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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:13:51 AM   
princep01

 

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I am still not convinced that aircraft shot down is a linking construct to a higher short term or long term outcome. Aircraft shotdown is clearly a metric in this game but to what end does a 1K advantage lead to victory? In my limited experience this this game I keep shooting down aircraft and the IJA/IJN aircraft keep coming no matter how many I shoot down. Thoughts?
 
Cracker, I would think it matters from a trio of different angles.  First, in response to a long term outcome, if one is playing for victory points, it matters.  Second, in both the short and long term outcome, destroying that differential of AC means a larger number of experienced IJ pilots are toast.  This can never help the IJ cause.  I'm sure John is adept at training and that he keeps a close eye on maintaining a high  level of trained pilots. However, I would think (never having played the IJ) that with losses like that in mid-42, he may be struggling to keep the quality of his pilots up.  Third, relating to a short term outcome, having a loss differential like that gives the Allies a better chance to achieve areas of local air superiority, thus potentially snowballing the IJ loss differential.

So, while the IJ AC do come on forever, maintaining or increasing a large loss differential like that can aid the Allies and offer the potential for creating a cascading effect on IJ aerial/pilot losses.   While your point has merit, I do think that kind of loss differential can be harmful to IJ ambitions. 

(in reply to princep01)
Post #: 1291
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:22:08 AM   
princep01

 

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Most of his OSS training was in northern Virginia.
 
Gee, given this, I'm surprised he tells you anything at all:).

Amazingly, our fathers are the same age (89) and living.  Dad served as an artillery FO, mostly with the 7th Armored.  He has exactly the same opinion about "cold" that your father exhibits.  Having nearly frozen to death at St Vith in the Battle of the Bulge, I understand why.  Like your dad, he sired a son who also became a lawyer.

(in reply to princep01)
Post #: 1292
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:59:45 AM   
Schlemiel

 

Posts: 154
Joined: 10/20/2011
Status: offline 		If anything, Greyjoy's first game pretty strongly points against a Japanese pilot spiral, at least in scenario 2 (not sure what the raw recruit numbers look like in RA, obviously). Constant aggression meant Greyjoy had a huge mass of super ace pilots, and the Japanese will still able to use superior numbers of good pilots (I think Rader said that beyond some specialty roles (like escort) he was using 70 airskill pilots for the most part) to take advantage of their airframe numbers. Greyjoy was shooting down 2 for 1 for pretty much the entire war, iirc, almost exclusively over his own bases.

(in reply to princep01)
Post #: 1293
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 2:25:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The air war is significant for several reasons:

1.  The points totals help me know that the Allies are fighting efficiently, which is important given limited replacement pools.
2.  John suffered a stinging repulse at Perth back in March, which has made him reluctant to stick his nose back into the major airfields.  That makes it much easier for me to park ships - including carriers - with some assurance of security (John's so aggressive that it's nice to build up some relatively "safe" zones).
3.  John suffered bad losses over Ramree Island and Akyab over the course of a week, so he's stood down his massed air force at Rangoon, making it easy for the Allies to bring in reinforcements.

(in reply to Schlemiel)
Post #: 1294
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 2:41:29 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Nunc pro tunc?

Fieri facias?

In limine?

Res ipsa loquitor?


LOL...i write those the whole day, every day

De quo, de qua or de quibus
Sub iudice
Contrariis rejectis
Ut supra
Tertium non datur
Contra mores
Contra ius
Obiter dictum

And so on.... How do u call these latin quotes in english?




archaic

_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 1295
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 2:46:15 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The RAF is notably absent from my top pilots list. In fact, the highest-ranking RAF pilots are in 96th and 97th places, with two kills each. I have six Canadian, six Australian and one Dutch pilot with more kills. The reason is simple - Canadian Kittyhawks ambushed a big IJ raid over Cold Bay a few days back, and Aussie Kittyhawks chewed up several IJ raids over Perth a few months back. The RAF is present at some forward bases in India, but thus far the P-40Es have been the workhorse in that theater.

The AVG will be retiring in three days. Pappy Boyington only has two kills to date. Cooper-Slipper, made famous in GreyJoy's first game, doesn't even seem to be present in my pilot roster. Perhaps John, the architect of this Mod, did some creative editing.

One final note: The Allies have been winning the air war, currently enjoying a lead of 1,200 in aircraft downed.





Boyington returns in the game as a squadron leader. There are some who think he outright lied about his victory total in China. A complex person no doubt. Interesting in that Maj Neale was my top ace in 42 in both of my campaigns. Retired as a Brigadier general in one and died in the air in the other.


< Message edited by crsutton -- 4/4/2013 2:54:56 PM >

_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 1296
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 2:53:28 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

One final note: The Allies have been winning the air war, currently enjoying a lead of 1,200 in aircraft downed.


I am still not convinced that aircraft shot down is a linking construct to a higher short term or long term outcome. Aircraft shotdown is clearly a metric in this game but to what end does a 1K advantage lead to victory? In my limited experience this this game I keep shooting down aircraft and the IJA/IJN aircraft keep coming no matter how many I shoot down. Thoughts?



Concur. In my scen 2 game with Viberpol I have destroyed close to 40k of his aircraft while losing less than 30k of my own. It has had no impact on his ability to field a first rate air force. Better give up any idea of winning an attrition battle as a path to victory in this game. However, the Allied air force is superior across the board and can win any battle at the point of contact in 1945. Numbers don't matter so much.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 1297
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:19:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I have no illusions about "winning the air war" in the sense that the Allies did in the real war by forcing Japan to its knees.  I've played deep into 1945 (vs. Miller) and read enough AARs (GreyJoy's, in particular) to know that the supply of Japanese pilots and airframes is nearly limitless. 

Now, on a more serious note, I suddenly lost 220 PP this turn for no reason that is obvious to me.  I went from 1853 to 1533, which is significant.  I was just a turn from buying 41st USA Division, but now I'm more like eight turns!  I have no overdue ships or aircraft squadrons.  There weren't any messages.  The only out-of-the-ordinary event during the day was that some of my carrier aircraft squadrons re-sized from 27 to 36 aircraft.  Does that take a PP draw?


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 1298
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:36:45 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

One final note: The Allies have been winning the air war, currently enjoying a lead of 1,200 in aircraft downed.


I am still not convinced that aircraft shot down is a linking construct to a higher short term or long term outcome. Aircraft shotdown is clearly a metric in this game but to what end does a 1K advantage lead to victory? In my limited experience this this game I keep shooting down aircraft and the IJA/IJN aircraft keep coming no matter how many I shoot down. Thoughts?



Concur. In my scen 2 game with Viberpol I have destroyed close to 40k of his aircraft while losing less than 30k of my own. It has had no impact on his ability to field a first rate air force. Better give up any idea of winning an attrition battle as a path to victory in this game. However, the Allied air force is superior across the board and can win any battle at the point of contact in 1945. Numbers don't matter so much.


You have frame my point well! I think there is some sort of linking construct between measuring local air victories and results leading to X..Y..Z .. and as a result the total air loss ratios reflect this .. and maybe this leads eventually to victory ... but I am now more convinced then ever that is no direct linking constuct .. that is for example . I see an airwar ratio of X:Y and without looking at the map I can say with certainty the Allies are winning the way. I do think there is some linking constructs for total air losses from the view of the IJ. I contend this is because Allied air reinforements are finite and a true zero exists [even though it would be pretty interesting to reach ] . So an IJ player measuring total Allied air losses as a % of total availible might be an indicator. But not the other way around. I might propose that the Allies might measure total Allies aircraft lost in respect to time and measure the rate of losses as an overall adherence to a plan to have a certian number of platforms availible at certain milestones.

OK now for somebody to answer why CR has lost 220 PP's! More so without any messages in the Combat Report

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/4/2013 3:37:36 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 1299
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 3:54:50 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Actually it's 320 PP (or 370 if you count the additional 50 i would have received on the day).



_____________________________

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Post #: 1300
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:00:46 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The only out-of-the-ordinary event during the day was that some of my carrier aircraft squadrons re-sized from 27 to 36 aircraft.  Does that take a PP draw?


Good question. Dunno. Did they also upgrade airframes outside of their programmed path?

_____________________________


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Post #: 1301
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:03:03 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Actually it's 320 PP (or 370 if you count the additional 50 i would have received on the day).




I do think that PP's should be accounted for in the game like a balance sheet. Therefore if something unusual happends it will be quite clear. What is most unusual in this case is nothing in the Combat Reporter -> Operations Report under misc?

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 1302
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:03:17 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
[/quote]

Boyington returns in the game as a squadron leader. There are some who think he outright lied about his victory total in China. A complex person no doubt. Interesting in that Maj Neale was my top ace in 42 in both of my campaigns. Retired as a Brigadier general in one and died in the air in the other.

[/quote]

He never leaves the game as a pilot if you transfer him out to reserve before the AVG withdraws. In fact all the AVG pilots are far too valuable to lose by letting them leave with the squadrons. I empty the squadrons of pilots to the reserves, then I withdraw the AVG. A few weeks later they all transfer in to the new fighter wing that arrives in India (can't remember the number as I'm at work) and I have top notch pilots in Burma, a theater that usually sees not stop air activity.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 1303
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:03:32 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Uh oh, I wonder if that's it???  Yesterday, I upgraded a few squadrons to different airframes - B-25 to B-17 and a couple of Audax/Wapiti type frames to Blenheims or such.  I bet that's it.  Yikes, I've skewered myself!

P.S.  But at least I know what happend now instead of being totally bumfuzzled.  Thanks, Poultry Lad.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1304
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:06:12 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Uh oh, I wonder if that's it???  Yesterday, I upgraded a few squadrons to different airframes - B-25 to B-17 and a couple of Audax/Wapiti type frames to Blenheims or such.  I bet that's it.  Yikes, I've skewered myself!

P.S.  But at least I know what happend now instead of being totally bumfuzzled.  Thanks, Poultry Lad.


AAAAAAHHHHHHH!! I have never played PDU=on .... good lesson .. !!!

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 1305
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:07:11 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
P.S.  But at least I know what happend now instead of being totally bumfuzzled.  Thanks, Poultry Lad.


I think we should allow for the possibility of both your knowing what happened now and also being bumfuzzled in a more permanent sense. They're two separate causality loops here, Dan.

_____________________________


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Post #: 1306
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:09:29 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Some day, Rooster Man, I'm gonna play you and kick yer sorry rear end half way to Manitoba.

...Wait, you already ARE half way to Manitoba!

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1307
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:12:35 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Some day, Rooster Man, I'm gonna play you and kick yer sorry rear end half way to Manitoba.


Pfft...you and what Army? [looks at Allied OOB]

Oh. Never mind.

_____________________________


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Post #: 1308
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:46:48 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The only out-of-the-ordinary event during the day was that some of my carrier aircraft squadrons re-sized from 27 to 36 aircraft.  Does that take a PP draw?


Good question. Dunno. Did they also upgrade airframes outside of their programmed path?


Not all off path upgrades cost PPs and the ones that do clearly state the cost when you choose to go off the path and prompt you for a confirmation.

Hard not to notice you're spending for this when you do it.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 1309
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 4:50:01 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I didn't notice, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.  I now recall that changing 2EB to 4EB is one of the instances when the PP expenditure is invoked, and I swapped a B25 squadron to B-17s.  That has to be be what happened.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 1310
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 5:20:25 PM   
artuitus_slith

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline 		This airframe discussion brings up a slightly off-topic idea I had to balance the air war a bit. Currently the Japanese can outproduce the allies significantly, and there is nothing the allies can do to increase there production. What I would like to see is the ability to 'buy' airframes with political points.

This could be accomplished in two ways. The first and simplest way would be to assign a cost per engine per airframe. Something like (3xE)xA=N where e=engines, a=airframes, and n=number of political points. So a fighter would cost 3pts per airframe, while a twin engine would cost 6pts, 4e 12pts.

Alternately they could assign a point value to each type of aircraft in the game, so a p40 costs less than a p47 ect. This would be more labor intensive, but could also be more tailored so that a p40 costs less in late 43 onwards ect, to represent the fact that these aircraft were being brought offline in the ETO/MTO and were available for re-assingment. This is just an example, older model bombers ect would also be available for 'hire'.

Overall this should help balance out the air war a bit more, while not giving the allies a huge advantage, after all there are many things the allies have to spend PPs on to prosecute the war, but having the ability to get another 25 p40s early in the game (at a cost) might be worth the investment. Just a thought.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1311
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 5:33:13 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Uh oh, I wonder if that's it???  Yesterday, I upgraded a few squadrons to different airframes - B-25 to B-17 and a couple of Audax/Wapiti type frames to Blenheims or such.  I bet that's it.  Yikes, I've skewered myself!

P.S.  But at least I know what happend now instead of being totally bumfuzzled.  Thanks, Poultry Lad.


For sure the Audax to Blenheim costs PPs. But there is a warning screen you have to click "Yes" on to allow it. Did you rush past without reading?

These PP charges to change plane type were instituted at least a year ago in a patch. I still get yanked up short every time I get one of those nags. Old habits, etc.

Edit: see you copped to it later on.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/4/2013 5:34:41 PM >

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The Moose

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Post #: 1312
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 6:16:43 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		6/30/42
 
NoPac:  The Japanese invaders at Dutch Harbor attack and fail to take the base, thus illustrating a fundamental and recurring weakness in John's approach to invasions.  He brings two assault divisions totaling 350 AV.  No support, like combat engineers or artillery.  Lots of pre-invasion bombardments - a good thing.  But the meager Allied defense has an unadjusted assault value of three behind three forts.  The result?  A 1:2 deliberate attack that doesn't touch the forts.  How do you attack a base with an AV of three and zero supply and not take it?  He'll take it soon enough, but...seriously.

CenPac:  KB is steaming far to the SE of Tarawa in empty waters.  I like it where it is. 

SoPac:  More bombarding of Luganville. 

Australia:  The carriers and escorts arrive at Melbourne for some much needed rest.  Two Devastator squadrons swap out for Avengers.  My ships need about ten days in the yards to work out all the kinks before I move them...assuming I move them.

Bay of Bengal:  The flow of men and supply into Ramree continues.  The loss of 370 political points to ill-timed aircraft upgrading hurts!  Now it's another six or seven days before 41st Div. gets purchased...which in turn makes it that much longer before I accumulate the PPs to buy the troops bound for the western Aluetian invasion.  Ack!  Res ipsa loquitor.

China:  Looks good.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 1313
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 6:53:41 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Hi CR - A quick question if I may. What is the supply situation like for your units lined up in the trees in Burma? Given the lack of roads/trails there, can they be sustained in those locations until you're ready to move forward?

Regards, Paul

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Post #: 1314
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 7:18:11 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Most turns the units are fully supplied.  I just checked and found that supply levels range from 95% to 105% of need.

I don't know what would happen if I advanced into the open terrain during the monsoonal period.  I'm erring on the side of assuming getting supply to troops might be tough.

My long term expectation is that supply will flow forward from what will be a line of big bases - Ramree, Akyab, Cox's, Chittagong, Imphal and others - at least when the monsoon ends, but perhaps earlier.

(in reply to pws1225)
Post #: 1315
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 7:23:13 PM   
V I Lenin

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/30/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Most turns the units are fully supplied.  I just checked and found that supply levels range from 95% to 105% of need.

I don't know what would happen if I advanced into the open terrain during the monsoonal period.  I'm erring on the side of assuming getting supply to troops might be tough.

My long term expectation is that supply will flow forward from what will be a line of big bases - Ramree, Akyab, Cox's, Chittagong, Imphal and others - at least when the monsoon ends, but perhaps earlier.


Monsoon is as far as I know not affecting LCUs in non-base hexes (or enemy base hexes), but instead only bases themselves.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1316
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 7:43:03 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		The air war is significant in the negative, IMHO. The Japanese can use their early pilot and airframe quality and quantity advantages to engage the Allies in attritional warfare, which if successful drains Allied pools but also results in an upward spiral for Japanese pilots and a corresponding downward spiral for Allied pilots. When this happens, Japan gets into the mid-war with crazy good pilots that either slow the inevitable Allied air dominance as later generation airframes come online or a pool of Flying Circus types that can be saved for decisive moments later on.

By avoiding this result, Dan has achieved something, IMHO.

_____________________________


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Post #: 1317
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 8:13:22 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V I Lenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Most turns the units are fully supplied.  I just checked and found that supply levels range from 95% to 105% of need.

I don't know what would happen if I advanced into the open terrain during the monsoonal period.  I'm erring on the side of assuming getting supply to troops might be tough.

My long term expectation is that supply will flow forward from what will be a line of big bases - Ramree, Akyab, Cox's, Chittagong, Imphal and others - at least when the monsoon ends, but perhaps earlier.


Monsoon is as far as I know not affecting LCUs in non-base hexes (or enemy base hexes), but instead only bases themselves.



I might propose that it is sort of indirect. The best supply with the least spoilage comes from the closest base. Kaylemyo and Wazzup represent two good examples. If the overall supplies that move is cut in half it is harder to accumlate supplies that eventually propagate forward, and this propagation seems to me to require an overage of supplies at bases somewhere in the chain of things. But V 1 Lennin I beleive has the point that once supplies have propagated forward I have seen no constraints on supplying LCU's. in the monsoon seasons.


< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/4/2013 8:14:53 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to V I Lenin)
Post #: 1318
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 8:24:59 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

I now recall that changing 2EB to 4EB is one of the instances when the PP expenditure is invoked, and I swapped a B25 squadron to B-17s.


I'm a bit confused by that choice. Do you really need long-range bombers at this point? Why not wait a few months for the B-24's?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1319
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/4/2013 8:42:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The squadron only had two B-25s with no replacements in the pool.  I only have three B-17 squadrons in India, with 100 planes in the pools, so this seemed like a good way to continue building my air force.  I have more B-17 squadrons en route from East Coast via Capetown.  I'm gonna need them when the time comes to punish Mandalay or Rangoon.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 1320
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