RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 5:09:09 PM

Chickenboy

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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
To me, sending 200 level bombers on a nighttime raid at 100 feet to smash an airfield is pretty much the same thing. It's way beyond what would have been possible for Japan in reality and is, I think, designed to take advantage of the game's workings. So I hope John won't do it - heck, I hope he won't even think of it.

What has been the extent of your usage of nighttime bombing in the game?

Many games with HRs to limit this activity, as it is likely not performing to expectations. If you've been using it sparingly and I were in John's shoes, I'd respond in kind. If you have been sending hundreds of 4EBs at night to circumvent daylight fighters and take advantage of borked night CAP routines / overly accurate targetting of fields on moonless nights then I'd share his frustration and wouldn't hesitate to respond in kind.

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Post #: 2821

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 5:45:16 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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I've never flown a nighttime bombing mission in any game that I've played, primarily because reading the forums gives the impression that it's vastly more effective than it should be.

In one game, perhaps vs. Chez, he did do some small nightime strikes. I told him I was fine with that, but thought he might like to know that if he didn't do them, I wouldn't, and if he did, I would. IIRC, he stopped doing them.

In this game, John has flow perhaps a half dozen or so nighttime raids - most vs. Sabang and a couple vs. Akyab. He's scored a couple of hits against non-essential shipping. At some point in the game, I might respond on a similar scale, but I reserve the right to eschew nightime bombing entirely.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 2822

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 6:51:29 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Possible explanations for the total blackout on communications from John:

1. A second vehicle hit a second substation in Lasalle, Colorado, resulting in an electrical failure even more prolonged than yesteday's.
2. John III was busy reading under a tree when he fell asleep, had a dream about a worm eating a succulent plant, refused to comply with a sterm command to go to Ninevah, and has ended up in the belly of a large marine animal.
3. The door on John's caboose got stuck and he's been sitting inside, yelling and pounding on the glass windows for 16 hours while his wife was enjoying an " tranquil and restful - unnaturally tranquil and restful - morning."

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2823

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 6:58:43 PM

poodlebrain

Posts: 392
Joined: 10/4/2012
From: Comfy Chair in Baton Rouge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never flown a nighttime bombing mission in any game that I've played, primarily because reading the forums gives the impression that it's vastly more effective than it should be.

In one game, perhaps vs. Chez, he did do some small nightime strikes. I told him I was fine with that, but thought he might like to know that if he didn't do them, I wouldn't, and if he did, I would. IIRC, he stopped doing them.

In this game, John has flow perhaps a half dozen or so nighttime raids - most vs. Sabang and a couple vs. Akyab. He's scored a couple of hits against non-essential shipping. At some point in the game, I might respond on a similar scale, but I reserve the right to eschew nightime bombing entirely.

I never seem to have any success with my night air missions, except for dropping mines. So, I tend to use night missions exclusively for mining and CAP.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2824

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 6:59:46 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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I'll take curtain #3 please.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2825

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 7:03:56 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Possible explanations for the total blackout on communications from John:

1. A second vehicle hit a second substation in Lasalle, Colorado, resulting in an electrical failure even more prolonged than yesteday's.
2. John III was busy reading under a tree when he fell asleep, had a dream about a worm eating a succulent plant, refused to comply with a sterm command to go to Ninevah, and has ended up in the belly of a large marine animal.
3. The door on John's caboose got stuck and he's been sitting inside, yelling and pounding on the glass windows for 16 hours while his wife was enjoying an " tranquil and restful - unnaturally tranquil and restful - morning."

Definitely #2

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2826

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 7:06:33 PM

Sakai007

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lol, holding my breath here in anticipation of the coming action. What an amazing read this has been so far!!!

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Post #: 2827

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 7:23:43 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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2822 vs. 2867. CR's closing fast.

(in reply to Sakai007)

Post #: 2828

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 7:51:23 PM

Nemo121

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quote:

To me, sending 200 level bombers on a nighttime raid at 100 feet to smash an airfield is pretty much the same thing. It's way beyond what would have been possible for Japan

THis is simply patently false. In real life in 1945 the IJAAF was planning night-time raids on airfields at the time of the collapse.. Sure these were to crashland and disperse paratroops/saboteurs on the fields but there's simply no technical reason they couldn't have done it if they wanted. Lost planes training to do it? Sure. But impossible? No.

Just cause you don't wish a thing to be so doesn't make it untrue or impossible. This wish fulfillment as fact thing is bizarre.

Personally I find your use of picket TFs to be rather gamey and certainly more gamey than ordering bombers to fly at one altitude instead of another in missions they did, historically, undertake. So, be careful wielding the "gamey brush" lest it tar you also.

_____________________________

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Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 2829

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 8:02:05 PM

JohnDillworth

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_air_attacks_on_the_Mariana_Islands

Japan was conducting night bombing since Guadalcanal. Since John has conducted night bombing I am not so sure massed night bombing is gamey. you have hundreds of fighters stacked at that base. If it can be disable long enough to bring some big guns in I think it is historically fair play. Maybe it's a question of altitude, but I would not discount to possibility of a heavy night raid. You really only have one good airfield to speak of. That makes it target Ichiban

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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Post #: 2830

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 8:33:02 PM

Canoerebel

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Use of picket ships isn't gamey. Even if it was it would be a small thing to avoid a much larger one.

As we all know, the game operates in 24-hour segments while real life takes place by seconds. In the war, you get notice that a large enemy carrier force is visible, you can make the decision to scrub your mission and turn your fleet around. But not in the game. Instead, your force sails blithely forward the entire 24 hours, right into the teeth of the enemy.

In the real war, the Allies nearly always knew the location of the Japanese CVs - or, at least where they weren't. It was rare for the Allies to commit major ships in the unknown. The use of pickets ships - which is historical, by the way - best models this situation. In the real war, where you lived by the second, picket ships might be thrown out a few miles or more. In the game, where we live by 24 hours, we have to multiply that distance accordingly. So we deploy DDs or xAKs in front by 10 or 15 hexes. By doing so, we minimize the 24 hour vs. 1 second problem.

Neither side really had the ability in 1942 and 1943 to used massed waves of nighttime bombers to shut down major enemy airfields. The Japense used an occasional Washing Machine Charlie to lob a couple of bombs at Henderson Field, but that was about it. More importantly, Japan didn't have the ability to do it even had they wanted to. Aircraft were available in much smaller numbers and were much more dispersed. IE, in real life, Japan wouldn't strip the entire DEI of patrol airacraft and bombers on the assumption or belief that the Allies were about to attack New Guinea. But in the game, with the near-magic ability to transfer 500 planes across the map in two or three days, we have another proposition entirely.

I'm not fond of night bombing because it's skewed and opens up things that I don't think could've happened. It's not a matter of wishful thinking, but rather a preference that the game more closely modeled actual capaibilties. By the same token, I wish we could more carefully model the use of picket ships, but we can't, so we have to do the best we can.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it!

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Post #: 2831

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:03:14 PM

Canoerebel

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Just received word from John that his "going dark" was due to more electrical outages followed by a computer crash followed by work. Embedded in his email was this nugget: "The computer was really funny this morning. I tried to run the turn and it refused to load and then it shutdown. Saw about 50% of the turn (LOTS of ACTION Baby!) before it crashed..."

Ugg. I wish he hadn't lobbed in the "Lots of Action" comment. That's the kind of pre-movie comment I'm trying to avoid. But it also raises my already-heightened curiosity to the "frenzied" level.

Okay, so his computer crashed midway through running a turn in which there was lots of action (Baby!). Can I read between the lines that perhaps the action wasn't particularly favorable to him? That's the kind of thing I've done in the past, but such fantasies never come true. Here's hoping Ginger and Mary Ann are about to knock on my door - after time traveling forward 45 years - wearing "come hither" outfits.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2832

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:05:37 PM

Paladin1dcs

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While I agree that picket ships are historical, they're not historical in the manner that you're using them CR, or rather the units that you're using aren't historically accurate.

To the best of my knowledge, the Allies only used Navy ships for picket duty, so in game they should either be combat ships or ships with a Navy crew as opposed to a civilian crew. Using civilian ships as a picket also tends to go against everything that the Allied forces claimed to stand for, such as the protection of their civilians.

Anyway, that's my .02 worth.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2833

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:09:19 PM

Canoerebel

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I disagree.

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Post #: 2834

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:16:49 PM

modrow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Use of picket ships isn't gamey. Even if it was it would be a small thing to avoid a much larger one.

As we all know, the game operates in 24-hour segments while real life takes place by seconds. In the war, you get notice that a large enemy carrier force is visible, you can make the decision to scrub your mission and turn your fleet around. But not in the game. Instead, your force sails blithely forward the entire 24 hours, right into the teeth of the enemy.

I don't think the potential issue is the intel provided, but the missions/ordnance spent on a target which would be ignored by a human commander without a way to prevent this in game. This is also the parallel to sacrifical xAK TFs making SCTFs spend their ammo/op points Chickenboy refers to in his post 2820.

Just my 2cts

Hartwig

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2835

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:24:21 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Obviously, this can open a huge can of worms as a topic, but here are a few things you might appreciate knowing.

1. I used to use mainly xAK and the like for picket duty, but over my past two games I've come to rely much more on DD, AM and PC. In this game, I can point you to a dozen DDs and another dozen AMs that have been sunk while on picket duty in NoPac, near Hawaii, around Oz, and west of Sumatra, etc.

2. At this point in the game, I've run short of those ships due to attrition. So I've begun mixing in xAK and xAKL. For instance, the current picket line stretching west from Sibolga to map's edge has included six or eight DD (at least two of which have been sunk) and an equal number of xAK (at least three of which have been sunk).

3. The situation here is especially tough because of the proximity of map's edge plus the 24-hour "no response" thing. If I had more room, I could rely more on stealth or military ships.

4. I can guarantee you that the Allies would not have steamed a massive invasion fleet close up to Java and Sumatra without adequate picketing.

5. In the real war, I am sure there are countless instances of the Allies sending civilian or quasi-civilian forces into harm's way to provide warnings or to gather information. And had it been necessary to use merchant shipping, I'm sure they would have done so.

6. John is also using picket ships. He most recently employed several south of New Guinea when he thought my invasion TFs were approaching. He's probably using some around Sumatra, though I can't say that for certain at the moment.

7. When my pickets find the enemy, they scatter. I do not abuse them to make the enemy waste ordinance.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/9/2013 9:54:56 PM >

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Post #: 2836

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:44:54 PM

BBfanboy

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Further to point #6, IIR the picket issue started when John employed some very low value AMcs and PBs as pickets because the Japanese start with so many of them. The Allies had no PBs and few AMcs for all the harbours they needed to keep clear, so they could not respond in kind. When John refused to desist, CR asserted his right to use such ships as he had available, but to make it less gamey, committed to use xAKs over xAKLs, where possible.

One could easily enough achieve the same mission as static pickets by giving xAKLs legit cargo missions through the area where intel is needed. Of course the captain would only be told of the cargo mission objective ...

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 2837

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:51:25 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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I've just received a discouraging PM from a reader of John's AAR. If I understand him correctly, he made a post in John's AAR yesterday encouraging John to do an uber night attack; then, four hours later, a flurry of night-fighting discussions ensued in my AAR.

Of course, this may be pure coincidence due to my comment in a post yesterday about IJ night fighters. If that's the case, it's just John's bad luck that clever, smart people read AARs! :)

But I hope that nobody reading John's AAR would then broach the topic in this AAR! I can't imagine such happening, but just a reminder that if you're reading his, don't post in mine.

I'm waiting to hear back if there's any reason to believe this wasn't purely coincidence. If there's even the slightest doubt, I'm not sure what to do. One possibility is to forget having night fighters. If, however, John is aware that I've been alerted (again, assuming it was more that coincidence) and thus becomes reluctant to do that which he would have done, I'll then encourage you guys to tell him that I've canceled any night fighting plans and he can take free shots.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2838

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 9:54:51 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never flown a nighttime bombing mission in any game that I've played, primarily because reading the forums gives the impression that it's vastly more effective than it should be.

In one game, perhaps vs. Chez, he did do some small nightime strikes. I told him I was fine with that, but thought he might like to know that if he didn't do them, I wouldn't, and if he did, I would. IIRC, he stopped doing them.

In this game, John has flow perhaps a half dozen or so nighttime raids - most vs. Sabang and a couple vs. Akyab. He's scored a couple of hits against non-essential shipping. At some point in the game, I might respond on a similar scale, but I reserve the right to eschew nightime bombing entirely.

Well, that sounds very fair and sensible.

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Post #: 2839

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 10:50:01 PM

JohnDillworth

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edited for content

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 7/9/2013 10:53:38 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 11:13:32 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never flown a nighttime bombing mission in any game that I've played, primarily because reading the forums gives the impression that it's vastly more effective than it should be.

In one game, perhaps vs. Chez, he did do some small nightime strikes. I told him I was fine with that, but thought he might like to know that if he didn't do them, I wouldn't, and if he did, I would. IIRC, he stopped doing them.

In this game, John has flow perhaps a half dozen or so nighttime raids - most vs. Sabang and a couple vs. Akyab. He's scored a couple of hits against non-essential shipping. At some point in the game, I might respond on a similar scale, but I reserve the right to eschew nightime bombing entirely.

Ark and I limited it to one unit per theater per turn with only one or two elite Betty or Cat squadrons on night torpedo missions. It is a gentleman's agreement and it has worked very well.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2841

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 11:38:25 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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Crud! Don't people realize that even inadvertent op sec breaches could lead to the antagonists suspending their AARs?

The rule should be ironclad - if you read both AARs, you post in neither nor PM either participant.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2842

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 11:40:35 PM

Nemo121

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CR,

Well, clearly John is as free to rationalise what he does/might do ( night bombing by hundreds of bombers ) as you are to rationalise your use of civilian ships as pickets. Personally I don't find using military units at lower levels than normal gamey but I do find picket ships gamey. Your mileage obviously differs, and that's fine.

As to the Private Message you received. Well I don't know who posts here who also posts in John3rd's AAR but it is clear that OPSEC of John's AAR has been breached - by this person who PMed you. If what they say is true they've just told you that John is being encouraged to do large-scale night-bombing attacks. This MUST change your appreciation of the risk of there being large-scale night-bombing and therefore constitutes a clear breach of OPSEC.

This is the problem with self-appointed people privately messaging others.... If you've got something to say about an AAR you should be able to say it publicly. If you can only say it via PM then that's highly suspicious IMO, as I've said many times before. I'm sure this person's intentions were good but they've clearly breached OPSEC by telling you what has been discussed in John3rd's AAR. This is why people reading both AARs need to be super-careful not to give anything away even in passing.

E.g. Just a few days ago I had a significant OPSEC breach in my AAR vs Damian. A poster posted to a general thread in the main forum discussing my use of an OMG ( Operational Manoeuvre Group ) in Burma. Well the problem is that I've NEVER mentioned to Damian that I've created an Operational Manoeuvre Group and I certainly never told him I had one in Burma. Since OMGs are always tank-heavy this is tantamount to telling Damian I've massed a tank-heavy force to exploit into his strategic depth in Burma --- which is precisely what I have done. If Damian has read that post then Damian will put 2 and 2 together and a large component of my planning and operational secrecy in Burma has just gone out the window. Was it an intentional breach of OPSEC? No, but it was a clear breach of OPSEC.

Since I started the talking about night bombing I should clarify how it came up:
1. I'm a big fan of low-level night-bombing as a great equaliser in the late-war period and ANYONE who has played me from '43 onwards will be able to tell you that once I begin being unable to break Allied CAP during the daytime I switch to low-level night-time raids on airfields as my standard operating procedure.

2. I've AARed this from several years ago, particularly in my Armageddon AAR.

3. I don't read John's AAR.

4. I've talked about positive and negative space before. This AAR has gotten really focused on the positive space recently with everyone focusing on what CR's doing and what John is doing or might do. No-one has been asking the question: "What am I seeing and what is what I'm seeing preventing me from seeing?" IOW no-one's looking at the negative space and seeing what might be lying in wait there. IMO the counter to an airfield with impenetrable daytime CAP and SC TFs protecting from bombardment is, rather obviously, a low-level night-time raid since that's what I always do in that situation. In fact I've frequently used the one-two of night-time IJAAF raid vs the airfield followed by daytime IJNAF torpedo and dive-bomber strikes vs the SC TFs guarding the base.

It was also sparked by the talk about "unbreakable" CAP etc... My thinking is that whenever you create a situation like that you make your opponent figure out a way to "go around" it rather than take it head-on. Whats the simplest way to avoid 250 fighters on day-time CAP? Bomb it at night. Simple!!!

5. I wasn't going to mention anything about this since it didn't seem any night-time raids were ever mentioned in the AAR ( since I started reading at least )but when CR mentioned night-time raids occuring I felt that this was a clear indication that John was alive to the possibility of night-time raids and a nudge in the right direction was required since CR had never mentioned anything about defending them or how devastating they could be.... And note, night-time bomber raids were mentioned as being "pinpricks" when I'm aware that they are, potentially, the most effective anti-airfield raid possible vs the Allies from 1944 onwards AND can close Level 8 or 9 airfields ( as I've done in PBEMs myself ). So they clearly aren't pinpricks and CR was clearly not treating them with the respect they deserved.

So, that's how I arrived at my comments --- personal experience of using night-time raids in AARs going back several years and highlighting them as the best way of breaking through precisely the situation you've given John3rd now. He has read those AARs so I know he is alive to the possibility.

Bottom line though:
1. It is up to those who read Johns AAR to decide if they've breached OPSEC or not and account for it publicly ( and not via some secret PM )

2. Whoever PMed you privately HAS broken OPSEC - albeit unintentionally - and you need to let JOhn3rd know this.

3. Maybe someone who reads both AARs and is independent and trusted by both sides could look into the timeline of when this person posted their post and when things started being posted here and which posts were made by people who read both AARs? I'm sure that any breaching of OPSEC was unintentional and due to people just knowing a little too much and thus advocating one position over another a bit too much but highlighting it ( not in a punitive way but in a helpful way ) might just help people be more careful in future.

4. Maybe make it a rule that people who read both aren't allowed to post in either? I know that since yesterday I've been PMed by someone discussing the HRs used and the viewing of night-time bombing as gamey but picket ships as not gamey but this person was clear that they didn't want to discuss it publicly because they were reading both AARs and didn't want to risk an OPSEC breach because of that, hence just having the discussion privately. Maybe that self-discipline needs to be enforced in both AARs by the AAR founders?

Most important thing though is that you have to let John know about the unintentional OPSEC breach by whoever PMed you. That's the only OPSEC breach we can be sure HAS happened.

As an aside: In one of my games where OPSEC was breached it was because of a self-appointed moral guardian who was accusing others of breaching OPSEC... Almost precisely the same situation as here ( well, except for the fact that in my case the breach wasn't unintentional but was intentional ). Perhaps in addition to people reading both being banned from commenting on either anyone accusing others of OPSEC breaches should be asked to do so publicly in a separate thread? An OPSEC thread if you will? That way the issue can be raised publicly where both AAR writers can read it and judge for themselves AND we might be able to avoid the situation where the person who thinks OPSEC has been breached ( and in my case the whistleblower got it wrong but then breached OPSEC hugely themselves ) actually becomes the breach themselves ( as has happened, again, here - albeit unintentionally I'm sure ).

What do people think? Would some sort of OPSEC thread where people are asked to report OPSEC breaches be worthwhile? It might avoid this sort of PMing warning of breaches which becomes a breach itself...

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 7/9/2013 11:46:32 PM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 2843

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/9/2013 11:54:12 PM

GreyJoy

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Sorry to hear that Dan.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 2844

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 12:06:07 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
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From: Lone Star Nation
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Bummer. I do think the read 'em both, comment in neither approach is the safest policy for all concerned.

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Post #: 2845

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 12:17:44 AM

paullus99

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That stinks, if true & somebody did that.....

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Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 2846

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 12:50:20 AM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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quote:

I've just received a discouraging PM from a reader of John's AAR. If I understand him correctly, he made a post in John's AAR yesterday encouraging John to do an uber night attack; then, four hours later, a flurry of night-fighting discussions ensued in my AAR.

I'm reading both sides and I didn't see anything that mentioned night attacks in John's AAR as described by CR. If I missed something, my bad, but to my eyes, it just ain't there.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2847

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 1:54:07 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

There is one post that seems to skirt past the usual girl talk about knitting needles, waterproof eye shadow and ginger snap recipes into over-informed advocacy but, really, it seems pretty harmless.

The discussion here seems to have originated by sponateous generation, just like mice springing to life out of dirty laundry.

The alleged leak here is something considerably south of Klaus Fuchs. There is nothing of real value to either side considering what might have been disclosed. 99% harmless.

Of course, the PM business discloses info just by sending it and even St. Francis would be tempted to prove how smart he was by cross-pollinating...so....<takes out ritual self-embowelment knife>...oh, come on! Try it, it's fun!

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 2848

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 1:55:31 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Nemo makes a good point. I wrote back to the person who initially sent me the PM and asked him to fill John in on what's occurred. IE, what raised questions in the PMers mind and what he told me. (To clarify: the PMer came to me out of genuine concern about whether there had been an OPSec breach in my AAR; he was trying to keep things honest, but may have unintentionally created an OpSec breach in telling me about his comments in John's AAR.)

To fix this, I think what I'm going to do is "pretend like" I wasn't alerted to the night bombing problem by Nemo, who's experience and cleverness I would LOVE to benefit from, but won't at this time. Just to aviod the appearance of impropriety (a phrase which lawyers and judges like to kick around), I'm not going to use any night fighters, continuing in the blissful ignorance that I was in yesterday before Nemo gave me a rousing shake. Only if the situation comes up independently and obviously at some point - say a big raid that doesn't go right for John, but "wakes me up" and makes me consider the issue fully - will I employ more reasonable defenses against a night assault. IE, I won't do anything until there comes a clear point where I would obviously become aware of the threat and ask the questions that would lead me to where I am today.

To be clear: I want to thank Nemo for excellent teaching and advice. I want to thank the PMer, who had genuine concerns that something was amiss in my AAR. And I want to extend my thanks to all you gents who read my AAR and observe OpSec so assiduously. This had the potential for getting messy, but I think we've largely defused the matter.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 2849

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/10/2013 1:57:29 AM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

he made a post in John's AAR yesterday encouraging John to do an uber night attack;

Pws etc.... Well this should be easy to sort out. Whoever PMed CR said he made a post urging night attacks. Is there such a post? If there isn't then this could be a malicious OPSEC breach.

So, was there a post urging night attacks there? Someone has clearly told CR there was. This is getting weirder and weirder and potentially less inadvertent and more something else

I know I'm suspicious about this but ANYONE posting PMs instead of publicly about OPSEC always gets me suspicious cause of my troubles with FatR.

Just read CRs post...
*sigh* I think you're being too magnanimous here. Whatever happened this PM HAS broken OPSEC. Maybe it was inadvertent but what the hell lets these moral guardians keep doing this sort of thing and getting away Scott free? It is REALLY frustrating. This is why I only AAR when playing people I trust to ignore these sorts of PMs and have made not admitting to PBEMing me a condition of playing some people ( because I wouldn't trust others not to PM them leaking my plans - based on my past experiences). Jesus but this stuff actually makes me angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 7/10/2013 2:03:56 AM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 2850

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