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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/20/2013 6:10:18 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		4/12/42
 
Australia:  All major reinforcements are ashore.  Most of the carrier air squadrons are back at Melbourne, excepting four SBDs that remain at Alice Springs, where they can stage forward to Perth area in the event of an emergency.  The three RCTs of Americal are prepping for Milne Bay and two of the offshore islands. 

India:  Landings commence at Port Blair, which should fall tomorrow.  John continues to probe via recon.  This might be a bluff or it could indicate genuine interest.  I would love to see a four to six division invasion of NE India at this point. It would give me a place to fight on my own terms.

China:  John tries four attacks, one of which holds promise.  He controls all hexsides at Nanning and has two Chinese corps bottled up there.  I don't mind losing one of them, but the other is a pretty good 350 AV unit. If my guys can hold a few more days, I'll have a hexside open.  Just east of Kweilin, John hammered a Chinese corps by air and then tried a shock attack that failed.  This won't get him anywhere because I'll have another unit there tomorrow.  Then, at Changsha and an adjacent hex, he tries two deliberate attacks that are utter failures.  The one at Changsha really messing up his divisions.  Here's the two results (he's been doing this in and around Changsha for months now, further disrupting his units):

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52) 
Japanese Deliberate attack 
Attacking force 31359 troops, 271 guns, 111 vehicles, Assault Value = 870 
Defending force 37169 troops, 290 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 914

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese adjusted assault: 404
Allied adjusted defense: 1177 
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)  
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
     2678 casualties reported
        Squads: 19 destroyed, 332 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 32 disabled
        Engineers: 1 destroyed, 34 disabled
     Guns lost 31 (1 destroyed, 30 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
     460 casualties reported
        Squads: 1 destroyed, 47 disabled
        Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Assaulting units:
   39th Division
   15th Division
   59th Division
   8th Ind. Engineer Regiment
   51st Road Const Co

Defending units:
   49th Chinese Corps
   86th Chinese Corps
   72nd Chinese Corps
   20th Chinese Corps
   65th Chinese Corps
   5th Construction Regiment
   27th Group Army
   9th War Area
   19th Group Army
   29th Group Army
   17th Chinese Base Force
   41st AA Regiment
   49th AA Regiment


Ground combat at 83,52 (near Changsha) 
Japanese Deliberate attack 
Attacking force 17945 troops, 170 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 556
Defending force 25654 troops, 110 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 751

Japanese adjusted assault: 265  
Allied adjusted defense: 2075
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 7 
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
     1234 casualties reported
        Squads: 6 destroyed, 171 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
        Engineers: 2 destroyed, 11 disabled
     Guns lost 15 (1 destroyed, 14 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
     286 casualties reported
        Squads: 1 destroyed, 57 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
     Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
   40th Division
   57th Infantry Brigade
   2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
   73rd Chinese Corps
   53rd Chinese Corps
   87th Chinese Corps

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 721
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/20/2013 7:34:10 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Allied Carriers: My most important decision right now is what to do with my carriers. I think I can afford to move them now, because John may have been scared away from SW Oz and, if not, my LBA might be sufficient to handle things. I don't want my carrier operating where the Death Star Combined KB is operating, which means I have to figure out where John is most likely to go. Trouble is, I can make persuasive arguments for just about anything at this early date (John may still be contemplating a long-shot, belated Phase II move against almost anything). My two most reasonable carrier uses in the short and near term might be to reinforce the Aluetians or to invade Ndeni, but I sure don't want to blunder into John's ships. I want to see where they go first, so for now I may position my carriers around New Zealand.


If I recall the IJN DB & TB pools are not that deep this early in the war. Your action around Perth may didn't cripple the KB, but I don't think they are in any shape for a stand up fight for about a month. I wouldn't go looking for too much trouble as the return is low, but you might have a few weeks to a month to give the bear a poke. Anywhere where LBA might be thing and he could be running troops or supplies to?

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 722
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/20/2013 7:50:54 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Hey, John.  I thought of you a couple of days ago.  This time last year, you persuaded me to read "With the Old Breed."  I did so over the course of several days including once or twice at quiet outposts on a nearby mountain.  (Reading outdoors is one of my secret "vices.")  Got any other recommends?

As for carriers, I am being pretty cautious. I will use my carriers but only if I'm nearly positive his are far away or imprudently divided (as John does so often).  Even after the shellacking at Perth, his combined carrier force is too stout for me to take on with my four carriers.  So I'm most likely to (1) either wait until he employs his somewhere (John isn't one to hide) or (2) develop a very strong hunch about the whereabouts so that I feel its worth taking a risk using them somewhere else.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/20/2013 7:53:59 PM >

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 723
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/20/2013 8:01:24 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		So how's the war going thus far?  Overall, despite some problems here and there and an embarrassing loss of a multitude of ships around Oz, the Allies feel very, very good.  While John is making some noise, the Allies are effectively laying a strong foundation to fight the war.  In a way, I feel like John has been building his house by focusing on the chandeliers, doorbells and trim, while the Allies have been working on the foundation, flooring and walls.

Most of John's problems thus far have been self inflicted wounds, especially at Singapore but also to an extent at Batavia, Clark Field, and several places in China. He's inartfully and inefficiently used many of his divisions, making me feel all warm and fuzzy in defending further forward.  His use of the KB has been hit and miss - hits early on in the IO and then later around Australia; miss around New Zealand.  His work in China has been pretty determined and gritty.  He's making some headway, but he's launched far too many attacks at poor odds.

Overall, the Allies have done a few things I'm pleased with:  (1)  the early Aluetians campaign did what it was intended - draw John's attention and some key ships; (2) you guys know better than I do, but I'm pretty pleased with how things went in SW Oz.  Using my carrier air was a risky tactic, but I think it worked and may have been instrumental in saving this region for the Allies; (3) With some exceptions, the Allies have done pretty well in China; (4) with the notable exception of Cocos Island, the early Allied "breakwaters" (Diego Garcia, Port Blair, Luganville, and Cold Harbor) worked out well.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 724
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/20/2013 8:26:14 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

(Reading outdoors is one of my secret "vices.") Got any other recommends?

Work and life keeps me away from the game and even the forum.

Well With the Old Breed was one of the 2 best first hand soldiers accounts of WWII. The other, which you probably have read, is by a French/German soldier on the East Front. "The Forgotten Soldier" is a preservative from the losing side. Not surprisingly, from the guy on the ground, the preservative is not so different. most highly recommended.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 725
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 7:48:51 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		CR: Great work, as always. Not only are you providing plenty of virtual drama with this AAR, but real life drama as well. I'm glad you and your sons made it through that tornado intact. And good story.

Good luck!

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 726
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 10:14:21 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

(Reading outdoors is one of my secret "vices.") Got any other recommends?

Work and life keeps me away from the game and even the forum.

Well With the Old Breed was one of the 2 best first hand soldiers accounts of WWII. The other, which you probably have read, is by a French/German soldier on the East Front. "The Forgotten Soldier" is a preservative from the losing side. Not surprisingly, from the guy on the ground, the preservative is not so different. most highly recommended.

What is the cuurent "read" on Guy Sajer and "The Forgotten Soldier"?

Some time back it was considered a work of Fiction, though with a solid base to the stories?


_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 727
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 12:19:12 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		Last I read is that the person exisited and the story was true but that "take" has gone back and forth. It cretainly reads true, and the unit battles and locations are accurate. It's by far the best first person account of the war I have read but I am pretty much limited to english and translations. Suprissingly, I have not yet heard of an excellent Russian take from the common soldier

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 728
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 1:20:26 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Last I read is that the person exisited and the story was true but that "take" has gone back and forth. It cretainly reads true, and the unit battles and locations are accurate. It's by far the best first person account of the war I have read but I am pretty much limited to english and translations. Suprissingly, I have not yet heard of an excellent Russian take from the common soldier


Excellent recounts of Kurks on the Military Channel "Tank Battles" series. But I agree beyond isolated interviews I have not seen a good first person "War in Peace" account. If the ending of the song "Roads to Moscow" is anything like reality .. it might explain why .... [Intelligent and articulate people had a likely chance of going to Sibera or the afterlife during the Stalin era ]

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 729
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 3:13:54 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		4/13/42
 
SW Oz:  Lots of recon.  John can give me fits here if he comes in overwhelming numbers, but I am of the opinion that he won't come.  His recon will show lots of units.  That, the recent air battle, and the fact that my bases are growing will give the appearance of stouter opposition than actually exists.  So, I think John is more likely to keep up the appearances of interest while shifting elsehwere.

NE Oz:  This would be a good candidate.  Neither of us has done anything in the area, which might persuade John that it could be lightly defended.  It is, though I'm shifting units into the Brisbane/Maryborough sector now.  It will be a long time before I fight at Rockhampton or further north, but Brisbane would definitely be defended with all I had.

DEI:  The Allies still hold Batavia and Manado.  Both have patrols.  The former has a small Dutch bomber unit that has flow sorties everyday and never scored a single hit.

India:  The Japanese easily Port Blair and its exhausted garrison.  What now?  Surely John will want to use the shiny new toy for some raiding around Ceylon and southern India.  A big invasion of Ceylon would bother me right now (because it would succeed), but my fondest desire would be a big invasion anywhere in the Chittagong/Calcutta/Viz regions.

China:  Two B-17 units at Chungking are performing woefully in trying to damage Japan's new airbase behind my lines, but other than that, things continue to look well.  I'll close the hexside between that base and Changsha tomorrow.  I'm also working on closing the hexisde from the west, though John's using bombers to try to stop this.  SigInt that 18th Div. is inbound to Haiphong (and therefore the Nanning/Liuchow sector).  Interesting that John is feeding troops into China from outside, rather than the other way around.  China is active and hot and seems to give John hope for success, but if he's largely given up ambitions elsewhere, the Allies are holding much more territory than I'm used to holding (since Sir Robin is my titled name).

Pacific:  Quiet.  I have troops prepping for a variety of destinations.  The Aluetian preps are good to go, though I'm not even sure I'll ever pull that trigger.  I have more ambitions for the Tarawa, Ndeni, Tulagi and Milne Bay regions, but prep for all of them has just gotten under way.  When 32nd Div. arrives in a few more days, I'm leaning towards prepping her for Milne Bay.

Prep Rule Changes:  A couple of things seem to have changed, based upon my observations (but I never read the patch notes, so you guys may no differently).  First, it's cool that switching prep doesn't cause a unit to start over at zero.  If a unit is 100% prepped for x, she'll start at 25% prepped for y when you make the switch.  That's good and sensible.  But units that move long distances via strat or transport do not gain prep.  Thus, units that move from East Coast to Capetown, or from West Coast to Oz via transport, show no increase in prep whatsover.  So, these units sit around and play cards, with no calesthenics or map-reading exercises?  Bad rule.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 730
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 4:42:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

[Prep Rule Changes:  A couple of things seem to have changed, based upon my observations (but I never read the patch notes, so you guys may no differently).  First, it's cool that switching prep doesn't cause a unit to start over at zero.  If a unit is 100% prepped for x, she'll start at 25% prepped for y when you make the switch.  That's good and sensible.  But units that move long distances via strat or transport do not gain prep.  Thus, units that move from East Coast to Capetown, or from West Coast to Oz via transport, show no increase in prep whatsover.  So, these units sit around and play cards, with no calesthenics or map-reading exercises?  Bad rule.



I look at it as a trade-off with ship damage not normally accruing off-map, or fuel being a problem.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 731
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 6:01:25 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		4/14/42
 
Australia:  Quiet, and some of the heat is off thanks to a lingering patrol squadron at Manado, which reports Japanese carriers to the east on a course for Babeldaob.  With 175 American fighters stationed at Melbourne to provide CAP, with more coming, I'm going to take this chance to upgrade my carriers there.

DEI:  Batavia and Manado still holding out.

India: Now that Japan has Port Blair, bombers are free to seek other targets, resulting in the first raid against Akyab.  While I feel pretty secure from Viz to Chittagong, Cox's Bazaar and Akyab are lightly defended.

China:  The AVG plus another USAAF P-40E squadron do stout work at Changsha, tearing up 50+ Lilly and Sally.  Tomorrow, Chinese troops will close the two road hexsides leading in and out from the interior IJ base.  My little army at Nanning is in big trouble, but elsewhere things continue to look good.

Pacific:  The shuttle between West Coast and Oz is very active, with alot of troops en route.  Mostly, this is flak and base force units, but included in the mix is 9th Marines.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/21/2013 6:02:00 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 732
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 7:14:12 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

[Prep Rule Changes:  A couple of things seem to have changed, based upon my observations (but I never read the patch notes, so you guys may no differently).  First, it's cool that switching prep doesn't cause a unit to start over at zero.  If a unit is 100% prepped for x, she'll start at 25% prepped for y when you make the switch.  That's good and sensible.  But units that move long distances via strat or transport do not gain prep.  Thus, units that move from East Coast to Capetown, or from West Coast to Oz via transport, show no increase in prep whatsover.  So, these units sit around and play cards, with no calesthenics or map-reading exercises?  Bad rule.



I look at it as a trade-off with ship damage not normally accruing off-map, or fuel being a problem.


Except, he did mention TFs on map moving from WC to OZ and the units are not gaining prep. They are aquiring damage and burning fuel.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 733
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 8:54:51 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

China:  The AVG plus another USAAF P-40E squadron do stout work at Changsha, tearing up 50+ Lilly and Sally.  Tomorrow, Chinese troops will close the two road hexsides leading in and out from the interior IJ base.  My little army at Nanning is in big trouble, but elsewhere things continue to look good.



I'm a bit confused as to how an IJ player continually attacks without preceding sweeps (or escorts? not sure by your post if there were in this case) in places where he should have both multiple sweeps and escorts with the bombers. A great job on your part of course, continuing to take advantage. The rule as I see it for the Japanese is if you're going on the offensive, bring more than you need and then some. We all get lazy sometimes of course, and our opponents surprise us, but if I had just lost most of a CV air arm over Perth I would hopefully be more careful for at least a few weeks.

This looks like something you'll be able to take advantage of for a long time.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/21/2013 8:57:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 734
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 8:58:31 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

[Prep Rule Changes:  A couple of things seem to have changed, based upon my observations (but I never read the patch notes, so you guys may no differently).  First, it's cool that switching prep doesn't cause a unit to start over at zero.  If a unit is 100% prepped for x, she'll start at 25% prepped for y when you make the switch.  That's good and sensible.  But units that move long distances via strat or transport do not gain prep.  Thus, units that move from East Coast to Capetown, or from West Coast to Oz via transport, show no increase in prep whatsover.  So, these units sit around and play cards, with no calesthenics or map-reading exercises?  Bad rule.



I look at it as a trade-off with ship damage not normally accruing off-map, or fuel being a problem.


Except, he did mention TFs on map moving from WC to OZ and the units are not gaining prep. They are aquiring damage and burning fuel.


The game is a neverending stream of decisions.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 735
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 9:12:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		John does fly escorts and sweeps with his bombers, but he's not careful enough combined with I've been lucky nearly every time I've inserted my fighters at Changhsa.  When I insert, he's either not been careful or he's been unlucky, with a few exceptions.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 736
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 10:17:35 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I heard something on the radio today that really caused me to sit up, take notice, and seriously wonder where our nation is headed. 

First, a little background:  It's true that our nation is politically divided right now - mainly along urban/collegiate vs. rural lines.  Despite our various woes, I have harbored no serious doubt that these times are considerably better than previous eras in American history, including the Watergate/Vietnam/assassination era of the '60s and '70s, the KKK/lynchings era of the '00s to '30s, and of course the Civil War.

Nevertheless, I am aware that the resentment that leads to serious unrest and violence usually takes time to build.  In the case of the Civil War, you had various nullification and secession movements for 30 years before the actual breach occurred.

So, while our country is mostly peaceful, prosperous and stable, I sometimes look at modern events and wonder, "Is this an isolated incident or is this an early step towards a serious breach?"  For instance, it's kinda easy to dismiss the extremist secession talk that followed the last election, except when you realize it takes early extremist ravings to actually get the ball rolling.

Then, on the radio this morning, I heard news that Tennessee lawmakers are considering a bill that will authorize Tennessee law enforcement to ignore federal statutes deemed unconstitution by Tennessee and for local sheriffs to arrest federal law enforcement trying to enforce said laws.

Danged if this doesn't sound like some kind of eery nullification and fugitive slave law situation resurrected after 160 years. 

We're not even close to a serious breach yet, but I now have no doubt we're taking steps leading that way.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 737
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 10:34:34 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Canoe - Tennessee is but one of several states (including Texas, Georgia & Wyoming) that are considering similar bills. Unfortunately for them, the issue of "Nullification" by the States of Federal Law was settled even before the Civil War when South Carolina tried to pull the same thing on President Jackson.....

There are a lot of people out there that believe what they read on Facebook & elsewhere on the Internet (all the crazy Obama / socialism garbage).....I don't believe a Democracy like ours was designed (in its present form) to survive a 24 hour news cycle - when politicians are forced to respond on issues in seconds, as opposed to days or weeks. It used to be that a certain calm could be maintained, because news could be digested before decisions were made (and public opinion changed at a much slower pace).

Unless people take a step back, a deep breath, and stop being so freakin' crazy, I am worried about the future.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 738
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 10:40:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think Georgia is considering anything of this sort, though I know many states have citizens advocating things like this.  But when the legislature seriously considers bills that amount to Nullification and Secession, that's a new level of concern.

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 739
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 11:02:05 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		CR, you will recall my PMs on this very subject from several (many?) months ago. I am disturbed but not surprised that so far my prediction looks pretty good. Scary stuff.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 740
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2013 11:23:28 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Canoe - Tennessee is but one of several states (including Texas, Georgia & Wyoming) that are considering similar bills. Unfortunately for them, the issue of "Nullification" by the States of Federal Law was settled even before the Civil War when South Carolina tried to pull the same thing on President Jackson.....

There are a lot of people out there that believe what they read on Facebook & elsewhere on the Internet (all the crazy Obama / socialism garbage).....I don't believe a Democracy like ours was designed (in its present form) to survive a 24 hour news cycle - when politicians are forced to respond on issues in seconds, as opposed to days or weeks. It used to be that a certain calm could be maintained, because news could be digested before decisions were made (and public opinion changed at a much slower pace).

Unless people take a step back, a deep breath, and stop being so freakin' crazy, I am worried about the future.

I dont think any Democracy handles 24hr News/Facebook/Internet very well.

Back in my youth, our Politicians had time to work for the good, not have to answer the barrage of news cameras, blogs etc.

When the Brits went into the Falklands, they carefully controlled the press numbers so that they had time to do the job and explain later. No live shots of belgrano going down, or Sheffield being sunk.

In the 50's, our Prime Minister had time to get a ship to the UK, 6 weeks each way, and spend time there as well (might have been Lizzies Coronation)

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 741
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 12:02:58 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think Georgia is considering anything of this sort, though I know many states have citizens advocating things like this.  But when the legislature seriously considers bills that amount to Nullification and Secession, that's a new level of concern.

From an outsider across the border, the thing that looks most serious for US unity seems to be the hardening ideological divide that gets both sides repeating their mantras and neither side willing to do much compromising.
Democracy is the very essence of compromise, with everyone accepting what the general population wants, even if it rubs them the wrong way. Individualism and Community sides of the issues are not finding common ground.
No wonder Congress is paralysed [and Obama's hair is turning white rapidly].

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 742
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 12:08:17 AM   
desicat

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline 		The fact that this is even being discussed in a forum like this should be sounding alarm bells.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 743
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 1:09:45 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		I'm thinking of getting business cards printed up with the full cite for the Heller decision. It would save lots of words.

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The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 744
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 2:11:46 AM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		This thread is bordering on getting locked so we should tread carefully. I believe the media has polarized many peoples thinking. It seems that many folks are willing to take what some media outlets spout at face value. Whether because they believe it, or they want it to be true, and that is sad. The media seems to have as much influence as lobbyists do. Let me see if I can turn this back to the WWII era and leave the usual suspects out. Father Charles Coughlin was most well know and influential in his day. It's worth seeking out his story and see how slippery some slopes can be. He reminds me of some folks on TV and radio now. I'm backing away from this now. I come here to get away


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 745
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 3:14:44 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I heard something on the radio today that really caused me to sit up, take notice, and seriously wonder where our nation is headed. 

First, a little background:  It's true that our nation is politically divided right now - mainly along urban/collegiate vs. rural lines.  Despite our various woes, I have harbored no serious doubt that these times are considerably better than previous eras in American history, including the Watergate/Vietnam/assassination era of the '60s and '70s, the KKK/lynchings era of the '00s to '30s, and of course the Civil War.

Nevertheless, I am aware that the resentment that leads to serious unrest and violence usually takes time to build.  In the case of the Civil War, you had various nullification and secession movements for 30 years before the actual breach occurred.

So, while our country is mostly peaceful, prosperous and stable, I sometimes look at modern events and wonder, "Is this an isolated incident or is this an early step towards a serious breach?"  For instance, it's kinda easy to dismiss the extremist secession talk that followed the last election, except when you realize it takes early extremist ravings to actually get the ball rolling.

Then, on the radio this morning, I heard news that Tennessee lawmakers are considering a bill that will authorize Tennessee law enforcement to ignore federal statutes deemed unconstitution by Tennessee and for local sheriffs to arrest federal law enforcement trying to enforce said laws.

Danged if this doesn't sound like some kind of eery nullification and fugitive slave law situation resurrected after 160 years. 

We're not even close to a serious breach yet, but I now have no doubt we're taking steps leading that way.



I don't think it is that complicated. Our social experiment depends on a strong and vibrant middle class. You maintain a stong middle class by doing two things. One by restraining the tendency for the concentration of wealth and power into a small group of individuals, and two by devising ways to pull poorer people up into the middle class. We suceeded as a nation for 250 years because we were sucessful in doing this. We are failing as a nation over the past three decades becasuse we are losing control of this process.

Lose the middle class and our great experiment fails. Simple as that. All other political issues do not matter because a healthy and sucessful middle class acts in cohesion to effectively govern the nation....

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I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 746
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 4:11:34 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I heard something on the radio today that really caused me to sit up, take notice, and seriously wonder where our nation is headed. 

First, a little background:  It's true that our nation is politically divided right now - mainly along urban/collegiate vs. rural lines.  Despite our various woes, I have harbored no serious doubt that these times are considerably better than previous eras in American history, including the Watergate/Vietnam/assassination era of the '60s and '70s, the KKK/lynchings era of the '00s to '30s, and of course the Civil War.

Nevertheless, I am aware that the resentment that leads to serious unrest and violence usually takes time to build.  In the case of the Civil War, you had various nullification and secession movements for 30 years before the actual breach occurred.

So, while our country is mostly peaceful, prosperous and stable, I sometimes look at modern events and wonder, "Is this an isolated incident or is this an early step towards a serious breach?"  For instance, it's kinda easy to dismiss the extremist secession talk that followed the last election, except when you realize it takes early extremist ravings to actually get the ball rolling.

Then, on the radio this morning, I heard news that Tennessee lawmakers are considering a bill that will authorize Tennessee law enforcement to ignore federal statutes deemed unconstitution by Tennessee and for local sheriffs to arrest federal law enforcement trying to enforce said laws.

Danged if this doesn't sound like some kind of eery nullification and fugitive slave law situation resurrected after 160 years. 

We're not even close to a serious breach yet, but I now have no doubt we're taking steps leading that way.



I don't think it is that complicated. Our social experiment depends on a strong and vibrant middle class. You maintain a stong middle class by doing two things. One by restraining the tendency for the concentration of wealth and power into a small group of individuals, and two by devising ways to pull poorer people up into the middle class. We suceeded as a nation for 250 years because we were sucessful in doing this. We are failing as a nation over the past three decades becasuse we are losing control of this process.

Lose the middle class and our great experiment fails. Simple as that. All other political issues do not matter because a healthy and sucessful middle class acts in cohesion to effectively govern the nation....

Actually, according to IRS figures the "rich" in this country varies substantially, and yes in the past three decades as well. What I mean is that those who make up the top 10% in income changes significantly. Economically, individual Americans are very mobile, both upward and downward. Various media/political speakers want you to gain the impression that there is a permanent divide, but the truth is otherwise.

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Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 747
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 4:40:33 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Then, on the radio this morning, I heard news that Tennessee lawmakers are considering a bill that will authorize Tennessee law enforcement to ignore federal statutes deemed unconstitution by Tennessee and for local sheriffs to arrest federal law enforcement trying to enforce said laws.


This will go nowhere. Saner, cooler heads will prevail and this law will be quashed, as it should be. While we have a goodly number of problems in this country, the role and heirarchy of the Federal government vis a vis the state governments has been pretty clear. State legislatures can rattle their pens / swords to sate the local populace anger with Washington all they want. So long as they quietly do nothing of the sort in a legally binding manner, it's just so much noise.

PM me anytime you want to get into the juicy stuff. You should return to your regularly scheduled broadcast before your AAR gets locked.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 748
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 5:07:36 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Tennessee lawmakers are considering a bill that will authorize Tennessee law enforcement to ignore federal statutes deemed unconstitution by Tennessee and for local sheriffs to arrest federal law enforcement trying to enforce said laws.

Danged if this doesn't sound like some kind of eery nullification and fugitive slave law situation resurrected after 160 years.


You're very right, it does. The Northern states had "Personal Liberty Laws" which interfered with attempts to return runaway slaves -- and it drove the Southern states nuts. Ironic that Tennessee would think of going that route. But I think that bit of history is too well remembered to be repeated.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 749
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2013 9:29:36 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John does fly escorts and sweeps with his bombers, but he's not careful enough combined with I've been lucky nearly every time I've inserted my fighters at Changhsa.  When I insert, he's either not been careful or he's been unlucky, with a few exceptions.


It's a good thing you're both doing an AAR since you're both so good at spinning the outcomes!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 750
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