Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Via the maps, it appears John is trying to contain you in China & may even have thoughts of a counter-attack. I'm not sure, again, that he realizes just how dangerous a re-supplied and re-equipped Chinese Army is.

If you can continue to dump supplies through Rangoon or even closer to the front, then it becomes the Chinese Army doing most of the heavy lifting in pinning down John's troops & then you just bombing the hell out of anything that enters clear terrain.

Have fun!

In my experience Chinese troops aren't that great on attack...especially where the Japanese have had a chance to dig in and fortify. Where they do seem to do well is once supply is gone for Japan, and also if you can attack Japanese garrison troops -- the light divisions lacking in artillery.

Another option would be to do a broad front attack and everywhere and then follow up on the weak areas or just to start a huge bombardment campaign. And let us not forget about the Allied strength in the air....what does the Chinese Air Force look like?

There are so many fascinating tactical options open for both sides in this game...it is great to watch it unfold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is an unusual set of circumstances that limits what I can do in China. Logistics and supply are at the heart of the matter.

The western Allies have taken Foochow and Amoy in great shape with a strong army of six divisions. If I had lots of supply, I'd simply turn this in to the next big campaign, dumping supply and troops and moving to isolate and destroy John's army and them go north.

But I'm at the end of a year-long campaign and at the far end of an LOC that stretches from San Francisco to Oz to the DEI to Manila to Foochow. It takes time and a great deal of resources, at some risk, to push supply that far forward.

Peep Show took place with only about 100k supply - not enough to sustain a major campaign in China. Even when the next influx of supply arrives, I don't want to dump it at Foochow only to have it dribble out into the countryside.

Instead, Peep Show I was purposefully designed to take Foochow for strategic bombing purposes. I'm building the base big and will keep it well supplied. Peep Show II targets Formosa, where supply won't dribble away. Formosa gives me additional big airfields, denies them to John, and allows me to work on a major part of the Japanese army.

I want most of the supply and ground troops in the coming China campaign to come from Rangoon (the supply) and the western Allies (moving up from Indochina).

Once Formosa is in hand, the Allies will focus on two things for the balance of 1944: taking another strategic bombing platform closer to Japan (northern China, Korea, Home Islands, whatever); cleaning up the rear, taking important points/resource bases like Singapore, Batavia, Soerabaja, Balikpapan, Port Moresby and maybe Rabaul.

By the end of 1944, John's DEI holdings will be fragmented and essentially worthless. The Home Islands will be under seige by air, if not by land and sea also.

And the question really is-is there any need for a campaign at all in China. From here on the focus will be on taking airbases big enough and close enough to attack Japan directly. The road to victory leads to Tokyo. Central China really does not matter if you hold key positions on the coast. South Korea might be more significant. If I recall I got enough supply from Rangoon to supply my interior Chinese troops. Once I retook Chunking that is. That was enough to tie up a lot of Japanese troops in China.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is an unusual set of circumstances that limits what I can do in China. Logistics and supply are at the heart of the matter.

The western Allies have taken Foochow and Amoy in great shape with a strong army of six divisions. If I had lots of supply, I'd simply turn this in to the next big campaign, dumping supply and troops and moving to isolate and destroy John's army and them go north.

But I'm at the end of a year-long campaign and at the far end of an LOC that stretches from San Francisco to Oz to the DEI to Manila to Foochow. It takes time and a great deal of resources, at some risk, to push supply that far forward.

Peep Show took place with only about 100k supply - not enough to sustain a major campaign in China. Even when the next influx of supply arrives, I don't want to dump it at Foochow only to have it dribble out into the countryside.

Instead, Peep Show I was purposefully designed to take Foochow for strategic bombing purposes. I'm building the base big and will keep it well supplied. Peep Show II targets Formosa, where supply won't dribble away. Formosa gives me additional big airfields, denies them to John, and allows me to work on a major part of the Japanese army.

I want most of the supply and ground troops in the coming China campaign to come from Rangoon (the supply) and the western Allies (moving up from Indochina).

Once Formosa is in hand, the Allies will focus on two things for the balance of 1944: taking another strategic bombing platform closer to Japan (northern China, Korea, Home Islands, whatever); cleaning up the rear, taking important points/resource bases like Singapore, Batavia, Soerabaja, Balikpapan, Port Moresby and maybe Rabaul.

By the end of 1944, John's DEI holdings will be fragmented and essentially worthless. The Home Islands will be under seige by air, if not by land and sea also.

And the question really is-is there any need for a campaign at all in China. From here on the focus will be on taking airbases big enough and close enough to attack Japan directly. The road to victory leads to Tokyo. Central China really does not matter if you hold key positions on the coast. South Korea might be more significant. If I recall I got enough supply from Rangoon to supply my interior Chinese troops. Once I retook Chunking that is. That was enough to tie up a lot of Japanese troops in China.

In my experience, what I call "central China" (the area around Changsha) is probably necessary for good propagation of supplies to airbases on the coast - the bases near Shanghai, for example - from which to bomb Japan. Without the good roads/rails from up there, supplies seem to move slowly.

Dropping supplies on the coast at a Foochow-like area does do wonders, though.

quote:


Canoerebel

There is some risk in doing these things, but I think my analysis is correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I suspect that John is not by nature a VP guy. We know he's a Navy man by preference, and I suspect that simulating real war Japanese doctrine (albeit, beefed up by mods and bolstered by house rules) is psychologically important to him. Ordinarily, I think he'd have attacked by now, in keeping with the Bushido Code. I suspect that he hasn't done so partly in response to some excellent tutelage by smart Forumites urging him to work the VP system hard. John has responded, and the current score is a testament to how competitive VPs can make the game.

But I think John has backed so far away from his natural tendencies that it's affecting his enjoyment of the game. His VP-productive carrier raid in SoPac while Death Star was in the East China Sea was an example. And the current position of KB in the DEI, while the Allies have been invading coastal China and shutting down Formosa's airfields, is another good example. There are good VP reasons for doing what he's doing, but militarily he's contorted himself into a painful and dangerous position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I think you're being prudent, but I also think you worry a lot about what he's going to do when you don't need to any more. Was it Patton who said something like "Stop telling me what they're going to do. Tell me what you're going to do to kill the sumbitches"?

The game now is strat bombing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few weeks ago, I was pretty sure that KB was heading to Soerabaja to refuel. I considered sending Superforts to drop mines there. I elected not to because I wasn't sure whether aerial mining fell into the "no night bombing" rule. That expires in two days, I think (it might be one day). So I'll look for the right chance to do exactly what you're suggesting, Lowpe.

Paullus - you're right. From a military standpoint it's amazing how little fight John has put up for Indochina and Formosa (especially the latter). He must be solely hung up on the gaming aspect now - Victory Points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My comments about John focusing on Victory Points were not a criticism of his strategy. This is a game and the VP system is there for a reason. It works. I like the VP system and the way it provides the Japanese player with a fun way to work the end game. If I were a JFB, I'd work VP hard, twisting reality into all kinds of knots while working the system.

I suspect that John is not by nature a VP guy. We know he's a Navy man by preference, and I suspect that simulating real war Japanese doctrine (albeit, beefed up by mods and bolstered by house rules) is psychologically important to him. Ordinarily, I think he'd have attacked by now, in keeping with the Bushido Code. I suspect that he hasn't done so partly in response to some excellent tutelage by smart Forumites urging him to work the VP system hard. John has responded, and the current score is a testament to how competitive VPs can make the game.

But I think John has backed so far away from his natural tendencies that it's affecting his enjoyment of the game. His VP-productive carrier raid in SoPac while Death Star was in the East China Sea was an example. And the current position of KB in the DEI, while the Allies have been invading coastal China and shutting down Formosa's airfields, is another good example. There are good VP reasons for doing what he's doing, but militarily he's contorted himself into a painful and dangerous position.

Things can still change. There's a chance of a major action in the DEI in the next day or two that could help him a lot. But if the Allied carriers and supply TFs do link up with Death Star in two or three days, what does John do then? Does he keep working the VP angle, with KB steaming around the DEI looking for something to hit while the Allies reduce Formosa to ruins? Will he be satisfied working the VP angle, or at some point does he give in to the historic Japanese ethic? I'm guessing the latter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

John is also playing the clock. That route for your convoys plus the need to pull back major carrier assets to escort them chews up additional time. If you get sloppy trying to save time - well, how many VP for a 100 Liberty ships and/or Victory ships? Add a bunch of LCU to that. John can only threaten that extended SLOC with a navy. If and when he gives battle any sort of victory will make things easier and quicker for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I think you're being prudent, but I also think you worry a lot about what he's going to do when you don't need to any more. Was it Patton who said something like "Stop telling me what they're going to do. Tell me what you're going to do to kill the sumbitches"?

The game now is strat bombing.

It was Grant that said something like that when asked always about Lee this and Lee that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few weeks ago, I was pretty sure that KB was heading to Soerabaja to refuel. I considered sending Superforts to drop mines there. I elected not to because I wasn't sure whether aerial mining fell into the "no night bombing" rule. That expires in two days, I think (it might be one day). So I'll look for the right chance to do exactly what you're suggesting, Lowpe.

Paullus - you're right. From a military standpoint it's amazing how little fight John has put up for Indochina and Formosa (especially the latter). He must be solely hung up on the gaming aspect now - Victory Points.

With the Allies on the Chinese mainland in force, Indochina no longer has much strategic significance. John should have bailed out long ago and left a few garrisons. He might be playing for VP but those VP are gonna fall sooner or later. Formosa is a bit different but you can do a job on Japan with or without Formosa now. Hong Kong is nice because of the repair yard but since you hold Manila, it does not matter much either. Once Japan is severed from the DEI, the only thing that matters is big bases close to the HI-something that he just has to fight for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

John is also playing the clock. That route for your convoys plus the need to pull back major carrier assets to escort them chews up additional time. If you get sloppy trying to save time - well, how many VP for a 100 Liberty ships and/or Victory ships? Add a bunch of LCU to that. John can only threaten that extended SLOC with a navy. If and when he gives battle any sort of victory will make things easier and quicker for you.

The clock. The clock. I hate the clock!

You're right.

With the purchase CR has in various places there is a lot less of a need to haul log from PH or CONUS. One reason to focus on HK, and to a lesser extent, Canton. Max Manila's supply production, and the rest of the PI. Repair if needed. The Allies don't need to worry about LI breakeven. The repair investment can be made up in 1945 easily with fetched supply if it's critical. Right now supply on point is far more important than ROI by August 1945 on industry repair.

And the best way to get the KB to behave is to weld it to the pier. Take the rest of his fuel out in a concerted bombing effort.