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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/23/2018 7:32:35 PM   
ny59giants


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Going uphill when 'gassed' is bad enough. It's worse trying to come down a decent incline and your legs are in such bad shape that you almost cannot slow yourself down and risk injury.

How many days does it take your legs to recover from this kind of effort?

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/23/2018 8:48:20 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Before the pioneers came along, the Cherokee Indians probably settled this area. There is widespread belief in Georgia that the Cherokee bent trees like this one to mark trails or landmarks. They didn't. Bent trees are natural.





That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/23/2018 9:24:44 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 13982
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/23/2018 10:36:12 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.

More likely the tree was little more than a springy sapling when a large tree or branch fell on it and bent it to the ground. The sapling kept on growing while the dead wood on top of it slowly rotted away. Eventually the sapling became a tree that still held the shape it had for years growing up.

But the native lore is interesting too, much like I learned the silverleaf on the NZ flag was a fern that the Maori used when they moved at night. The underside of the fern showed silver in the moonlight so the Maori bent the fern over as they moved to mark their trail - most often when them moved in on enemy tribes and needed a marker for the escape route.

BTW I have never heard of the Cofaqui people, unless some spell it Cofefe ...

_____________________________

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Post #: 13983
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/23/2018 11:39:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Going uphill when 'gassed' is bad enough. It's worse trying to come down a decent incline and your legs are in such bad shape that you almost cannot slow yourself down and risk injury.

How many days does it take your legs to recover from this kind of effort?


You're right, the downhill at the end was terrible.

I'm usually ready to go by the next day, though I often have what I'd characterize as mild soreness for two days following a particularly long hike. If I've been consistently jogging in the mountains, it's far better than the occasions where I've slacked off for several weeks. Then the soreness can be far more than mild.

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Post #: 13984
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/23/2018 11:42:01 PM   
Canoerebel


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Regarding bent trees, neither the Cherokee nor their predecessors bent trees to mark trails or anything else. There is a large movement contending they did, but that movement is wrong scientifically and historically.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 2:14:50 AM   
JeffroK


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Must have been plenty of Cherokee in OZ if it was true!

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Post #: 13986
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 6:00:01 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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5/7/45

Asia: Massive Allied army advancing in good order on Peiping.

End of War Scenario: John has discontinued opposition over Osaka. There's enough strat bombing points there to provide what's needed for AV over the next three to six days if he doesn't resume opposition, so I'll continue to target the city.

The real question is whether he will commit Death Star and his kamikazes before war's end. If not, the war will end with a whimper without the Divine Wind ever being used. That's just weird. He's still engaged in what's going on, so I think he may be organizing the "Grand Finale." On that chance, I'm changing up the look of things tomorrow. The main change is Death Star moving north to lend a hand with the budding enemy counteroffensive in Manchuria.

I think the war will end with the Allies besieging Singapore, Fusan and Peiping, after already conquering most of mainland Asia plus Formosa and Luzon, with more than half of Home Island industry destroyed, and with KB and kamikazes waiting for the right chance to defend the Empire.




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/24/2018 6:31:43 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 10:26:39 AM   
aciddrinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Before the pioneers came along, the Cherokee Indians probably settled this area. There is widespread belief in Georgia that the Cherokee bent trees like this one to mark trails or landmarks. They didn't. Bent trees are natural.





That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.


Maybe just wind make this? In Poland we have forest whit such trees.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crooked_Forest

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 12:32:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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Interesting post.

My first thought when I saw your post was: snow. And the Wiki article notes that's one of the theories.

When these trees were saplings and whippet thin, there might've been ten inches of hard-packed snow on the ground. Then heavy snow or ice bent the saplings over from the point of the hard-packed snow. Since they were so thin, they yielded to the bending without breaking. After the snow or ice melted, they remained bent (saplings will do that when bent for a few hours or days) and the leaders resumed vertical growth, creating the oddly curved trees. (Or perhaps the Cherokee were responsible.)

The difference between these trees and the one in my photo is that these are the original "trunks." In my photo, the original tree was bent horizontally and, as BBfanboy noted, died and rotted away to the point on the trunk where a new leader had grown vertically from the side of the tree.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 2:16:51 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/8/45

Siege of Peiping: Opening Allied bombardment shows Peiping held by two divisions at 2/3rds strength. Allies have 2k AV in the hex and 9k AV within two hexes. If the war lasted long enough, Peiping would fall quickly. But I think strategic bombing will end the war before the bulk of the Allied army arrives and attacks.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 2:21:11 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/8/45

Intel Screen: John posted strong CAP at Osaka but Allied fighters handled it efficiently and in the right order. Then the bombers came in and hit the strategic targets hard, though points scored were less than I'd expected.

Overall, the turn is a strong one, yielding about 1/3rd of the points needed for AV. At this rate, the war would last about two more days, though variations in yield (and the possibility of enemy counterattacks) might push that back several days or more. But it seems like the end is nigh.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 2:35:25 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/8/45

Air Losses: Most days, the air war is tight, but today was a little Allied victory. Sweeps over Osaka and unescorted enemy strikes against shipping at Moppo protected by heavy CAP were the two main contributors.

John hasn't really employed his air force offensively in a long time. He fights defensively (CAP traps) but avoid air strikes against well-protected Allied targets. This results in a low-scoring and tight air war except when the Allies knock out alot of his aircraft on the ground, which happened last week a couple of times.

John's air war strategy dovetails with his naval strategy - keep his assets out of harm's way to avoid the risk of major losses. The payoff is a slow, strangling death in which neither air force nor navy have materially impeded the strategic bombing campaign and the ruination of Japanese armies in China and Korea. In the end, he preferred a slow, strangling death to a costly Banzai climax. He drew things out materially longer but never used his kamikazes or carriers offensively to defend the Empire and to pay tribute to the Bushido Code.




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/24/2018 2:36:38 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 2:40:51 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/8/45

Osaka: Allies keep going to this well. Projections indicate there's just enough oil here to propel the machine to victory.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 3:14:04 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/8/45

Asia: Lots of wheels in motion, with the Allies in position to wipe out all resistance and claim all of mainland Asia within a month. But there never was time for everything, as Byron Herbert Reece put it.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 4:48:24 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.

More likely the tree was little more than a springy sapling when a large tree or branch fell on it and bent it to the ground. The sapling kept on growing while the dead wood on top of it slowly rotted away. Eventually the sapling became a tree that still held the shape it had for years growing up.

But the native lore is interesting too, much like I learned the silverleaf on the NZ flag was a fern that the Maori used when they moved at night. The underside of the fern showed silver in the moonlight so the Maori bent the fern over as they moved to mark their trail - most often when them moved in on enemy tribes and needed a marker for the escape route.

BTW I have never heard of the Cofaqui people, unless some spell it Cofefe ...



Funny, the kingdom south of Cofaqui was Cofa. All which have multiple spellings.

quote:

showed silver in the moonlight
similar to Ranger Eyes.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 4:49:01 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Regarding bent trees, neither the Cherokee nor their predecessors bent trees to mark trails or anything else. There is a large movement contending they did, but that movement is wrong scientifically and historically.



"is wrong scientifically and historically." Since you are so familiar with that tell us about it. And their teepees

The difference between "Landmark" trees and "Sign" trees?
What is your opinion of the Rutherford Survey Expedition after the Revolutionary War and the Beech tree they encountered?
The Indian way of life experiences of Simon Kenton?

My house sits on a Indian mound and I have a large number of artifacts. I like to learn about this era.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/24/2018 7:16:23 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 5:48:55 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:


I think the war will end ... with KB and kamikazes waiting for the right chance to defend the Empire.


Amazing. Epitaph for the Japanese Empire.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 6:08:21 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

After about 10 miles of hiking in record-breaking heat with no hardwood canopy to ward off the sunlight, the trail turned steeply up the side of Tatum Lead, following an old wagon road. The trail climbed roughly 1,000 feet over the next mile and a quarter. It was tough going. I was gassed. At the end of the climb, the trail topped off in a gap atop Tatum Lead. Here my hiking buddy is approaching that gap. We still had about four miles to go and I was already gassed.





When walking in the woods if one smells 3day old bacon grease, what thoughts?




< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/25/2018 1:56:04 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 7:28:40 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.

More likely the tree was little more than a springy sapling when a large tree or branch fell on it and bent it to the ground. The sapling kept on growing while the dead wood on top of it slowly rotted away. Eventually the sapling became a tree that still held the shape it had for years growing up.

But the native lore is interesting too, much like I learned the silverleaf on the NZ flag was a fern that the Maori used when they moved at night. The underside of the fern showed silver in the moonlight so the Maori bent the fern over as they moved to mark their trail - most often when them moved in on enemy tribes and needed a marker for the escape route.

BTW I have never heard of the Cofaqui people, unless some spell it Cofefe ...


One problem with the story is that there isnt a Silver Fernleaf on the NZ Flag.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 7:34:13 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Interesting post.

My first thought when I saw your post was: snow. And the Wiki article notes that's one of the theories.

When these trees were saplings and whippet thin, there might've been ten inches of hard-packed snow on the ground. Then heavy snow or ice bent the saplings over from the point of the hard-packed snow. Since they were so thin, they yielded to the bending without breaking. After the snow or ice melted, they remained bent (saplings will do that when bent for a few hours or days) and the leaders resumed vertical growth, creating the oddly curved trees. (Or perhaps the Cherokee were responsible.)

The difference between these trees and the one in my photo is that these are the original "trunks." In my photo, the original tree was bent horizontally and, as BBfanboy noted, died and rotted away to the point on the trunk where a new leader had grown vertically from the side of the tree.

That was my first thought even before reading your post Dan. Ice storm..

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 7:46:08 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

That tree is too young to have been used as Sign. However there is some truth to that folklore. Many things were used in Sign, trees being one.

There were people there before the Cherokee. The Cherokee were a post-DeSoto mixture of a migrating Iroquoian speaking group with elements of local Coosa, Cofaqui and Cofachiqui(Kingdom of the Pearl Lady) along with some other small groups.

A Cherokee, or any person of that time/place would alter a small tree, or it's branches to convey a "Sign" message, and if left in that position long enough it would grow into that position. And the sender or receiver would note it's altered growth over the years and tell it's tale.

Many times a Sign would be undone so as to show it was read, unless it was safer to not let this be known.

Sign to mark trails or landmarks would be a lesser use, as the main use of Sign would be to Twitter a message to someone(s).

On a side note... DeSoto came across entire forests where the distance between the trees were symmetrical.

More likely the tree was little more than a springy sapling when a large tree or branch fell on it and bent it to the ground. The sapling kept on growing while the dead wood on top of it slowly rotted away. Eventually the sapling became a tree that still held the shape it had for years growing up.

But the native lore is interesting too, much like I learned the silverleaf on the NZ flag was a fern that the Maori used when they moved at night. The underside of the fern showed silver in the moonlight so the Maori bent the fern over as they moved to mark their trail - most often when them moved in on enemy tribes and needed a marker for the escape route.

BTW I have never heard of the Cofaqui people, unless some spell it Cofefe ...


One problem with the story is that there isnt a Silver Fernleaf on the NZ Flag.

I thought they just voted in a new flag with a silver fern on a black background?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 7:54:10 PM   
waihi

 

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Unfortunately NZ voted to keep the old flag, we will still keep being mistaken for Aussies

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 8:03:30 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Regarding bent trees, neither the Cherokee nor their predecessors bent trees to mark trails or anything else. There is a large movement contending they did, but that movement is wrong scientifically and historically.



"is wrong scientifically and historically." Since you are so familiar with that tell us about it. And their teepees
....


The most important thing is to understand that bent trees are formed naturally and occur abundantly in the woods. I can go into the process if anybody wants to know it in detail but I think most of you who have an interest understand that bent trees are perfectly natural.

Those who claim bent trees are of American Indian origin originally claimed that they couldn't have formed naturally. They claimed that the sharp angles were irrefutable signs of the handiwork of mankind - angles that cannot be made by natural forces (I can send you citations to these contentions). So, years ago, these Bent Tree afficionados came across the bent trees, concluded they had to have been shaped by mankind, and came up with the theory that American Indians did the bending. When foresters, biologists and others pointed out that nature forms bent trees all the time, the Bent Tree afficionados dismissed these people as "naysayers and college elites." Eventually, the afficionados finally admitted that the shapes are natural (how else to explain the 5 gazillion bent trees everywhere in the woods and lawns and parks that are 25 or 75 or 150 years old - much too young for the Cherokee to have bent them). But this didn't change their underlying theory. They continued to posit that American Indians did all the bending of the trees of sufficient age - say 200+ years in the southeastern USA.

Then they ran into a historical record that is amazingly silent on the topic. Hundreds or maybe thousands of soldiers, explorers, government emissaries, mapmakers, surveyors, frontiersmen, hunters, adventurers, scientists, geologists, missionaries, and others trapsed the southeastern part of what is now the USA and left detailed diaries, letters, reports, etc. None referred to the practice of American Indians bending trees. For example, William Bartram traveled the southeast extensively in the 1770s and made notes about every little thing. But he didn't mention "trail trees"; he didn't mention the Cherokee or Creek or Seminole doing this kind of thing. Neither did Hawkins or Featherstonehaugh or scores/hundreds of others.

But Bartram noted all kinds of other ways the Cherokee marked trails - they nailed animals skins to trees, used hatchets to create blazes on trees, and cut notches into trees. In the historical records you'll find all kinds of references to "Two Notch Road" and "Three Notch Road" and "Five Notch Road" and so on and so on. But you'll find nothing about bent trees.

And why would Native Americans used bent trees when they occurred so naturally and abundantly? There'd be nothing more potentially confusing and misleading than to use as a "sign" something that occurred all the time, all over the place: "Hey, is that bent tree a 'sign tree' or is it 'natural'?" "I dunno, what do you think?" "I dunno."

Far quicker and more reliable to use an ax to create notches or blazes, or to tack skins to trees. Nature doesn't replicate those things.

But the Bent Tree afficionados disregard the scientific and historic record and continue to abide in the house built on the foundation of their original error that "bent trees must've been created by mankind." Instead of assuming the easy explanation (hey, they occur naturally all the time, so the odds are this one is natural), they do the opposite (hey, they occur naturally all the time, but let's assume this one is manmade even though there's no scientific reason to believe so and nothing in the historic record to suggest so).

Early last century, a man in Chicago wrote a letter to the editor about this. He noted that a historic marker had been placed by a bent tree commemorating American Indians forming it as a "trail tree." But he had been present when the tree was bent during a storm some 50 or 75 years previously. He knew it had been formed by natural causes. He called the notion that it had been formed by American Indians "a pretty conceit." Today's Bent Tree afficionados refer to his letter as "a well-known assertion by a naysayer, familiar to us all." They completely dismiss his firsthand account and continue to propound a theory contrary to science and the historical record. It is, after all, a pretty conceit.




< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/24/2018 9:07:29 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 8:03:36 PM   
JeffroK


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Seeing so many have fled and crossed the ditch I thought you envied us.

Some of the flag options were excellent, problem in changes like that is that there must be 1 overpowering option, otherwise they dilute the vote.

Did you cop any of the Cyclone overflow, I'm headed there in 20 days (I can give the days/hours countdown)and regularly check my accomodation hasnt been shaken down or washed away.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 9:15:31 PM   
Canoerebel


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https://www.mountainstewards.org/project/internal_index.html

That links is to the Mountain Stewards website where the organization asserts that "sharp angles" characterize mankind's touch.







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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 9:22:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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Their hypothesis is wrong (that sharp angles aren't natural) but they "intuitively" built a theory on that hypothesis.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 9:25:48 PM   
Canoerebel


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Mountain Stewards didn't like what this eyewitness had to offer on the subject, so they just disregard him.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 9:27:52 PM   
Canoerebel


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George Holt's 1911 refutation about a "trail tree" in Chicago.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 9:29:14 PM   
JeffroK


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"Could their placement on the mountain crests...."

You know, where the strongest winds blow through passes etc.

You can argue any point if you ignore the facts.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/24/2018 11:43:02 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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5/9/45

Intel Screen: A modest gain in points today. The raid vs. Osaka was strong but the points scored weren't particularly impressive. Could be dice. But I also wonder: I'm pushing my 4EB hard to finish the game, and I wonder if damage to bombers affects pilot performance? I have no idea, but it's just something to think about. Tomorrow will continue will all-out raids vs. Osaka and Gifu.

Korea: Five IJN CAs bombarded Fusan today to modest effect. I'm not contesting these waters currently, as it seems like a real roll of the dice at this late date. Allied army is reinforced and will try a probing deliberate attack tomorrow. Just a bit to the north, 14 IJA Div. wiped out today, freeing up additional Allied units to push forward, north and south.

China: 2,000 Allied AV in Peiping. Three hexsides are open. About 4,000 AV will cross the river and assault from the SE in two days. The Allied units already in the city will deliberate attack at the same time.

Singers: John has alot of aircraft down here bombing, accomplishing essentially nothing, but perhaps giving him the satisfaction of the appearance of doing something.

KB: Out of sight at the moment. Part is in the DEI, most is in the Home Islands, available to Banzai if John gets a notion.




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