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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 11:06:24 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Y'all" is still omnipresent in the South. I'm glad too. Folks that use "y'all" correctly are home folks.

Is there an incorrect way to use y'all?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 12:27:50 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Y'all" is still omnipresent in the South. I'm glad too. Folks that use "y'all" correctly are home folks.

Is there an incorrect way to use y'all?

It's one of the biggest debates in southern dialect-land. Traditionalists insist it is, and must only be, the second-person plural pronoun which formal English lacks. (The formal is "you", same as the singular, a fact that amuses my Spanish ESL students to no end.) In formal English one must add hand gestures or something to include the plural group in the "you", and that doesn't work in written English. So "y'all" (or ya'll" as it's sometimes, inexplicably, spelled) is a contraction of "you all" which indicates plurality and second-person state.

But. The inevitable but. Some, nay multitudes, insist on using it in singular in place of "you." To be homey, or "more" southern, or something. To your friend on the couch, "Ya'll ready to go to the movie?" You see this in movies and on TV a lot, put there by non-southern writers I presume. But I've seen it grow my whole life in the actual south too. I don't know if it stratifies by education or region or something else, but it's a thing.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/20/2016 12:30:56 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 12:33:36 PM

HansBolter

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I broke up the entire class in college English when the prof asked for the plural of you and I belted out "y'all".

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 1:53:51 PM

BillBrown

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And I thought the plural of you was youse.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 2:23:57 PM

Lecivius

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To continue to hijack this thread, while ya'll definitely has it's roots in the south, I can say with satisfaction it also is used by the unwashed masses( all 2 or 3 hundred of them) in the way backs of the Rockies

. Interesting, how nomenclature works it's way around the country like that.

<Edit>
Be sure you start reconning before you invade going forward. You have surprised John up to now, but he knows you're coming. He is sure to be beefing his defenses. I'm not sure an Indian division would do so well in The Great White North.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 4/20/2016 2:28:20 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 2:56:27 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

And I thought the plural of you was youse.

American: youz
British: yous
Ye Olde English: youse

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 3:33:05 PM

BillBrown

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I am old and most of my ancestors are English.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 3:40:38 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I'm not sure an Indian division would do so well in The Great White North.

Canoerebel hand picked the Indian troops from those who lived in the Himalayas (India included Pakistan then). They are quite familiar with snow and cold and wind!.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 4:04:23 PM

Encircled

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"Yous" sounds Brummie, possibly scouse

Certainly not the Queens English!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 4:07:38 PM

poodlebrain

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I grew up in California and our informal second person plural pronoun was you guys. When I attended college in Louisiana and used you guys in mixed company the females would immediately take offense and respond "we aren't guys." It didn't take me very long to adapt to southern norms and adopt y'all to avoid upsetting the ladies. I've used y'all ever since as I've grown to appreciate the saved syllable.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 4:26:14 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Y'all" is still omnipresent in the South. I'm glad too. Folks that use "y'all" correctly are home folks.

Is there an incorrect way to use y'all?

Yes, "Yall want some sparkling water with yer grits." Now that just ain't right .....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 4:36:18 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Y'all" is still omnipresent in the South. I'm glad too. Folks that use "y'all" correctly are home folks.

Is there an incorrect way to use y'all?

It's one of the biggest debates in southern dialect-land. Traditionalists insist it is, and must only be, the second-person plural pronoun which formal English lacks. (The formal is "you", same as the singular, a fact that amuses my Spanish ESL students to no end.) In formal English one must add hand gestures or something to include the plural group in the "you", and that doesn't work in written English. So "y'all" (or ya'll" as it's sometimes, inexplicably, spelled) is a contraction of "you all" which indicates plurality and second-person state.

But. The inevitable but. Some, nay multitudes, insist on using it in singular in place of "you." To be homey, or "more" southern, or something. To your friend on the couch, "Ya'll ready to go to the movie?" You see this in movies and on TV a lot, put there by non-southern writers I presume. But I've seen it grow my whole life in the actual south too. I don't know if it stratifies by education or region or something else, but it's a thing.

Ah. Yes. I see now.

I think my NC born and bred GF of the time taught me correct usage!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 7:32:07 PM

F4F

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I was born in south-west pennsylvania and the plural for you was 'yinz'. I occasionally used it when I was young but grew out of it. It's original usage was 'yinz guys' as in "yinz guys want to go to the movies?" but it was abbreviated to 'yinz what to go to the movies?"

Oddly enough, there is the term 'yinzer' which can either be derogatory or a mark of pride depending on the usage.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 7:39:03 PM

Canoerebel

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8/1/43

Circus: Naval support at Dutch Harbor is quickly handling Abbott's Sys damage, which is down from 80 to 37 in two turns. She has a sister Fletcher with her at Dutch. The other two Fletchers damaged in the recent action arrived at Seattle to upgrade and repair.

5th Indian Div. is a stout unit and will be reinforced with other units. I have a general idea via recon what I'll face at Amchitka and the four islands to the west. There will be no surprise this time. John will know when I'm coming and he'll be prepared. But the other side to that coin is that the Allies need to find places to wage war efficiently against concentrated enemy positions. I'd much rather do so at my doorstep than have to sail deep into enemy country. Until the Allies have a decided carrier advantage, that'll be the modus operandi. Strike close to home where friendly airfields and ports are available.

Roller Coaster: A convoluted turn that probably left both John and I thinking "what might have been." Five IJN DDs bypass Jaluit (where my Fletchers were posted) and manage to intercept an xAK TF that was close to Mili, steaming at flank speed, and set to disband. I was fortunate that the embedded DD fought off the attackers in pretty good shape, with one xAK suffering moderate damage. But then my Fletcher TF intercepted the enemy. I lost a Fletcher to a torp in the ensuing combat. But then John's ships ended up just two hexes from the good airfield at Ailinglaplap, where I had SBDs and escorts ready to pounce. But they didn't pounce. Weather was a factor in the a.m. and perhaps John had configured a massive LRCAP trap so that I should be happy over the outcome.

Olustee and Kettle Creek arrived at Pearl today. Wasp and Lex are 11 days from completing upgrades. The Roi-Namur troops should be assembled by then. The Kwaj troops are further out, but I'm planning on steaming with just the Roi contingent in order to give the Kwaj troops more time to prep.

Elsewhere: No signs that I can detect of imminent enemy offensive operations. For months now John has been consistently reconning the exact same package of bases: Sian, Paoshan, Toyun, Akyab, Chittagong, Ramree, Geraldton, Ulak, Adak, Umnak and Cold Bay.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 7:41:30 PM

Canoerebel

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I've heard it said that southerners will sometimes use "y'all" when referring to a single person, but I've never heard it done. Ever. It's always used in the plural.

Growing up in Miami in the '60s and '70s, where a large part of the population was from New York and New Jersey, I heard "you guys" almost exclusively and used it without thinking about it. But I dropped it almost immediately upon arrival at the University of Georgia.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 8:19:17 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

And I thought the plural of you was youse.

In American dialect there is a geographic distinction between "youse" and "youze." The former is more NYC/Brooklynese and the latter is Philly. It's really interesting to put a New Yorker next to a Phillyite and listen to the differences in the accents, them being so close in space.

In Pittsburgh and I believe parts of the Ohio Valley it's "yinz" or "yins."

This could all have been avoided if we'd stayed with thou/thee/thine in the singular (nominative/objective and thine is possessive), and ye in second person plural. We end up instead with "you" doing double duty as singular and plural, and a host of work-arounds.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/20/2016 8:24:29 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 8:22:08 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've heard it said that southerners will sometimes use "y'all" when referring to a single person, but I've never heard it done. Ever. It's always used in the plural.

You need to get out more, or go to the northern south. Try Virginia. Singular y'alls thick as fleas.

I've also heard tortured constructions with "double alls" and a possessive. Often when the speaker is exercised, as in a bar fight or sporting event. Sometimes the same thing.

"We're gonna kick all y'all's asses!"

I'm tired.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/20/2016 8:25:52 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 10:55:02 PM

catwhoorg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I was on the radio recently (managed to win a kitchen!) and I didn't realise how Northern I sound.

Not Manc, or scouse, but proper Northern!

First time I ever heard a recording of my voice, it took me a while to realise it was me. There was some Geordie reading the words, that can't be me.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 10:56:30 PM

catwhoorg

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The way i was taught (By a Louisiana native)
Y'all is singular
Both y'all for two people
All Y'all is plural.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 11:14:38 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You need to get out more, or go to the northern south. Try Virginia. Singular y'alls thick as fleas.

...

Well, nobody down here uses "y'all" in the singular. Down here I'd ask a friend, "Are you going to the ballgame?" I'd ask friends (whether two or 200), "Are y'all going to the ballgame?" And if I was really, really country, I'd say, "Are you uns going to the ballgame." (But, as I noted above, "you uns" is now rare and is only used, I think, by very rural and mostly uneducted folks.)

I don't drink sweet tea (ice tea), but I identify the "Real South" as the territory in which sweet tea is the norm. Going north, the furthest you'll find this is Nashville, Knoxville, and Roanoke (and some areas of southern Kentucky). Thus, to my way of thinking, Richmond and most of the larger cities in North Carolina are not "Real South."

A friend of mine from Chattanooga who moved to Charlottesville, Virginia, measured it by a different standard. Down in this section, every church holds Wednesday evening services (usually a "prayer" service and sometime dinner too). But when she moved to Virginia, she found that none of the churches had Wednesday night services. That's how she knew she was no longer "home."

Of course, none of this is of real significance to any of us. I've done enough traveling to know that I'd soon feel perfectly at home had circumstances settled me in Bath, New Hampshire, or Taunton, Massachusetts. People are mostly nice wherever you go. At least, small town people are.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 11:28:27 PM

ny59giants

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Sweet tea/iced tea vs hot tea - I've lived in NE Georgia, So Carolina, and now Tenn. On trips up I-81 to Vermont to visit family, you can tell what is still 'southern culture' IMO, by whether you get asked if you want your tea served hot or iced. The dividing line in my experience has been the classic Mason Dixon line. Down here, most people like their still hot Krispy Kreme glazed donuts. They do nothing for me. However, I will inhale a 1/2 dozen creme and/or jelly filled Dunkin' Donuts in no time flat.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/20/2016 11:37:23 PM

zuluhour

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I think your confusing the real south with the "deep south".

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 1:58:15 AM

AcePylut

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As a northern transplant to South Carolina, I was in a discussion about what I needed to purchase a shotgun. He kept saying there's no license necessary to buy a "home" gun. But what he was actually saying was, "There's no license necessary to buy a long gun". Long... Home.... sounds about the same. Seems legit :D

I say you guys, they say y'all. They ask a question I don't hear, and I say "what", and they say "excuse me".

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 3:36:59 AM

Canoerebel

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The strategic map shows the two areas of proximity and friction - the Marshalls and the Aleutians.

The current Allied plan is to engage in amphibious operations in the Marshalls in 15-20 days. If successful (meaning, if the Allies don't lose a lopsided carrier battle), I'll then flip my navy to the Aleutians for the invasion of Amchitka followed shortly thereafter by the move on Attu and adjacent islands.

Essentially all troops needed for these operations are available and prepping. One restricted division (for Attu, the furthest off) needs to be purchased, but the PP are building nicely.

This sequence has been the general Allied plan since early in '43. That doesn't mean I have to follow it, though I'm likely too. But as part of the due diligence protocol, I've looked at other options:

1. Do Nothing. The Allied navy will grow mighty strong in coming months. I could sit back, let John attack here or there (if he's so inclined), and await augmentation of the Death Star before moving. This is a viable option.

2. Flip the order of operations, hitting Amchitka first. I can do this, but I prefer moving in the Marshalls first because, given its circular arrangement, the Allied airfields offer more of a network of safety and power. I'd rather offer the first carrier battle here than in the more exposed and linear Aleutians.

3. Drop both plans and move deeper - the Solomons, Wake and Marcus, whatever. I prefer to have the first carrier battle closer to Allied bases. If and when the Allies have clear carrier superiority, these options become much more attractive.

4. Switch up and move someplace unexpected like NW Oz, New Guinea, Java, wherever. Available troops, prep time and PP make this a less attractive option.

At this point, the Allies want to seek battle close to friendly ports. The presence of sizeable concentrations of enemy troops that are "trapped" on islands is a drawing point. Hitting Kwaj, Roi-Namur, Amchitka and the like offer the best risk versus reward benefits.

The Moose one time offered an opinion that I really liked. He acknowledged the need for (or advantages of)surprise and deception early in the game. But he felt like there comes a time when using time and assets to create deception may actually be counterproductive. That it might better serve a strong Allied military to concentrate fully on the mission at hand and then simply overwhelm the enemy. I could see the wisdom in what he was saying.

To make clear - both sides are strong, especially at sea and in the air. The Allies have not suddenly grow much stronger than Japan. So I can lose the upcoming battles. But the Allies are strong enough to offer battle now. I just want to do so on my terms, to the extent possible, and on ground that is most conducive to victory.

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 4:49:38 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Brooklyn born, raised in Queens with zero New York accent. My wife, born in Manhattan, raised in Queens has a heavy Queens accent. He have know each other since we are 16. My kids can't figure out why their father has no accent and their mother does. I can't figure it either. I suppose some people retain accents and some don't

Yeah, accents are funny things. I am California born and raised, and until 2001, I'd never even visited New England. A couple of years before that, one of my co-workers told me he knew which neighborhood in Boston I was from. I had to explain to him why I burst out laughing.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 5:18:55 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The Moose one time offered an opinion that I really liked. He acknowledged the need for (or advantages of)surprise and deception early in the game. But he felt like there comes a time when using time and assets to create deception may actually be counterproductive. That it might better serve a strong Allied military to concentrate fully on the mission at hand and then simply overwhelm the enemy. I could see the wisdom in what he was saying.

Yes, I think Mooseman has a valid point here. But not really until after 1/44. Then you can apply power to force him to fight on any grounds. No sense pitty patting around when you have the strength.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 8:52:58 AM

JeffroK

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I think deception, surprise, and overwhelming strength are vital. (Especially in a game where japanese forces are not normal)

Deception to either lure away defenders or to make JIII delay in deciding what to react to.
(IMVHO, India & Australia should give you scope to nibble at the edges and keep his interest)

Surprise, within the bounds of your attacking a viable target, hitting somewhere that is not expected, or at a time unexpected. Dont do to many "Left-Right combos"

JIII may think he is used to your strategy & tactics, dont get into a rut of repeating too often.

Then kick him hard.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 10:01:08 AM

CaptBeefheart

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This extensive dialect discussion probably has JIII panicking that a major op is in the works. ;-)

Cheers,
CC

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 12:03:51 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

This extensive dialect discussion probably has JIII panicking that a major op is in the works. ;-)

Cheers,
CC

Been thinking the same thing. He reacts to the activity he sees on the opposing AAR.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/21/2016 12:37:12 PM

Canoerebel

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8/02/43

You gents have been part of my elaborately planned Southern Dialects and Idioms Maskirovka. This was Operation Clampett. But you're right - the level of activity could have John a bit on edge.

Roller Coaster: No combat today but there's lots of activity with forces in close proximity. John has a wolf pack centered close to Mili. I have xAKs unloading there and Fletchers about to move from there to Jaluit, where they'll cover for a largely naked xAK/xAP TF that is tasked with loading two support units tonight. This is part of an important effort to draw down the units at Jaluit, which is badly overstacked and therefore chronically short on supply. So, once again, there's a very non-sexy but significant operation underway on John's back porch.

Wasp and Lex ten days from completing upgrades. Canadians 20 hexes from Pearl. Today checked all fighter squadrons, especially the newly arrived ones aboard Olustee and Kettle Creek, and rotated out low-experienced pilots for veterans.

Circus: Quieter up here. A large enemy combat TF is at Shemya.

KB: No sign of enemy carriers anywhere. A PBY-Recon unit assigned to recon Truk tomorrow. I haven't targeted it before.

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