numbers destroyed were modest.

Prior to the bombardment there were the delightful sounds of enemy ships hitting mines. The combat report indicates that three DDs took single hits, one incurring "heavy fires/heavy damage" and another "heavy damage." Friction. At this point, I believe the number of ships damaged by mines stands at 1 BB, 1 CA, 2 CL, 9 DD, 1 MTB. John does have minesweepers active in the hex. The report indicated 16 mines swept, and the total mines at the base confirm this. I'm forming a walking wounded brigade of heavily damaged CL Birmingham and DD Morris on the chance that John will forget there are combat ships present, thus giving them a shot at the small fry.

Tons of enemy shipping all around Sabang, includnig a KB division to the NE. I'm not sure where the Kongos retired to. I'm guessing Tavoy or Rangoon. NavSearch has been sporadic or absent since the bombardments commenced on 2/18.

A zilliion carrier strike aircraft are flying ASW agains the zillion Allied subs around Sabang.

No sign of imminent enemy movement on Langsa or the hex to the south. And I'm guessing that John might not hazard a try at Sabang unless and until he's satisfied that mines are addressed.

But SigInt shows that 19th Div. is now ashore and unified at Sibolga, on Sumatra's west side. Prior SigInt indicated this unit was prepping for Sabang. I'll be looking for this unit to make an overland march. My tripwire RCT at the end of the yellow road down the west coast from Sabang is in position to report any moves. I'm guessing it would take 19th Div. 40 days or more to make it to Sabang, or even longer if Allied bombers eventually hit the unit or if I place a stot roadblock in place. The tripwire RCT is at 40 AV and should be 60-75 or more by the time 19th could arrive.

Subs: Allied subs had a particularly good day, sinking two xAKL south of Hokkaido and hitting two xAK, one near Rabaul and the other in the Makassar Straits.

Odds: The odds that the Allies will hold Sabang in usable condition by April 1 are inching upwards. The fact that they've withstood all-out air and sea assaults and that John still hasn't made progress in the ground war give me a bit more hope of success. I place the odds right now at 40%. (Meaning I still think it more likely John will prevail.) If the Allies do hold, the base(s) will be surrounded by enemy airfields. I'm giving lots of thought as to how the Allies might address the situation when the time comes. If another Kongo or two take some damage, the Allies will get more proactive. Come on Friction, do your thing!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/6/2016 3:43:36 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 6:09:08 PM

Lecivius

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Even a few PT's would chase his minesweepers away. But they would eat some of your supply. Just thinkin...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 6:18:20 PM

Canoerebel

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Good idea, but Sabang is a British port, so can't produce PT Boats. I had previously created perhaps 50 or more PTs at Langsa and sent them up to Sabang. Over the course of three weeks, they were systematically wiped out by Japanese combat ships without scoring a single hit. (For us veterans of WitP, the neutering of the PT boat is kinda sad.)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/5/2016 7:12:22 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Good idea, but Sabang is a British port, so can't produce PT Boats. I had previously created perhaps 50 or more PTs at Langsa and sent them up to Sabang. Over the course of three weeks, they were systematically wiped out by Japanese combat ships without scoring a single hit. (For us veterans of WitP, the neutering of the PT boat is kinda sad.)

If you have a US xAK in the port (recall you said you had merchants there to 'screen' the ACMs) then you can put one in a TF, load supply and deploy the PTs from the transport instead of the port that won't allow it due to the nationality of the control.

Yes, they will get eaten alive by DDs, but if he is sweeping with smaller craft then the game is on!

And if one manages to put a fish into a Kongo........

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 2/5/2016 8:22:13 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/6/2016 8:27:55 AM

KenchiSulla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Good idea, but Sabang is a British port, so can't produce PT Boats. I had previously created perhaps 50 or more PTs at Langsa and sent them up to Sabang. Over the course of three weeks, they were systematically wiped out by Japanese combat ships without scoring a single hit. (For us veterans of WitP, the neutering of the PT boat is kinda sad.)

You could invest the PP to flip the base to USA ownership... I've had success using PTs, even scoring a CVL kill in my Japanese game, but they only really function under low moonlight conditions...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 1:00:34 AM

Canoerebel

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3/5/43 and 3/6/43

He'd seen the dust in the distance. He'd holed up in the rocks again for the fourth day running. For three days, he hadn't seen a soul. He hadn't seen an animal larger than a lizard. The only sound had been the wind. The wind and the meadowlark's lonesome whistled call. But someone was coming. Some group. And it was more than a few. It wasn't settlers in wagons, for whoever it was was moving fast. The only question now? Cavalry or Comanchee?

Battle of Sumatra: Either the Kongos came back quicker than expected or I miscounted days. But they got an ACM I had ordered to lay mines and disband in port. They got her before she disbanded. So now we'll see how the minefield does with just one ACM. CL Birmingham took a sub's torpedo when she raided one hex to the east in search of minesweepers. She scored one hit on an MSW. DD Morris was sunk by two Kates. So now Sabang is totally open. Except for the mines, which hit two more DDs - that makes 11 DDs hit thus far, if my count is accurate. The enemy MSWs are working. The minefield is down to about 895 now. But if may have done it's most important job - persuading John that Sabang is too tough to tackle by sea. After the bombardment, airfield damage is 80+/80+. Supplies are fine. Combat troops untouched.

And now it appears that John has chosen to invade Langsa. SigInt on the 6th includes multiple reports of elements of 16th Division and 2nd Tank Division aboard ships bound for Langsa. This could be a decoy as John then bypasses and heads for Sabang, but I think it's the real thing. Patrols remain sketchy due to low morale, but I think they picked up one possible amphibious TF perhaps two day's out of the port.

The troops at Langsa are in pretty good condition despite daily massive aerial attacks. There is roughly 660 AV behind three forts in jungle terrain. Fatigue and morale are in decent shape with modest disruption. 27th USA Division will retire to Langsa from one hex to the south to bolster the garrison. Most of the troops are 100% prepped for Langsa. Meaning John will need more than two divisions to have a chance here. He might be bringing more...or his plan might be to invest the hex to stop the Allies from making quick by-rail reinforcements from there to Sabang.

That would be a clever approach, though Sabang itself is fairly strong with roughly 500 AV behind four forts with 1st Marine Division not too far away. And the mines would rough up an invader, I think.

I'm glad John's coming. The best thing that could happen to the Allies is for John to commit to a major land engagement and to then get stymied or frustrated. A very long campaign is what I need and want. As stated previously, I want John's full attention here...but I need to hold it here for at least two more months. Is that possible when John has essentially no opposition in the air or at sea? We'll see.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 12:59:46 PM

Skyland

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Langsa or Sabang, anyway he will have to cut the railways to prevent in and out movements.
I would put more AV in Sabang because Langsa garrison in lost in all cases while for Sabang you might be able in the future to find a window for evacuation of troops fragments by air or sea.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 1:14:48 PM

Canoerebel

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There are many factors at work here. Most importantly, the goal here is to ensure above all else that this campaign takes the maximum amount of time possible. I can afford to lose Sumatra if it takes 90 to 120 days. I can't afford to lose it in 30 days, at least if I want to benefit from the distraction it's creating.

Langsa is in jungle terrain with three forts. There are also two jungle hexes between it and Sabang. But Sabang is clear terrain. So my objective is to use the jungle terrain (2x) as long as possible to slow John's advance to a crawl.

But once John vanquishes a hex, the jig is probably up, because the defenders will have been mauled. So using that 2x multiplier at Langa becomes even more central to the defenses.

The Allies will have 700 AV at Langsa (with another 1100 or so a hex away, to be called on if needed). With 2x, 100% prep for some of the units (including some divisions), and three forts, I think John may need a minimum of four divisions and perhaps as many as six to take this hex....unless enemy BBs can disrupt the infantry (which hasn't been the case at Sabang).

(in reply to Skyland)

Post #: 4377

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 3:04:02 PM

poodlebrain

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What morale and experience levels do your defenders have at Langsa and Sabang? What sort of leaders do you have? These might be difference makers between holding out for 40 days and 90 days.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4378

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 4:01:32 PM

Skyland

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
There are many factors at work here. Most importantly, the goal here is to ensure above all else that this campaign takes the maximum amount of time possible.

So i think the key is supply. Will you be able to sneak some more in ?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/7/2016 4:31:08 PM

Canoerebel

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Supply at Sabang is 247k and at Langsa is 8k. Bombardments and bombings are having negligible effect on supply. So should not be a limiting factor in the next 60 days or so. If the Allies are still in fighting shape come May 1 or so, then they'll be looking to address Sumatra on a permanent basis, including supply, troops, ships, aircraft, etc. IE, the Allies have what they need to fight effectively the next 60 to 90 days if the ground troops can hold. That's the key. How many troops will John bring? How much will he regret sending all those divisions off into the jungle in Burma, where even now he's having trouble extracting them back to the main bases. I might be wrong, but his decision to commit them on that wild goose chase might prove critical.

(in reply to Skyland)

Post #: 4380

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