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Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 4:35:57 PM   
dennishe


Posts: 1081
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dear All,

In my game with Cannonfodder I finally managed to conquer fortress Palembang, but after capture it turned out that the sneaky Dutch have destroyed 540 of the oilfields and more than 600 of the refineries. This puts a huge pressure on the Japanese war economy.

Below is a picture from WITP tracker. All oil fields in the DEI have been taken. With these figures, is there any change of a healthy Japanese war economy, or is Japan totally doomed even before the Allies start their offensive???






Attachment (1)

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 4:46:19 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		It is gonna be uphill for Japan.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:00:52 PM   
koontz

 

Posts: 274
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Status: offline 		Every jap player shall take Palembang during the first week.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:06:54 PM   
dennishe


Posts: 1081
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: koontz

Every jap player shall take Palembang during the first week.


So the Allies can bomb it in the 2nd week???

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:17:26 PM   
koontz

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 8/27/2009
Status: offline 		heard of CAP ?

What can the allies bomb in -41 that the empire cannot defend?

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:27:58 PM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		If Balikpapan, Medan, Tarakan, Magwe, Miri oil fields are ok, you can handle with situation. But still, fortress Balikpapan is very very gamey tactic.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:30:51 PM   
koontz

 

Posts: 274
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Status: offline 		when did u take it?

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 5:33:50 PM   
koontz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

If Balikpapan, Medan, Tarakan, Magwe, Miri oil fields are ok, you can handle with situation. But still, fortress Balikpapan is very very gamey tactic.

U should take all thosse bases during -41

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 6:08:01 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Such things happen... You're not doomed, some of the oilfields will repair (this is faster than one thinks) but you need to be prudent with the fuel.

As you seem to be playing Scenario 1, your HI pilot cost won't be too high. You can further reduce HI by

1- cutting the merchant building program, you need almost none of those cargoes and tankers (since you have no fuel anymore), and various utility ships, and that's a lot of HI
2- reducing the naval building, stop the late war stuff, free VP, and you won't have the fuel to move them anyway, and accelerate less (none if you can)
3- cutting the armaments a bit

This should allow you to save a lot of HI (about 7000 a day vs 3500 now). Which means you will have quite a bit in the bank once the oil stocks become zero (about two years at the current rate, including repairs).

Also, you need to consider using your navy less. Long raids with KB, or the BB (these are the worst) use a lot of fuel. Have less of them, and everything should be fine.
This makes for an interesting game.

Francois




< Message edited by fcharton -- 12/31/2012 6:09:51 PM >

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 12/31/2012 6:19:34 PM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		Actualy even if 200 oil left in Palenbang he has 300 in near base (i hope it not destroyed too), so you will shoip more crude oil not the fuel to home islands, i dont think it is a problem. You can repair Miri oil fields and develope Miri and Brunei ports and ship oil to Siagon using small 1250 tanlers and from there to home islands using large 15-18000 tankers

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 8:51:52 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		You can start shutting down armaments and then HI soon. You are overbuilding there. What is critical for the Japanese player is having enough supply and enough fuel to execute operations.

Just 2 cents from your opponent..

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 8:56:26 AM   
KenchiSulla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

If Balikpapan, Medan, Tarakan, Magwe, Miri oil fields are ok, you can handle with situation. But still, fortress Balikpapan is very very gamey tactic.


What do you know about the houserules and understanding between the two players? What Dennis told me at game start was that he doesn't like players that ran all the way in the first few months of the war.

I didn't run, I fought with all my assets.. Read both AARs if you want to know what "went down" so to speak..

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 9:28:09 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Have we got JFB complaining about another AFB tactic? I bet he is playing scen2, JFB wet dream scenario.

Do they want free access to every port on the map??

As to the damage when/iff they finally capture the oilfields, a troop of Boy Scouts with a hammer and a box of matches could severley damage an oil refinery, let alone trained engineers with access to explosives.



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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 10:10:25 AM   
dennishe


Posts: 1081
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Have we got JFB complaining about another AFB tactic? I bet he is playing scen2, JFB wet dream scenario.

Do they want free access to every port on the map??

As to the damage when/iff they finally capture the oilfields, a troop of Boy Scouts with a hammer and a box of matches could severley damage an oil refinery, let alone trained engineers with access to explosives.




I'm not complaining about cannonfodders strategy. Actually I congratulated him earlier.
I'm trying to find out/predict what is going to happen with the Japanese economy so I can continue to fight back. I still need a lot of tanks, planes and ships to get my revenge!

Also it is not scenario 2, but DDB-C scenario 1.

But I do sense some frustration. Do you want to talk about it?

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 10:19:39 AM   
dennishe


Posts: 1081
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From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

If Balikpapan, Medan, Tarakan, Magwe, Miri oil fields are ok, you can handle with situation. But still, fortress Balikpapan is very very gamey tactic.


What do you know about the houserules and understanding between the two players? What Dennis told me at game start was that he doesn't like players that ran all the way in the first few months of the war.

I didn't run, I fought with all my assets.. Read both AARs if you want to know what "went down" so to speak..


I hate brave sir Robin sooooo much!!!!!!!!

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 10:44:09 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		Dennishe, fcharton said it already, it is not near as bad as it may feel. Get enough supply there, and will repair in time. More like 1.5 years, though, as fields and refineries repair only one point a day. That will give you at least another 8-10 months on stocks plus 2-3 months from what to can produce until then to continue operations and expansions at a higher pace, but setting up a "fuel savings program" might be prudent.

You could cut down on resource convoy network from the DEI and only use the largest freighter, leaving the host of smaller xAK (say <4000) and xAKL in port. That saves quite some fuel in contrast to having continuously running smaller xAKL shuttles between the smaller DEI/SRA centers to Singapore or Soerabaja, Makassar etc. plus convoys getting stuff back to the home islands -- enough fuel to augment your military ops stores. You won't need all of those resource anyway in scen 1 since there is a lot coming from Sakhalin and China. On the other hand 1942 is the year when it may be useful to go crazy with carrying stuff from the DEI centers to Japan (assuming you got enough Dutch subs nailed earlier and you play with duds) since it all goes right into the bank for later, more dangerous years.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 10:55:31 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koontz
heard of CAP ?

What can the allies bomb in -41 that the empire cannot defend?


In scenario 1 it is going to be a while into 42 until IJ has something to really fight off 4EB?! Best you can wear them down over time, but that could be months when it starts by January already. You can reduce their success rate by throwing in your early Oscars, some Nates or your better pilots in A6M2 Zeros even if the latter rarely cause more than ops losses or just damage delays, but against B-17 these fighters may be a welcome target. But these fighters are really required elsewhere to engage the British, perhaps still the Dutch or already the OZ air forces.

Since IJA also has little in term of efficient AAA at this time, I would guess 2 and 4EB usage against Palembang as long as you have usable airfields in range (Java, building up Medan, Padang, Silberoet or Christmas IO early?) might be a tough sting in the Japanese side. Don't some people have a house rule against that for similar reasons?

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 11:22:14 AM   
dennishe


Posts: 1081
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: koontz
heard of CAP ?

What can the allies bomb in -41 that the empire cannot defend?


In scenario 1 it is going to be a while into 42 until IJ has something to really fight off 4EB?! Best you can wear them down over time, but that could be months when it starts by January already. You can reduce their success rate by throwing in your early Oscars, some Nates or your better pilots in A6M2 Zeros even if the latter rarely cause more than ops losses or just damage delays, but against B-17 these fighters may be a welcome target. But these fighters are really required elsewhere to engage the British, perhaps still the Dutch or already the OZ air forces.

Since IJA also has little in term of efficient AAA at this time, I would guess 2 and 4EB usage against Palembang as long as you have usable airfields in range (Java, building up Medan, Padang, Silberoet or Christmas IO early?) might be a tough sting in the Japanese side. Don't some people have a house rule against that for similar reasons?


Exactly. My first target was to take the lvl 4 airbases to prevent the Allies access to them and to have my Betty and Nell bombers bases to strike the US Navy, Dutch and especially Force Z. The oil fields would be secured only after the Allied bomber threat was taken out, while scouts were supposed to carefully examine a possible build-up of troops at these oil bases. Unfortunately the scouts did not a very good job at Palembang until it was too late...

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 11:59:52 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
As to the damage when/iff they finally capture the oilfields, a troop of Boy Scouts with a hammer and a box of matches could severley damage an oil refinery, let alone trained engineers with access to explosives.


And yet, the engine allows us to capture those bases undamaged most of the time. Game is borked, I tell you. And the OOB doesn't even includes boy scout units (with Lt Akela, their commanding officer).

Seriously, the game gives Palembang a disproportionate importance, because oil/fuel is modelled separately in the game, and because the sources of production are all concentrated over a small number of hexes.

This has consequences for both players : it creates Palembang fortresses options for the Allies, and means Japan should rush to take Palembang (the most important hex on the map), and plan his fuel usage throughout the war in advance. As such, taking Palembang badly damaged is viewed by many JFB as a shattering event. Somehow, it seems worse than the loss of the KB (but this is historical, eh?).

quote:

ORIGINAL: dennishe
I'm trying to find out/predict what is going to happen with the Japanese economy so I can continue to fight back. I still need a lot of tanks, planes and ships to get my revenge!
Also it is not scenario 2, but DDB-C scenario 1.


Tanks and planes are fine, they aren't very costly (a fighter is a mere 36 HI), and don't use fuel. Ships are the main issue, because building them costs a lot (even more if you accelerate them) and sailing them uses fuel. So, it all boild down to questions like :

- which ships do you really need? (build what? in scenario 1, you don't need most of the merchies, in DBB-C, it might be different)
- when do you need them? (ie accelerate or not)
- when you have them, will you have fuel for them? (because if you don't...)

Another point you might want to check is your current fuel usage. It is very easy to use a lot by having task forces sitting undisbanded in port, or running small errands with your big fuel users, KB and the BB.

My 2 fuel points...

Francois

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 4:52:22 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

In scenario 1 it is going to be a while into 42 until IJ has something to really fight off 4EB?! Best you can wear them down over time, but that could be months when it starts by January already. You can reduce their success rate by throwing in your early Oscars, some Nates or your better pilots in A6M2 Zeros even if the latter rarely cause more than ops losses or just damage delays, but against B-17 these fighters may be a welcome target. But these fighters are really required elsewhere to engage the British, perhaps still the Dutch or already the OZ air forces.

Since IJA also has little in term of efficient AAA at this time, I would guess 2 and 4EB usage against Palembang as long as you have usable airfields in range (Java, building up Medan, Padang, Silberoet or Christmas IO early?) might be a tough sting in the Japanese side. Don't some people have a house rule against that for similar reasons?


While the IJA fighters have a tough time with 4Es, JFBs need to recognize how few the Allies get in 1942. B-17E rates of 15 per month in early 1942. They are hard to shoot down, but they accumulate airframe fatigue as fast as anything else, and they take a lot of maintenance. They are useful, but they aren't wonder weapons in 1942. In 1945 it's a different story.


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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 5:54:06 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The moose is right. A Japanese player who is having trouble with Allied heavies in 1942 is not playing a very good game. You should find them and just go after them. Later on they become a problem but should never be much of an issue in 42.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/1/2013 7:04:05 PM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		Miri (1500 oil)Bruinei (200 oil) Shikuka (300), Magwe (3000) Djambi (2500), Bengaklis (400) , Medan (2000 oil or 2000 fuel), Tjepoe (350 oil or 300 fuel), Soerabaya (1900 oil or 1700 fuel), Balikpapan and Samarinda (4000 oil or 3000 fuel), Tarakan (900 oil or fuel). This centers give you more than 16 000 oil points per day. This enough to run you industry almost at full capacity. Only thing you need is to establish effective convoy system and place units with naval support to speed up cargo loading.

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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/2/2013 6:55:14 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dennishe


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Have we got JFB complaining about another AFB tactic? I bet he is playing scen2, JFB wet dream scenario.

Do they want free access to every port on the map??

As to the damage when/iff they finally capture the oilfields, a troop of Boy Scouts with a hammer and a box of matches could severley damage an oil refinery, let alone trained engineers with access to explosives.




I'm not complaining about cannonfodders strategy. Actually I congratulated him earlier.
I'm trying to find out/predict what is going to happen with the Japanese economy so I can continue to fight back. I still need a lot of tanks, planes and ships to get my revenge!

Also it is not scenario 2, but DDB-C scenario 1.

But I do sense some frustration. Do you want to talk about it?


I was aiming at Swenslim's comment about a Fortress Balikpapan being gamey, we have already battled over the FP gambit when CR tried it.

IMVHO, the only variable assets the AFB has in the early month are the 2 weak Indian Bdes and 18 British Divm these are his only tools to throw a spanner in the works rather than deliver them up to Singapore to be wasted.

As mentioned, there is an emphasis on Palembang which both players must plan for, and is often the case of being "the firstus with the mostest".


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RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/2/2013 4:20:20 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline 		From my perspective as a JFB, a Fortress Palembang strategy by the Allied player is not gamey, especially under DaBigBabes where refineries no longer produce supplies.

If an Allied player wants to commit forces there, by all means, that should be open to him. A good, alert Japanese player should be able to have the approaches to Palembang covered by Netties within a few days and punish any Allied reinforcement convoys.


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Post #: 24
RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/2/2013 5:03:40 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

From my perspective as a JFB, a Fortress Palembang strategy by the Allied player is not gamey, especially under DaBigBabes where refineries no longer produce supplies.

If an Allied player wants to commit forces there, by all means, that should be open to him. A good, alert Japanese player should be able to have the approaches to Palembang covered by Netties within a few days and punish any Allied reinforcement convoys.




agree at 100%

However, in a modding prespective, i think that probably the concentration of all those oil fields in a single 40miles hex isn't exactly suitable for a good gameplay. Probably spreading the oilfields among 4 different hexes (new dot bases for example) would help to prevent the eccessive importance that every player needs to give to Palembang hex

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Post #: 25
RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/3/2013 11:33:34 AM   
David The Great

 

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Status: offline 		That point (concentration in one hex ) goes for other bases also, unless the production is concentrated at one point ( mines for resources ) one could argue a case for spreading al resources and oil on the map.

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Post #: 26
RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/3/2013 2:31:14 PM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David The Great
That point (concentration in one hex ) goes for other bases also, unless the production is concentrated at one point.


This is not the case for resources. The whole "japanese perimeter" (Indies, Burma, China, Japan) has about 3000 oil centres (3255 if you repair everything). Sumatra has 1400, or 47%, Palembang (one hex) 900 or 30%. Refineries are like 3300 (3800 all repaired), with over 1000 in Palembang. You won't have such concentrations for resources.

Besides, about half your resource centres are in the Home Islands, and a large part of the rest is on the continent, ready to ship to Japan over short lanes. For oil, 10% comes from the home islands, and convoy lanes are long.

Francois




< Message edited by fcharton -- 1/3/2013 3:42:10 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Palembang in ruins - 1/4/2013 8:03:29 AM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		And dont forget and that xAK can move fuel. So use tankers to move primarally oil and xAK to move fuel to Home Islands.

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Post #: 28
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