RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 2:39:05 PM

Canoerebel

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I won't sail into the teeth of the utter unknown, but if the "Sumatra Division KB" remains accounted for in Sumatra for another week it won't be a part of the action (until too late to matter for my purposes). The Sumatra Division is carrying 500 aircraft. Based upon what I've seen on the Japanese carrier OOB, this is at least half of John's carrier power and possibly 2/3rds. That's going from old memory, so perhaps I ought to open the editor again and double-check. I don't want to face the full KB at this point in the game, but I am willing to face 1/3rd KB and possibly willing to chance 1/2 KB.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 4891

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 2:47:18 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I won't sail into the teeth of the utter unknown, but if the "Sumatra Division KB" remains accounted for in Sumatra for another week it won't be a part of the action (until too late to matter for my purposes). The Sumatra Division is carrying 500 aircraft. Based upon what I've seen on the Japanese carrier OOB, this is at least half of John's carrier power and possibly 2/3rds. That's going from old memory, so perhaps I ought to open the editor again and double-check. I don't want to face the full KB at this point in the game, but I am willing to face 1/3rd KB and possibly willing to chance 1/2 KB.

500 planes is half of a scenario one carrier power. Roughly.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/9/2016 2:58:07 PM >

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Post #: 4892

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 3:21:19 PM

Canoerebel

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The Allies will have something like this:

Seven fleet carriers (five USN, plus Wasp, plus one RN) and eight USN CVEs. That's enought to carry roughly 750 aircraft (two of the CVEs are designated to carry land-based fighter, so I didn't include them in the total). So you can perhaps see why I'm willing to face 500 enemy aircraft on KB but don't want to face 750 or more.

I'm reconfiguring plane load on the carriers to allow more fighters and less TBFs. The plan is to achieve suprise, take a couple of airbases, and thus have friendly ports with land-based CAP before full (or dauntingly competitive) KB shows up. Once the airfields are properly operational, the carriers would return to their traditional plane loads.

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 4:18:45 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I won't sail into the teeth of the utter unknown, but if the "Sumatra Division KB" remains accounted for in Sumatra for another week it won't be a part of the action (until too late to matter for my purposes). The Sumatra Division is carrying 500 aircraft. Based upon what I've seen on the Japanese carrier OOB, this is at least half of John's carrier power and possibly 2/3rds. That's going from old memory, so perhaps I ought to open the editor again and double-check. I don't want to face the full KB at this point in the game, but I am willing to face 1/3rd KB and possibly willing to chance 1/2 KB.

500 planes is half of a scenario one carrier power. Roughly.

Isn't this RA and not scenario 1. In fact it's an early, overly beefed up Japanese version of RA IIRC.

Didn't John tone down the Japanese side a bit in later versions? I'm not sure as I have only played his BTS scenario, not any of the RA versions.

I would be reviewing the Japanese side very closely to get a total CV count and taking into allowance the Japanese ability to speed up ship building.

_____________________________

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Post #: 4894

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 4:22:49 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I won't sail into the teeth of the utter unknown, but if the "Sumatra Division KB" remains accounted for in Sumatra for another week it won't be a part of the action (until too late to matter for my purposes). The Sumatra Division is carrying 500 aircraft. Based upon what I've seen on the Japanese carrier OOB, this is at least half of John's carrier power and possibly 2/3rds. That's going from old memory, so perhaps I ought to open the editor again and double-check. I don't want to face the full KB at this point in the game, but I am willing to face 1/3rd KB and possibly willing to chance 1/2 KB.

500 planes is half of a scenario one carrier power. Roughly.

Isn't this RA and not scenario 1. In fact it's an early, overly beefed up Japanese version of RA IIRC.

Didn't John tone down the Japanese side a bit in later versions? I'm not sure as I have only played his BTS scenario, not any of the RA versions.

I would be reviewing the Japanese side very closely to get a total CV count and taking into allowance the Japanese ability to speed up ship building.

My point Hans, and I think Obvert did some comparing a few pages back in the AAR.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 4895

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 6:05:52 PM

ny59giants

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John has admitted that this is one of the more Japanese powerful versions of RA. Later, we worked together to tone it down somewhat. It will make Dan's eventual victory all the sweeter.

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Post #: 4896

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 6:07:27 PM

Canoerebel

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5/4/43 to 5/6/43

Battle of Sumatra: No enemy invasions. But the noose is tightening. The Kongos bombard Sabang on the sixth. 2nd IJA Tank Div. does not attack on the west side nor do the Six Sister bombard there. I think John is awaiting supply to his unit before trying.

An IJA division has "appeared" in the jungle in the middle of the island. It's making its way slowly across to the east side to interdict the road. I don't think John can take a hex since I'll post a division wherever this one is heading, but it will prevent rapid rail transport between Sabang and Langsa. But I think it will take this unit so long to make it across that the campaign will already be winding down by then.

No attacks or other major developments on the east side.

On the 6th, there was a strike by Georges (first appearance), Judys and Zeroes against 1st Marine Div. I'm not sure whether this is KB or land-based from one of the Nicobars. No other signs of KB during these three turns.

I can continue to give the appearance of strength in Sumatra for perhaps two more weeks. After that, supply will become problematic. I think that until that point, John will focus very heavily on Sumatra and keep KB or a major subset thereof in this vicinity to ward off any threatened reinforcement runs. So if I'm going to take advantage of John's Sumatra focus (with seven BBs, hundreds of LBA, lots of divisions, part of KB, etc.), I'll have to move fast. Very fast. But I think it's doable.

Operation Circus: SigInt again that 116th Div. is inbound to Darwin. On the west side, the Aussie armor corps reached Exmouth, attacked, accomplished nothing, and was booted from the hex the following day. In the middle, the advance continues on Tennant Creek. This is a much larger operation. The IJA garrison at that base should be badly disrupted and low on supply, so I retain some hope of success.

I'm going to take another hard look at the Japanese carrier OOB tonight when I get home. I took a look previously and wrote down a list of what can conceivably be present by this point in '43. My recollection, now fuzzed a bit by the elapsing of months since that analysis, was that John wouldn't be able to put together something on the order of 2x the big carrier force currently (or just recently stationed in Sumatra). At least in the way of fleet carriers. He can probably cobble together a sizeable force of CVLs (including conversaions from CSs) and CVEs. But I'll review my notes carefully.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 4897

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 7:00:25 PM

obvert

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Is the George version the N1K1?

EDIT: Actually the N1K1-J

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/9/2016 8:08:10 PM >

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Post #: 4898

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 7:15:37 PM

Canoerebel

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Yes. What does that signify to you?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 7:54:34 PM

crsutton

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BTW Dan, nice edition of Georgia Backroads this quarter. You probably would not do it here but I got no problem giving your magazine a shameless plug. Those who have read my posts over the past ten years already know how shameless I am....

http://georgiabackroads.com/

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:05:39 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes. What does that signify to you?

Just checking which land-based version it is and that it's not the specially designed CV capable version that (I think) is available in this mod. It is in my copy of RA anyway.

It's not due until 4/45, which means you'll probably see them in early 44.

EDIT: Just looked and the N1K1-J is due in 5/43 in my RA, so this is slightly ahead (considering it has been upgraded into a unit and is flight ready now). It's not far enough ahead to warrant worrying if he's pushed the N1K4 too far ahead, since he should have been able to move the first version up by 3-5 months with a big investment in RnD. So it might be even mid-44 before the N1K4, but you can always periodically check the database to see how far these are advancing, as it updates with RnD of the player.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/9/2016 8:12:03 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:19:14 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks, Ross. I appreciate the encouraging words.

Thanks, Obvert, for casting light on the George. If I read you correclty, this then is the LBA version and I won't be seeing the carrier version until next year.

How good is the land-based George?

Some questions for you folks about a couple of HQ units:
1. How do you use a fleet HQ like 7th Fleet?
2. How do you use a land HQ like 6th Army? Its only component is motorized support. I'm assuming it gives the usual HQ bonuses (it has a range of 5). What good is the motorized support?

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 4902

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:26:24 PM

Sangeli

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Oh you've got to be kidding me...I had no idea there was a carrier capable George in RA. I thought one of the assumptions of RA was that the IJN goes all in on the A6M so this is surprising to me. Looks just as good as the F6F-5 if not better. So much for Allied allied air frames in 1944. Why on earth did I ever volunteer to play RA as the Allies? At least I'll have bragging rights once I win

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 4903

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:28:48 PM

Sangeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
How good is the land-based George?

In my experience the initial LBA George is quite good. A heavy CAP of George's will do very well against multiple P-38 sweeps. I avoid P-38 vs George matchup whenever I can. The Corsair has a slight edge though and will do fairly well. And of course the Thunderbolt will eat it up.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4904

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:29:09 PM

BBfanboy

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The Fleet HQ should have some naval support for helping with ship repair etc. It might also help with ship loading and unloading, depending if naval support has been specialized like they did with engineers.

I have always assumed motorized support does the same thing as support - helps recovery of fatigue and disruption, raises morale, etc.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4905

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:29:31 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

BTW Dan, nice edition of Georgia Backroads this quarter. You probably would not do it here but I got no problem giving your magazine a shameless plug. Those who have read my posts over the past ten years already know how shameless I am....

http://georgiabackroads.com/

Does look good!

Wish I could get down there to lend a hand with some photographs of the lead author's walks!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:34:53 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, Obvert, for casting light on the George. If I read you correclty, this then is the LBA version and I won't be seeing the carrier version until next year.

How good is the land-based George?

Well, it's good in the stock version, and especially since it's got maybe the best armament package of any mid-war fighter with 4 x 20mm plus 2 x 7.7mm CL mounted guns.

Trouble is it looks like if your version is the same as mine he's using Symon's adjusted air performance, and instead of a 365mph fighter the N1K1-J in RA starts right off at 393mph!!

That will not be fun.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 8:46:29 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The Fleet HQ should have some naval support for helping with ship repair etc. It might also help with ship loading and unloading, depending if naval support has been specialized like they did with engineers.

I have always assumed motorized support does the same thing as support - helps recovery of fatigue and disruption, raises morale, etc.

7th Fleet HQ has only "Support" and doesn't have "Naval Support" (unless the "Naval" is assumed by the AI since it is a fleet HQ, but I doubt that).

(in reply to BBfanboy)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 9:13:26 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The Fleet HQ should have some naval support for helping with ship repair etc. It might also help with ship loading and unloading, depending if naval support has been specialized like they did with engineers.

I have always assumed motorized support does the same thing as support - helps recovery of fatigue and disruption, raises morale, etc.

7th Fleet HQ has only "Support" and doesn't have "Naval Support" (unless the "Naval" is assumed by the AI since it is a fleet HQ, but I doubt that).

My understanding is that Naval HQs are only good for increasing ship repair rates so I put them in my ports with the biggest shipyards doing the most repairs in a given theater.

_____________________________

Hans

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 10:40:45 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, Obvert, for casting light on the George. If I read you correclty, this then is the LBA version and I won't be seeing the carrier version until next year.

How good is the land-based George?

Well, it's good in the stock version, and especially since it's got maybe the best armament package of any mid-war fighter with 4 x 20mm plus 2 x 7.7mm CL mounted guns.

Trouble is it looks like if your version is the same as mine he's using Symon's adjusted air performance, and instead of a 365mph fighter the N1K1-J in RA starts right off at 393mph!!

That will not be fun.

Both the Jack and George are much faster in DaBabes giving them Frank like fighters about a year earlier than normal. They are super fighters when in reality they were not so. Jacks are tearing up my Hellcats in my game. To make it worse the speeds on most Corsair types has been nerfed in DaBabes. In fairness JWE stated that DaBabes was designed with PDU set to off. These planes would not be around in numbers to worry about in that case.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 11:21:40 PM

Canoerebel

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You guys are giving me a healthy does of buyer's remorse. Jacks and Georges and expanded supersized KB and so on. It's enough to give an Allied player pre-invasion jitters.

I'll be giving everything a close look tonight: carrier numbers, likely carrier deployment, etc.

Right now, there are seven enemy BBs in Sumatra. Three others have been sunk. One is badly damaged. And right now most of John's remaining CAs are in Sumatra. Nine have been sunk. At least six are confirmed here (and probably at least two more). This leaves very few capital ships to support a KB elsewhere.

I could be wrong, so I'll tally and reconcile and deduce and try to make educated guesses.

But right now everything I'm seeing - SigInt, troop movement, ship and plane concentration, sub presence, etc. etc. etc. tell me that John is concentrated mainly in Sumatra but also giving healthy attention to the Java Sea region, NW Oz, and to a lesser extent SWPac. I think I have a good enough handle to go where he aint and drive a dagger in his vitals. But I can't be positive, of course. John may have a method of converting DDs to CAs in this game so that he has another full KB steaming in circles south of Truk or Tarawa waiting for a chance to laugh at me in unpleasant ways.

One thing that really amazes me. If NYGiants is right - if even John recongizes this a beefed up and lopsided version of RA - how does John have the chutzpuah - the nads - to gloat when he uses his overabundance of goodies to extricate his tail from a bad situation he got himself into (with an assist from moi)? That's chutzpah: to play your version of chess in which you get four extra rooks while your opponent gets two extra knights...and then to boast when your side avoids an early checkmate.

The noive of da guy.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 4911

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 11:28:30 PM

Mike McCreery

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What will be interesting to see is if John can hold up when all 3 of his games are entering the tough phase for the Japanese.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/9/2016 11:55:14 PM

Canoerebel

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I've gone through the OOB and so forth. I'll give more info about carrier numbers later, but the thing that jumps out to me is the disposition of capital ships.

BBs: John gets the usual 12 (plus two "CB" that come online in spring and late summer). Of the 12 traditional BB, three are confirmed sunk, one confirmed heavily damaged, and seven confirmed in Sumatra theater. That leaves one BB (and possibly two CBs) for use elsewhere.

CA: John gets the usual 18 plus two others (and I'm not aware of conversions that would give him more). Those 20 can all be on map. Nine are confirmed sunk (10 according to my Intel Screen, but I'm skeptical). At least six others are confirmed in Sumatra (and I think the number is eight). That might leave four others for carrier escort elsewhere.

Conclusion: John is short on big carrier escorts elsewhere. If he gets in a big shooting match out in SoPac right now, his carriers will have little protection, right? The Allied carries have plenty of good escorts.

That's not a decisive analysis, but how many IJ players would seek a carrier battle against the Death Star with so few capital ships to soak off and provide AA support?

How do you guys see this?

(in reply to Mike McCreery)

Post #: 4913

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 12:36:32 AM

JohnDillworth

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not sure if it's the version you are playing but the blurb from Johns page reads
"Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan replacing the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships with improved Shokaku-Class CVs and a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, two Tone-Class CAs, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions shall make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944."

BC's, Tone CA's, Cl's and additional DD's sounds like he has enough escorts. as you have the scenario could you load up as the Japanese player and get the details as to what comes on line when? Also it looks like all the fighters are going to be Zeros

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4914

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 2:41:46 AM

Canoerebel

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Here's the Japanese carrier OOB

CV (10 or possibly 11): Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shukaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Hiyou, Ryukaku, Taikaku (if expedited just a bit) and Renkaku (due in October)
CVL (5): Ryujo, Shoho, Zuiho, Ryuko, Nisshin
CVE (6 or maybe 8): Hosho, Taiyo, Unyo, Chuyo, Suijan (I can't read my own handwriting), Kuzuyu (and possibly Kaiyo and Shiyo, due in November and December)
Too, there could be CS conversions to CVL?

So a powerful lineup.

As for escorts, John's hurting for DDs too. But a dearth of CAs and BBs is probably his real Achilles heel. He can put the two BCs to that use and probably has a CA or two to spare, but that's pretty slim if the carriers are attacked in strength by Death Star strike aircraft.

I don't think I'd mind a Death Star vs. Half KB clash at this point if John is really short on capital ships. My impression is that with enhanced AA, carrier strikes are kind of a one-shot affair with heavy losses. That fact that there will be 600 or 700 merchants and support ships present will exacerbate that problem. I'm not seeking a battle necessarily, but if one took place now, in open waters with Death Start vs. Half KB, it probably wouldn't be a one-sided affair either way.

But I'm just talking aloud to gather thoughts. Much more thinking will go into this. Appearances of enemy ships (especially cruisers and carries) in Sumatra over the next week will significantly influence my thinking.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/10/2016 2:42:37 AM >

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Post #: 4915

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 2:58:39 AM

BillBrown

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deleted post, I need to think before posting.

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 3/10/2016 2:59:41 AM >

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Post #: 4916

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 3:57:20 AM

CaptBeefheart

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My impression is that naval HQs do very little. I'm at work, but I believe the manual says they help out with repairs, even though they have no Nav Support. 6th Army HQ would act the same as a corps HQ, but with greater range.

EDIT: Motorized support is no better than garden variety support. It's just more difficult to move around the map.

The way I see this game, you can be McClellan and wait until you are absolutely certain you have superiority, which means you won't move for a long time as you imagine all sorts of phantom troops on the other side, or you can be Grant and just get on with it. Good luck!

Cheers,
CC

< Message edited by Commander Cody -- 3/10/2016 4:00:54 AM >

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Post #: 4917

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 4:26:23 AM

Sangeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's the Japanese carrier OOB

CV (10 or possibly 11): Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shukaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Hiyou, Ryukaku, Taikaku (if expedited just a bit) and Renkaku (due in October)
CVL (5): Ryujo, Shoho, Zuiho, Ryuko, Nisshin
CVE (6 or maybe 8): Hosho, Taiyo, Unyo, Chuyo, Suijan (I can't read my own handwriting), Kuzuyu (and possibly Kaiyo and Shiyo, due in November and December)
Too, there could be CS conversions to CVL?

It's rough. Is there no CV Amagi or CV Katsuragi in your version of RA? In my game I believe every last CV (but not CVL) was complete by mid 43. Also there are some CVE conversions but I'm not sure how many.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I don't think I'd mind a Death Star vs. Half KB clash at this point if John is really short on capital ships. My impression is that with enhanced AA, carrier strikes are kind of a one-shot affair with heavy losses. That fact that there will be 600 or 700 merchants and support ships present will exacerbate that problem. I'm not seeking a battle necessarily, but if one took place now, in open waters with Death Start vs. Half KB, it probably wouldn't be a one-sided affair either way.

It most definitely would not be a one sided affair! I had my Death Star vs Half KB (and the weaker half of that) a few months ago. The Japanese torpedo bombers will break through any CAP and wreck havoc...that much you can assume. Just be sure to hit the KB harder.

< Message edited by Sangeli -- 3/10/2016 4:28:07 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4918

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 4:55:08 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've gone through the OOB and so forth. I'll give more info about carrier numbers later, but the thing that jumps out to me is the disposition of capital ships.

BBs: John gets the usual 12 (plus two "CB" that come online in spring and late summer). Of the 12 traditional BB, three are confirmed sunk, one confirmed heavily damaged, and seven confirmed in Sumatra theater. That leaves one BB (and possibly two CBs) for use elsewhere.

CA: John gets the usual 18 plus two others (and I'm not aware of conversions that would give him more). Those 20 can all be on map. Nine are confirmed sunk (10 according to my Intel Screen, but I'm skeptical). At least six others are confirmed in Sumatra (and I think the number is eight). That might leave four others for carrier escort elsewhere.

Conclusion: John is short on big carrier escorts elsewhere. If he gets in a big shooting match out in SoPac right now, his carriers will have little protection, right? The Allied carries have plenty of good escorts.

That's not a decisive analysis, but how many IJ players would seek a carrier battle against the Death Star with so few capital ships to soak off and provide AA support?

How do you guys see this?

Well, his choices are to look for a carrier fight now or wait. Everyone knows what kind of carrier reinforcements the Allies get between now and the end of the year. If I were the Japanese player I would be looking for a carrier fight as soon as possible. The odds just grow longer with each passing month. I think that the Japanese player "has" to win a big carrier fight sometime in order to last into 1945. John is an aggressive player.

And yes, I would for certain fight half a KB at this point. But only on a neutral court.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 3/10/2016 4:59:26 AM >

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4919

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 3/10/2016 5:02:13 AM

Canoerebel

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Tough decisions. The one advantage I have is pretty comprehensive knowledge of the exact whereabouts of IJN capital ships and half the KB. But it's a tough internal debate along the lines that Commander Cody pointed out: play it safe or take a calculated risk. I'm very much leaning toward the latter, but each turn brings new information to add to the scales.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 4920

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