RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 3:57:16 AM

Canoerebel

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Yes, good thought. Many ports have 5 or 10 or so small fry. To this point it hasn't been worth targeting them since strategic bombing offered a more direct return. But now that is a viable source of points. Thanks for the suggestion.

(in reply to BillBrown)

Post #: 13831

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 5:55:37 AM

JeffroK

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One "problem" with the VP system is that it is "calibrated" against Scen1.

The many mods which give the JFB extra toys still has the VP based on Scen1, I'm not sure how to go about it but the AFB should receive more points for capturing "Inner Defence Zone" bases in FIC, Taiwan, China, Korea etc.

Cant see 3-1 in 1944 unless the JFB was playing against me.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13832

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:54:31 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

One "problem" with the VP system is that it is "calibrated" against Scen1.

The many mods which give the JFB extra toys still has the VP based on Scen1, I'm not sure how to go about it but the AFB should receive more points for capturing "Inner Defence Zone" bases in FIC, Taiwan, China, Korea etc.

Cant see 3-1 in 1944 unless the JFB was playing against me.

This doesn't seem like as much of a problem to me as both sides know when they enter into the game that it's a tougher job and stacked more in Japan's favour. The resources though are not different and so Japan must also still run the economy and by the end that can be a scrape with more tools on the board.

The Japanese might hold the Allies off from strat bombing for slightly longer, and do slightly more in destroying Allied stuffs, but they also have more VPs on the table to harvest. There are more ships, more planes and more troops, and so by the end I think the Allies just have more points from those extras.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 13833

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 1:08:41 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

4/27/45

... Home Islands: The Allies have milked southern Japan about as much as possible. To finish the game, I'll have to take on John's well-defended bases in middle Japan. Death Star might lend a hand.

Not necessarily ... especially if you anticipate heavy air losses. Remember each downed 4E gives Japan 2 VPs.

Singapore promises a good VP harvest. Currently it provides Japan with 540 VPs. If it's supply level drops to below it's required level, there is a drop in the VPs credited to Japan.

Better still is if Singapore becomes Allied owned when not only does Japan lose all 540 VPs but the Allies gain 2430 VPs. In that scenario the VP equation shown in post #13827 would change from Japan 77 884 Allied 150 520 (an Allied shortfall for auto victory of 52488) to Japan 77 340 Allied 152 950 (a shortfall of 1738). To which the VPs gained from destroying enemy devices in the process of capturing Singapore would be added.

In short capturing Singapore negates the need to conduct a costly air campaign over the rest of Japan.

If enemy air resistance over Tokyo et al is not fierce then the strategic bombing would do. But I suspect it will be very fierce until air superiority is achieved. That could take some time and may well see progress towards auto victory crawl until air superiority is reached.

On the other hand enemy air resistance over Singapore will be less fierce plus the more air combat occurs, the quicker local supply gets depleted which benefits the VP equation plus makes it easier to capture the base. Provided you have the infrastructure a shift in the air offensive away from Japan towards Singapore could be very smart. Your opponent will not risk weakening his air defences over Tokyo et al, particularly if you keep the DS in the vicinity, but you can shift 2Es to hit Singapore AF and Port to destroy supply etc. Don't overlook fighter night raids against Singapore as Japan will not move NF units from Japan.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13834

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 1:32:44 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks for those thoughts, Alfred. I've been mulling over how to "close the deal" - how to gross 5k or 6k points without giving John too many. Singers and Strategic Bombing and the inefficiencies of the air war have been the focus of my thoughts, with Peiping and Korea probably being the keys to the door. Peiping offers base points and points for IJ troops. Korea offers a lot of points for IJ troops.

Here's the latest on Singers. John is reinforcing there.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 13835

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 1:42:50 PM

Canoerebel

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There is a wildcard in the VP ratio that might work in favor of the Allies...I think: Ship losses.

There is often a lag between ships going down and the event being "confirmed" by the AI, with the points being awarded. The Allies haven't lost anything meaningful in ships in a long, long time. But Japan has lost a lot of ships recently, I think. There might be hundreds of points not yet credited in that category. Fog of War leaves me uncertain. Yesterday's clash between the Allied CL/DD TF and the Japanese replenishment TF is a good example. Perhaps a dozen high-value AOs and TKs were sunk or received heavy damage. I received credit for three of them but there's a chance eight or ten went under.

I'm interesting in seeing how FoW affects the AV calculation, if it does at all.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13836

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 1:51:27 PM

Alfred

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Although fewer VPs will be in the equation Peiping is certainly a viable alternative, but in that case you must capture Peiping as the loss of VPs to Japan from undersupply is quite small. Plus you will have to ensure overland supply gets there and that will require all Allied bases in the LOC be fully supplied. Can you do that without redeploying the DS away from Japan and the latent threats it currently poses?

As to the Singapore garrison being reinforced. The more mouths to feed, the greater the strain on the local supply depot.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13837

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 2:00:55 PM

Canoerebel

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I doubt I can get full supply to Peiping. Even if I dropped 500k supply at Shanghai, it would go hither and thither and only a bit would end up at Peiping. Some players could massage the flow and get it there but that's beyond my capability.

The Allied army in China will proceed forward until victory comes. I think China will contribute another 1k VPs to the total in the next week to ten days.

The enemy army in Korea is 150k. John's army will be eradicated within the next ten days, providing that DS does it's job of preventing a Dunkirk. And at least 500 points should come from base building. I think 1k to 2.5k points will be scored in Korea in the next ten days.

I doubt there's time left to handle Singers in such a way that it will really contribute (though I'm setting the table just in case the war drags on). So the remaining points needed will have to come from strategic bombing or the sinking of enemy ships. BillBrown's port-targeting idea was a good one. There's also a chance John will Banzai, prefering to go out with a bang rather than with a whimper, though that's unlikely.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 13838

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 2:15:07 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I doubt I can get full supply to Peiping. Even if I dropped 500k supply at Shanghai, it would go hither and thither and only a bit would end up at Peiping. Some players could massage the flow and get it there but that's beyond my capability.

The Allied army in China will proceed forward until victory comes. I think China will contribute another 1k VPs to the total in the next week to ten days.

The enemy army in Korea is 150k. John's army will be eradicated within the next ten days, providing that DS does it's job of preventing a Dunkirk. And at least 500 points should come from base building. I think 1k to 2.5k points will be scored in Korea in the next ten days.

I doubt there's time left to handle Singers in such a way that it will really contribute (though I'm setting the table just in case the war drags on). So the remaining points needed will have to come from strategic bombing or the sinking of enemy ships. BillBrown's port-targeting idea was a good one. There's also a chance John will Banzai, prefering to go out with a bang rather than with a whimper, though that's unlikely.

Not sure if this would make an adequate difference but keep in mind that pulling out all but minimal troops/equipment in the city and turning off all building will minimize supply needed.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13839

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 2:18:38 PM

Canoerebel

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That's a good idea too.

On a related note, if time remains in the game, that 11,000+ Allied army will soon be on the Manchuria border. Russian activation would be interesting. But I don't think there's enough time to trigger the interesting medium term things that might've happened - Russian activation, Singers falling, invasion of Java...and the invasion of Japan (all troops in Korea are prepping at about 50%, and Korea will be finished within two weeks).

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 13840

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 3:14:25 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the war, the Allies torched Tokyo from two bases: Saipan and Tinian. If the Allies largely relied on those two bases in the game, they'd lose 85% of their B-29s and score about 1,000 strategic points, if that. The Japanese player would clean his clock. Production of advanced air frames and pilot training are the main reasons, of course.

Now sir, this is hyperbole. All that needs to be said is that the historical strategic bombing campaign from the Marianas is impossible to replicate.

I'd guess that a campaign from the Marianas only could accumulate perhaps 10,000 VPs if you tried really, really hard. And were patient.

Maybe 15,000 if you A-bombed Tokyo once or twice.

And I don't think it would cost 85% of the B-29s. Maybe 50%...

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13841

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 3:28:18 PM

Canoerebel

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Hyperbole probably requires conscious exaggeration. I'm not consciously exaggerating, though I may be mistaken due to ignorance.

There may be Allied players that could work from Tinian and Saipan to more effect against an experienced IJ player, but I doubt I could. I'm basing this on what I've experienced from much closer. Granted I'm new at all this, but enemy night fighters and flak make night missions pretty tough. Enemy fighters and flak make daytime missions at extreme range prohibitively tough. All this assumes that Japan has a robust number of fighters and pilots, and if the Allied player is bombing from that far away, Japan probably does.

I think 85% isn't far off the mark. The 1k points might be. 10k points might be possible. Maybe.

Bottom line: bombing from those two bases would bear no resemblance to the real war, which was the point I was trying to make.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/15/2018 3:29:00 PM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13842

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 3:29:39 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the war, the Allies torched Tokyo from two bases: Saipan and Tinian. If the Allies largely relied on those two bases in the game, they'd lose 85% of their B-29s and score about 1,000 strategic points, if that. The Japanese player would clean his clock. Production of advanced air frames and pilot training are the main reasons, of course.

Now sir, this is hyperbole. All that needs to be said is that the historical strategic bombing campaign from the Marianas is impossible to replicate.

I'd guess that a campaign from the Marianas only could accumulate perhaps 10,000 VPs if you tried really, really hard. And were patient.

Maybe 15,000 if you A-bombed Tokyo once or twice.

And I don't think it would cost 85% of the B-29s. Maybe 50%...

I'm not so sure CR's comment is hyperbole, especially if you subtract the 4EB losses from the VP's.

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13843

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 3:53:56 PM

paullus99

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John has put up a good fight & certainly made CR pay for his education in Strategic Bombing - but we are looking at a campaign that has already passed the tipping point.

It appears that CR should, outside of a couple of bloody initial days, overwhelm the remaining fighter strength in the Home Islands and put Tokyo et. al. into the crosshairs fairly quickly.

There are multiple paths to auto-victory now, no reason not to try out a few to see which is the most efficient.

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(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 13844

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 4:57:20 PM

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quote:

It appears that CR should, outside of a couple of bloody initial days, overwhelm the remaining fighter strength in the Home Islands and put Tokyo et. al. into the crosshairs fairly quickly.

Has an allied player ever managed to gain air supremacy over the home islands against an experienced IJ player?

I've read a fair number of AARs and I don't recall ever seeing it happen.

(in reply to paullus99)

Post #: 13845

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 5:02:35 PM

Canoerebel

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I'm pretty close to that point. Not quite there, but given about three weeks I think I could achieve it.

(in reply to DW)

Post #: 13846

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 5:06:43 PM

Canoerebel

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4/28/45

Intel Screen: Given nearly all B-29s stood down, most B-24s stood down, and the big Osaka sweep got scrubbed by weather, this was a pretty good day.

The points scoring is about over in China. The Japanese army evaporated awfully fast there. Peiping, as noted in previous posts, in this next hope for points.

Korea is shaping up to be a Stalingrad for Japan in the near term.

Weather permitting, tomorrow could be interesting in the Home Islands. The big sweep scheduled vs. Osaka and most B-29s set to hit Ominato port at night. John has a large number of ships there.

When April began, I thought the table was set for the Allies to score alot of points. I thought achieving AV was possible but unlikely unless John banzaiid his fleet. I thought it would be challenging but possible to get the AV spread beneath 5k. That was achieved today.

I'll post the bigger picture screen after lunch.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13847

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:06:12 PM

Canoerebel

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4/28/45

The Inveterate Raider: Even though KB stumbled through all kinds of tripwires two days ago, John is continuing the raid. KB sank three picket YMS today. There's nothing else out here. Now what does he do?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13848

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:07:48 PM

Canoerebel

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I suppose there's no way he'd raid Pearl. He doesn't have any oilers left (I think).

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Post #: 13849

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:15:06 PM

Canoerebel

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4/28/45

DEI: Kendari fell two days ago. That may be the last significant event in this section unless John sends combat ships or carriers raiding here.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13850

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:25:08 PM

Canoerebel

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4/28/45

Singapore: The Allied army marches on Singapore tomorrow. If things go right, the crossing shock attack should take place on May 1.

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Post #: 13851

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 6:42:10 PM

Canoerebel

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4/28/45

Asia: An Allied army began the advance on Peiping today.

Korea: Masan fell today; key attack at Chinhae (adjacen to Fusan) tomorrow.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13852

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 7:06:43 PM

BillBrown

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Hmmm, operation Bill Brown, it is a bit more and further than I was thinking, but it should be a big surprise to John, if they fly.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13853

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:05:17 PM

paullus99

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Could be lots of nice little points to pick up there......

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Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to BillBrown)

Post #: 13854

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:13:51 PM

Canoerebel

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Next turn is in and John had modest success deploying lots of fighters to Nagasaki and downing some Death Star strike aircraft in raids against riff-raff at and near Fusan (I'm trying to balance between closing down Fusan and avoiding CAP traps, a delicate dance that sometimes doesn't work). John's feeling pretty good, sending these emails:

"Though it irritates, can I let lose my probably last, plaintive BANZAI!??!! Took your advice from a few emails ago�" [Well, maybe he learned something, but I bet you in ten minutes he reverts to his former position that everything is broken.]

A follow-up email: "Just so you know�I don�t have 1500 Fighters in the Home Islands but about 800�" [I know - many of the fighter numbers revealed by 9/10 detection may actually represent kamikazes, but the larger point is that I have to allow for you to have that many fighters since that's what extensive recon reports over the course of many turns.]

(in reply to paullus99)

Post #: 13855

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:20:19 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty close to that point. Not quite there, but given about three weeks I think I could achieve it.

I expect you might be able to. Airframes are probably low but you've been seeing worse pilots. Tat being said, all the good ones are at Singapore and the remaining Japan bases. You probably have more. You would need the Deathstar, and you would lose a bunch of Hellcats, but that would allow your good stuff to prevail. Airframes are one thing but his pilot pools have been ridden hard and those cant be rebuilt fast

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 13856

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:22:24 PM

Canoerebel

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Oddly enough, the Hellcats are now performing well against Sam, George and Frank, even over John's good bases.'

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Post #: 13857

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:23:05 PM

Canoerebel

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4/29/45

Torbay vs. Ibuki: Miss, darn it!

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Post #: 13858

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:30:15 PM

Canoerebel

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4/29/45

Near Fusan: USN DDs handle enemy DDs. Something's up, because BB Kirishima and an IJN CA are sighted nearby by USN float planes.

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Post #: 13859

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/15/2018 8:47:16 PM

Canoerebel

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4/29/45

Battle of Chinhae: This is the most important land engagement of the day. Allied attack comes off at a very high 1:1, drops forts to 2 and inflicts disproportionate damage on the Japanese. Allies will shock attack here tomorrow.

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Post #: 13860

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