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German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 11:01:45 AM

STEF78

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From: Versailles, France
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Good news, I survived my first blizzard against a human!

But as I'm stubborn, I didn't follow all the advices given by the most experienced players.

At least it allowed me to avoid the major mistakes, and I'm able to confirm:
- in december German CV are garbage (the dropping of available squad is truly impressive!)
- in January things are going better and the line can clearly be hold in February. I did some successfull counterattacks.
- splitting Mtn div is a good idea
- the finns can hold the line (Leningrad taken)
- garrisoning Pzd/Mot in cities is the key

- I did a fort line some hexes behind the front, not sure that this waste of AP helped me (except psychologically)

But I lost 800k men, 1100 AFV, 6000 guns and of course morale. I've lost 0 to five hexes in the north (Leningrad to Moscow), five to ten from Moscow to the sea. I should have perhaps given more hexes to the Sov... but I don't like retreating

No unit was lost except a Rum Inf shatttered (Where is it?)

Now the Front Line is Ladoga, Ilmen, Torzok, Briansk, Bielgorod, Karkov, Mariupol. I have the equivalent of 2 PzG+.

Should I attack in early March or wait past the mud? Is it possible/interesting to take Moscow 1942, or better to concentrate in the south? What would be the better chain of commanders?

Post #: 1

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 2:33:39 PM

Klydon

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Out of your losses listed, the loss in moral is probably the biggest followed by the 800k men. The tank losses don't mean much because they were likely garbage tanks and very few (relatiavely speaking) were of the better P-III/P-IV models. 6000 guns could be anything from 37mm AT guns to big guns, but that part won't matter too much.

From what I have observed/noticed, the Germans need to look to start attacking as quickly as possible to rebuild moral for their forces. All these can be just local attacks with no other purpose than to knock down Russian moral and rebuild your own. After the weather clears up, you can look to launch a larger offensive and if you have done your job with your early attacks, your moral will be better among your infantry, which will help any 1942 offensive you plan on launching.

The other thing you need to look at is what shape are your pools in and make ToE adjustments as you see fit to help.

(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 2

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 2:34:06 PM

Disgruntled Veteran

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Being that I am about 15-20 turns ahead of you I'll share what I can.

-The Rumanian unit is gone. Axis allies are dead once they are dead. No respawn like German units.

-Do you have random weather? If not than planning is much easier. If you have random weather you should realize there will be attack potential almost every turn.

-During the months of Mar-May I focused on morale building attacks. If I could attack a lone tank brigade with a deliberate attack from 12 infantry divisions I would. I did this to rebuild morale in my rank and file. You can get around 1-3 morale points per victory in 42. Build as much morale before the main campaign season in 42.

-Attacking Moscow in 42 is hard. Once your enemy sees you've committed they will likely shift dozens of divisions and form numerous belts of lvl 3 forts. This starts creating mass attrition and holds which plays into Russian hands. You have to ask if 200-300k losses to sack Moscow is worth it. I'm currently debating this right now in my AAR. Even after an encirclement near Viazma where I trapped about 70 divisions its still a slow grind.

- Use recon extensively and try to deceive your opponent. Personally I follow the maxim of hitting your enemy where he is weakest. Finally, if you bust a huge gap in his lines, don't let off the pressure until your exhausted.

Hope it helps.

(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 3

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 3:39:13 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
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From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Out of your losses listed, the loss in moral is probably the biggest followed by the 800k men. The tank losses don't mean much because they were likely garbage tanks and very few (relatiavely speaking) were of the better P-III/P-IV models. 6000 guns could be anything from 37mm AT guns to big guns, but that part won't matter too much.

Good news for the tanks, I was somehow concerned about this point

quote:

From what I have observed/noticed, the Germans need to look to start attacking as quickly as possible to rebuild moral for their forces. All these can be just local attacks with no other purpose than to knock down Russian moral and rebuild your own. After the weather clears up, you can look to launch a larger offensive and if you have done your job with your early attacks, your moral will be better among your infantry, which will help any 1942 offensive you plan on launching.

Ok, I will rebuild morale beginning from early march

quote:

The other thing you need to look at is what shape are your pools in and make ToE adjustments as you see fit to help.

My pools look in good shape. I avoided refiting front line units during winter.What would be a right ToE for an Inf Div only defending during 1942? Do you use static mode?

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 4

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 3:49:03 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Being that I am about 15-20 turns ahead of you I'll share what I can.

-The Rumanian unit is gone. Axis allies are dead once they are dead. No respawn like German units.

RIP

quote:

-Do you have random weather? If not than planning is much easier. If you have random weather you should realize there will be attack potential almost every turn.

I have non random weather

quote:

-During the months of Mar-May I focused on morale building attacks. If I could attack a lone tank brigade with a deliberate attack from 12 infantry divisions I would. I did this to rebuild morale in my rank and file. You can get around 1-3 morale points per victory in 42. Build as much morale before the main campaign season in 42.

Well noticed, I will attack as soon as possible.. and that's what I prefer ;-))

quote:

-Attacking Moscow in 42 is hard. Once your enemy sees you've committed they will likely shift dozens of divisions and form numerous belts of lvl 3 forts. This starts creating mass attrition and holds which plays into Russian hands. You have to ask if 200-300k losses to sack Moscow is worth it. I'm currently debating this right now in my AAR. Even after an encirclement near Viazma where I trapped about 70 divisions its still a slow grind.

Sure Moscow is a hard nut but the Sov will fight for it. I"m tempted by a large encirclement...

quote:

- Use recon extensively and try to deceive your opponent. Personally I follow the maxim of hitting your enemy where he is weakest. Finally, if you bust a huge gap in his lines, don't let off the pressure until your exhausted.

Hope it helps.

Sapper222 explained it well. Hitting where the sov is weak can be the key.

Thanks for the advices.

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Post #: 5

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 4:42:49 PM

Disgruntled Veteran

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The potential problem with Moscow is that you cannot create a severe enough breakthrough each turn to be decisive. In order to send tanks blasting through the flanks you really need a 3 hex wide path through the grind. If your opponent has 2 waves of 3 divisions at lvl 3 forts you will almost certainly not be able to do it in a single turn. The 3 unit per hex limit really restricts you and it can several corps to dislodge a single hex.

So lets say you knock out a few hexes each turn and advance slowly. Your opponent should be constantly building rear lines and can simply back up one hex a turn thus negating your gains.

Of course there is a lot of factors such as: Front Width, element of surprise, enemy strength etc. I'm not saying don't go for it but make sure you really think it through and plan everything accordingly. Your infantry aren't as good as 41 infantry so every hex could get 1-3 holds and by late summer you've bled out your infantry and built up soviet infantry for no gain. Even if you take Moscow, you might have helped the Soviets by playing according toward their strengths.

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Post #: 6

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/8/2012 5:06:50 PM

HITMAN202

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I'm only entering my 1st '42 (against NOSB and deepest run in a campaign game for both) and after a blizzard that I ran like hell and suffered moderate losses (mainly attrition and a whole four division German infantry Corp) I spent a lot of time looking at AAR's and obseved a few things.

First slogging it out with level 3 forts is a no no. Almost certainly infront of Moscow and the deep south AGS along the Black Sea the Soviets have enough time to build a 4 or even 5 row barrier of such strength.

Central Russia is the soft belly that the Axis should focus on.

Most Germans run like a scared rabbit in a line Bryansk to Poltava and naturally the Soviets follow suit. By February the Soviets start a D-line that seldom has any level 3 forts or depth. At that time the German need to put constant pressure on the front there to limit and impede fort formation and it's depth.

Starting February you chew on the front line, more in March, and even harder in April and May. Two stacked German hexes can retreat strong level 1 and weak level 2 forts even during mud.

Come June with that scenario, the Germans will blow the center open. And at that time even with a huge network of forts north and south the Soviets face a potential disaster.

An amazing example of the power of the Germans even in snow, look at the game Glvaca and Tarhunas. I think Tarhunas resigned then.

Against a wiser Soviet, central Russia will be a harder nut to crack, but I think that's where a potential huge pocket can me made.

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Post #: 7

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 11:38:54 AM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
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From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

The potential problem with Moscow is that you cannot create a severe enough breakthrough each turn to be decisive. In order to send tanks blasting through the flanks you really need a 3 hex wide path through the grind. If your opponent has 2 waves of 3 divisions at lvl 3 forts you will almost certainly not be able to do it in a single turn. The 3 unit per hex limit really restricts you and it can several corps to dislodge a single hex.

So lets say you knock out a few hexes each turn and advance slowly. Your opponent should be constantly building rear lines and can simply back up one hex a turn thus negating your gains.

There will be surely an in-depth defence in front of moscow. I suggest a low intensity frontal attack to fix the defence an a large encirclement. In the south, it will work, the question is about the north.

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Post #: 8

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 11:48:11 AM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Central Russia is the soft belly that the Axis should focus on.

You're right in theory but I think the key of success is surprise. As you are a good chess player, you know it. You need either to be more and more skilled in your speciality or do something totally different to get surprise.

It's like Pelton right hook. It was a superb idea the first time but as it is now seen as possible the sov prepare his defences both west and east Ilmen.

In my opinion I will have to focuse on:
1) surprise (why not east leningrad? or Crimea?)
2) momentum

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Post #: 9

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 2:17:44 PM

Peltonx

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I generally go for Tula to Kursk ( for all the reasons Hitman gave) area first and my stop line being Oka, russians can only defend about 2/3 of the front in depth and strength. Its easy to defend so I can line it with Regiments and it will hold. so I will have extra units for the run south. Then head south as its easy to roll up the rivers stopping at Don. This should be enough manpower centers, 100-200 pocketed russiaans to hang on for the win/draw depending on your skill defending and other guys skill building Red 2.0.

Push east as far as you can to make a 42/43 winter buffer between Don/Oka. You should have a fort belt atleast 3 deep from Tula/Oka north and 2 deep near Rostov.

Set-up in reserve mode during fall mud, I will be posting sometimes soon on a good defence using reserve mode soon unless SJ does this week.

While your attacking start converting your 87's to 190's, this upgrades will give u another 300-400 fighters of which u will need to keep the red air firse under control during 43.

Of course if the SHC is stupid enough to not have very strong defences around Moscow take it asap then head south, same set-up in the fall.

Stay out of Crimea and dont go more then 100 mile south of Rostov, several of us have tried the deep south and there is no positive return. You will lose allot of trucks and afvs to movement atrition.

Bomazz summer 41 sets him up for taking Moscow because hes close enough to do the 3 to 5 hex grind and not a 10-12 hex grind.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/9/2012 2:30:06 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 4:31:35 PM

HITMAN202

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What's this 87's to 190's ??? It's frustrating to still see that know squat !!!! How do you replace them ???

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RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 4:50:13 PM

mevstedt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

What's this 87's to 190's ??? It's frustrating to still see that know squat !!!! How do you replace them ???

Ju 87s = stukas.

Exchange for FW-190s.

There, deciphered it for you =).

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Post #: 12

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 5:08:00 PM

HITMAN202

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I figured that one out, but how do you upgrade them ???

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Post #: 13

RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 6:59:15 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I figured that one out, but how do you upgrade them ???

Soory.

go to an airbase with 87's

Under attached units:

click a gruop.

It opens another page, on the lower right click air craft change.

Only up grade to the FW-190's. These units lose 1/2 exp when fling as fighters and not fighter bombers. The FW's do just fine in air to air with most russian units. 109's not as good.

I will mix these gruops in with the 109 fighter gruops.

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RE: German spring 1942 - 12/9/2012 7:29:53 PM

morvael

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Or from production screen filter air groups with 87s and upgrade them based on exp or mrl criteria. I prefer to do it this way, than to examine individual airbases.

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Post #: 15