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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 2:00:23 PM   
Canoerebel


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Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Bill, thanks for the tip. That makes a big difference. I'll probably go ahead and send John a note to this effect: "The B-29B comes online in March 1945 and was configured for night bombing. I'll probably use it in its historic role. I may begin night bombing in some capacity in the not-too-distant future. If we discover that it is unbalanced - that even good defenses aren't effective against it, such that it has an unrealistic impact on the game, we'll discuss it. My intent is to have a realistic night bombing aspect to the game, not something that is out of proportion to its actual impact."

Or something to that effect.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 9991
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 2:36:15 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		I admire your dedication to the "realistic."

Of course, this mod is anything but.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 2:43:35 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The attack on Mini KB was a cobbled together plan using the best planes I could, on the off-chance that John's carriers might move in such a way to allow one. Picture.


I didn't think you did that...everything seems so well orchestrated!

Had no idea you have no late game experience...it doesn't show at all.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 2:45:38 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I know, but this is a special case. During the Sumatra campaign, I squawked when John started night bombing Sabang. My concern was the many forum reports that night bombing was nerfed (this was in 2013). I told John that I'd be glad to forego night bombing until deep in the game if he reciprocated or that I'd use it immediately if he did. He elected to abstain, so there's been no night bombing by either side since then.

So it's a special case that I have to handle accordingly.

I'm not sure night bombing is or was nerfed, but that was the scuttlebutt back in the day.

*Edited to add: I also said I'd want to use it historically in the late game, putting it in such a way that I think it's necessary to give him a head's up.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/24/2017 2:47:08 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 3:23:15 PM   
BillBrown


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Status: offline 		I have not found night bombing to be all that effective. A lot of aircraft get lost on the way.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 3:40:04 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		It'll come into its own when CR is within easy range of HI industry.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 3:51:36 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Night bombing is a wonderful game within a game aspect of WITPAE.

I would recommend you broach the subject immediately.

Why?

Japan has 21 squadrons eligible for night fighter duty. Less, if they don't pursue some of the strange upgrade paths.

If Japan has neglected preparing for night bombing because of the earlier discussion...well then it would take months and months to prepare if it was possible to prepare at all.

Night bombing, and it's opposite, Night CAP have definite learning curves.

(in reply to paullus99)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:07:39 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

Night bombing, and it's opposite, Night CAP have definite learning curves.

+1

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:07:52 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Bill, thanks for the tip. That makes a big difference. I'll probably go ahead and send John a note to this effect: "The B-29B comes online in March 1945 and was configured for night bombing. I'll probably use it in its historic role. I may begin night bombing in some capacity in the not-too-distant future. If we discover that it is unbalanced - that even good defenses aren't effective against it, such that it has an unrealistic impact on the game, we'll discuss it. My intent is to have a realistic night bombing aspect to the game, not something that is out of proportion to its actual impact."

Or something to that effect.


Well, the problem is that the Allies went to night bombing after having given up on pinpoint strategic daylight bombing due to its lack of effectiveness. They went with low level saturation fire bombing instead. If you are bombing industry and factories at night then there is really little historical basis for it and it may be out of line with the simulation. Fire bombing is another story. We pretty much have banned major night bombing in my game as it just has too many issues. That late model B29 has no defensive armament and I thought it would be an issue. But by that time air superiority was so complete that it did not matter. Plus they carry a massive bomb load as compensation. In your position now, it will be easy enough to have fighters in escort range soon enough. A good Allied player is going to pound Japan with or without night bombing.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:39:47 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		7/5/44

John got called into work, so only had time to send the combat movie (I won't run that til later) and Combat Report. I have reviewed the latter. It includes an unexpected carrier clash in SoPac, which is worth discussing in detail. This was a one-sided battle, with the Japanese carrier force overwhelming the Allied force (the small strike by the latter didn't get through). Here are the excerpts from the Combat Report:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Efate at 119,154

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18
A7M2 Sam x 51
B6N2 Jill x 44
D4Y1 Judy x 11
D4Y2 Judy x 15
D4Y3 Judy x 23

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 19
FM-2 Wildcat x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 6 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y1 Judy: 1 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y2 Judy: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 8 destroyed
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVE Copahee, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Altamaha, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Long Island, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DD Quality
CL Kenya, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Newfoundland, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Quiberon, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Paladin, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Efate at 119,154

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 48 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18
A7M2 Sam x 27
B6N2 Jill x 33
D4Y2 Judy x 13

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 2
FM-2 Wildcat x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 1 damaged
D4Y2 Judy: 2 damaged
D4Y2 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
FM-2 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Paladin, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Newfoundland, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Quality
CVE Altamaha, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Pathfinder

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Erromango at 119,156

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 11
D4Y1 Judy x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 6 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 5 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
BB Pennsylvania
CL Gambia, Bomb hits 1
DD Hall
CA Suffolk, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Enemy carriers involved seem to be Kanoya, Soryu, Shokaku, Hiryu, and Ibuki.


(in reply to crsutton)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:40:19 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Makee-Learn: Good one. I was scratching my head about your name until I started reading "The Fast Carriers" a couple of weeks ago. Now I know where your name comes from.





I first saw it in "Titans of the Sea", it has a chapter titled "Makee Learn". The book is about the development and operations of American and Japanese carrier task forces during WW2. American carrier task forces often had a admiral, that was slated for future air command, along as a observer in "Makee Learn" status. Combat is a environment that puts all combatants in a constant "Makee Learn" mode.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:41:46 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Are you going to try and go without "The Bomb"?

How is "The Bomb" playing into your strategy?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:46:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		It looks like the Allies have lost three CVE, one CVL, two CL, and two DDs. John may press forward tomorrow, so the damage could increase. He'll want to bag CA Sussex and BB Pennsylvania.

This battle is a quick and stinging Japanese victory from two aspects: (1) it gives John a big boost in victory points; and (2) it gives John a big morale boost.

This battle is probably an Allied victory in that John detached a significant carrier force to a remote and unimportant location, leaving him unable to commit KB in the Luzon/Formosa region. I don't think I'm making too much of this. I recognize the tactical and operational aspects of this, but from a strategic standpoint it gains him helpful victory points at the cost of leaving his heartland open.

The combat report shows no enemy air raids on Death Star and the Herd today. And while John may pull something soon, it will be at least a week to ten days before the SoPac KB could return to Luzon/Formosa. It absence may further enable Allied expeditionary activity in the Peep Show region.

I'll post a full combat map centered on the Luzon/Formosa region later. There were some developments there and more activity in the Miri area.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:47:54 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

I'll post a full combat map centered on the Luzon/Formosa region later.


Here is the airfield..




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/24/2017 4:50:34 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:50:48 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Canoerebel

Are you going to try and go without "The Bomb"?

How is "The Bomb" playing into your strategy?


I don't have any plans to use the bomb, but I'll consider it when the time comes.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 4:57:41 PM   
DRF99


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Status: offline 		So KB is split into (at least) 3 groups: Main KB, mini-KB, and "south-seas" KB. Since you've seen both mini-KB and south-seas KB you know what can't be with Main KB. I'd imagine that if Main KB showed up now, it would be crushed by the Death Star.

Does this change your plans?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 5:16:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, I have a good idea as to KB's makeup. When I got good sightings on her last week, her plane numbers were pretty obvious. (I suspect now that John showed KB to satisfy my curiosity as to it's location, while slipping SoPac Mini KB off to the southeast; it worked by and large, though I did have patrols flying out of Efate, Koumac, and a dot hex north of Luganville that didn't pick up the raiders; I looked carefully again last turn).

This probably doesn't impact the timing of Peep Show. Preparation is a key component of that, now. I need about another 10 days or two weeks for the beachhead infantry divisions to reach at least 50% prep. At that point, I'm willing to invade. I plan to use that window to get the units to ports, to get the ships to Manila (making sure the channel is open), and to then get things going.

But the scattered locations of the IJ carriers may allow expedited operations around Formosa, perhaps including one contested invasion that a division is 100% prepped for. And, perhaps most significantly, it gives me more security in positioning Death Star in such a way as to give John fits around Formosa.

To make clear: I would willingly take on Consolidated KB at this point, though I'd try to configure the battle to minimize the impact of enemy LBA. By the time John is able to consolidate his carrier TFs, if he ever does so, the Allies should have Aparri's level seven (perhaps level eight or nine, by then) airfield. Allied bombers will begin attending to Formosa's airfields, so that the equation will be changing rapidly. John has probably missed the chance for decisive battle in this theater that didn't involve Allied LBA in a meaningful way.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 5:29:29 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

To make clear: I would willingly take on Consolidated KB at this point,




SKEDADDLE!


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 10:41:55 PM   
Xilana

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/7/2012
Status: offline 		Kind of a Jeb Stuart at Gettysburg move...daring but ultimately stupid. I honestly admire those who play this game, as its akin to a Japanese fantasy in that to survive Japan either is augmented or the Allies nerfed. Sorry for the rant, I just don't get the pull in playing alternative history in this sense.

EDITS:

1. This post is not directed to anyone, its only my thoughts.
2. My reference to Stuart is just that...I meant to say prior to...
3. My reference to alternative history perhaps is better phrased alternative reality in that if Japan was so well run, there would have been a commensurate response by the Allies. In the games view of reality, the Allies make the real life Japanese look like military geniuses.
4. Not trolling or inciting fights here...that is not the motive for this post. If anyone wishes to discuss, you have my permission to take this post and post it into its own thread. I respect the author of this AAR, and had no thoughts of hijacking it.

< Message edited by venividivici10044a -- 4/25/2017 2:40:07 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 10:55:16 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Well, a nice little surprise but the Hermes and Long Island are obsolete ships. That with the loss of two CVEs will not really impact you much. You just put is past you and stay the course. Those ships are way out of position.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/24/2017 11:58:00 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: venividivici10044a

Kind of a Jeb Stuart at Gettysburg move...daring but ultimately stupid. I honestly admire those who play this game, as its akin to a Japanese fantasy in that to survive Japan either is augmented or the Allies nerfed. Sorry for the rant, I just don't get the pull in playing alternative history in this sense.



Not sure what you meant, I was joking that a combined KB may scatter as oppose to fighting, as a combined KB covered by Kamikazes is THE SEA BATTLE.

Stuart was skedaddled before Gettysburg and for the first 2 days. His actions on the third day was inconsequential. Instead of providing the Army of Northern Virginia with vital reconnaissance, Stuart was busy raiding those fat Pennsylvania farms. Dereliction of Duty was Stuart's move at Gettysburg, he knew it and even offered to resign. Thankfully it was rejected by Lee. Lee may have realized that prior to the Gettysburg Campaign there had been a "Communication Breakdown" that even he himself had contributed to.

Does not any change to events result in alternative history?

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/25/2017 12:04:45 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 1:33:08 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		7/5/44

John was so overjoyed by yesterday's attack in SoPac that he forgot to send the turn. I finally dropped him an email at midnight, asking if that was what happened.

SoPac was the locus of the most significant battle activity of the day. In looking at the actual condition of the ships and the location of KB, I think that the battle is indeed a curious mix of Japanese battle success that takes place far out of position. There's a fair chance SoPac KB continues the chase tomorrow. Each day it raids down here is worth whatever he hits and much more.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10012
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 1:50:02 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		So, he's literally pulling a "Jeb Stuart at Gettysburg" while you are about to undertake an operation which will put you in excellent position to start bombing his industry?

He really is the embodiment of the Japanese High Command.

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Post #: 10013
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 1:55:33 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Paullus, I know John sees it differently, and I understand that I've lost ships and stand to lose more. But I agree with you that this is strategically a misplay by him. I put it this way, two turns back, when I thought this raid consisted just of CB Ikoma...the fact that it actually includes so much more makes it all a much more helpful scenario.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

7/4/44

SoPac: John commits a capital ship (CB Ikoma) to a bombardment run at Luganville. She hangs up there and undergoes repeated attacks by LBA and a small CVE TF...but ends up taking modest damage (seven 1,000-pound bombs).

This was an extravagant use of this asset. Even had the bombardment accomplished everything possible, this remote area means nothing at this point in the game.



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10014
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 1:57:15 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		That action at Miri is very interesting.

Do you have a lot of AR/AD/AG/AS ships? I love those, and by combining them at a forward port you can make a super repair facility especially great at repairing system damage at pierside mode.

You are entering such a great aspect of the game with so much fun involved, and really fun for both sides but JFB's usually don't see it that way unfortunately.

One tactic I liked using with fletchers against M-M was to put 4-6 fletchers together, maybe with a CL, and run them in at flank speed into the chinese coast with a fair bit of night naval search. I would also put some AB on night naval strike strafe. Run the ships anywhere, right into Hong Kong, Nagasaki. I would use Lightnings and Mustangs for LRCAP. Of course the area was flooded with subs too. Flank speed, generous engagement range, and return to base. Heck, they are even great at bombarding runways.

You probably don't have the assets or fuel yet to be so extravagant, but you could plan for the day by training an AB squadron up for low naval and strafing (probably already has the strafing). In someone's AAR, Makee put up a great graphic of joint night action with Black Widows and PT boats.

You can even use the AB during the daytime with a little caution. It is a great way to deal with riff raff as you put it, but also E's, barges, MTBs, etc.

EDIT: Kudos for taking the island off Formosa. Simply amazing. 5-6 hexes to the Chinese Coast.


< Message edited by Lowpe -- 4/25/2017 2:01:22 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10015
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 2:27:38 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		At least Stuart did round up some nice farm horses.

Who was it that was praised as a great military commander and he responded "No Iam not, for I have never had command of a Army in defeat".



Alexander Suvorov ???

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/25/2017 2:35:25 PM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10016
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 2:30:23 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I have lots of auxiliary ships in theater now, but I can't detail them to Miri yet. That place is too hot. It's a level four airfield with 90 aviation support, but that's not enough to provide security if John really gangs up on the base. Too, I'd need robust combat TFs there to ward off bombardment runs.

Miri is an important base, so I'd do it...but as important as Miri is, it's is a sideshow compared to Formosa and vicinity. My major focus is on wrapping up the Luzon campaign (another week, perhaps) while keeping John off balance around Formosa. Then, in perhaps two weeks, Peep Show really gets underway (you can see why I'm hopeful that SoPac KB spends a few more days raiding in the Noumea region).

This is a fun aspect of the game. I used to say that 1942 and early '43 was the most fun for an Allied player. Apparently that's because I'd really only played that far. The time or two that I played deep into '44, AE vs. Miller and WitP against John III, I didn't really understand the game, so I was feeling my way as a blind man. But this current situation is the most fun I've had. It's just a blast to play deeply into the game, conceive and implement a very long-term plan, and deal with the day-to-day opportunities and surprises. It's just an awesome amount of fun.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10017
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 2:35:13 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Regarding Peep Show, I have one division 100% prepped for a major target. I have about three divisions prepping for the beachhead target. They're all around 40% now, so they'll be minimally ready when it's time to go. I have another four or five divisions prepping for non-beachhead targets. They're mostly in the upper 30s. By the time they could conceivably reach their targets, they'll probably be at or close to 100%.

The beachhead target is open terrain that will be in proximity to Aparri's big airfield and others besides. John has the base strongly garrisoned, but it should be hard for him to make a protracted stand against the combined might of the Allied military forces available. He's going to need a Consolidate KB to assist. I bet he brings it in, eventually. This is going to be a tough, noisy and flashy campaign.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10018
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 2:40:11 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
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Status: offline 		It's easy for me to criticize John (and boy, have I done so) - but I do agree that there is a "method to his madness" that makes sense to him.

Now, that "sense" isn't helping him move towards the end-game that puts him in a good defensive position...I feel his raids are not necessarily "bad" but they are being used on such far-flung targets which don't actually prevent CR from continuing his operations.

A better strategy would be to consolidate his remaining naval assets closer to the HI & then try for smaller-scale raids (think operationally, not strategically) to actually disrupt your operations.

At least, in my mind, that makes much of a cohesive strategy.

< Message edited by paullus99 -- 4/25/2017 2:41:19 PM >

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10019
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/25/2017 2:47:13 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I have lots of auxiliary ships in theater now, but I can't detail them to Miri yet. That place is too hot.


I meant piling in all those repair ships to Manila. You would generate a ton of repair points and I am guessing it will become the primary sub base among other things.





(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10020
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