Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Kamil

Sorry Pelton, but you are are completely wrong.

He has beaten you badly and everyone knows it, but you just can't accept truth and keep moaning about it.

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ORIGINAL: Kamil

T11 Moscow (German)


Main line wasn't breached. Soon troops from Leningrad theatre will arrive and I should be safe here at least until panzers from AGN get transferred to central part of front.

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Marquo

He is going for the rail lines to isolate the city from behind - becareful.

Marquo

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bigbaba

indeed. you dont need all the western and kalinin front armies infront of moscow. you can for sure transfer a lot of troops to the north and south. the great defensive terrain there will benefit you and make it easier to stop the flanking attack.

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

That's right, he is working extremely well within the boundaries of what the engine allows. But I am just stunned by this (unrealistic) progress, and as such I am really deterred from playing multiplayer.

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

That is why I play the Soviet AI on 119 or 114 morale and German logistics at 60. I only captured Smolensk around mid-August, Kiev still hasn't fallen on turn 12 now (though I've completed the link-up between Panzer Groups 1 and 2 north of Sumy). It is doubtful whether Leningrad will fall (I just captured Shlisselburg), as the hex next to Pavlovo is guarded by 2-3 Soviet divisions at around 60-70 morale with level 3 forts (and not to mention of the other masses in reserve mode). Granted I am not a great player, but logistics at 60 and the rule of only transports being allowed for fuel transportation (unless the target unit is encircled) really puts a dent on how far the Panzers can advance. And I'm honestly having much fun with this.

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ORIGINAL: Pelton

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

That is why I play the Soviet AI on 119 or 114 morale and German logistics at 60. I only captured Smolensk around mid-August, Kiev still hasn't fallen on turn 12 now (though I've completed the link-up between Panzer Groups 1 and 2 north of Sumy). It is doubtful whether Leningrad will fall (I just captured Shlisselburg), as the hex next to Pavlovo is guarded by 2-3 Soviet divisions at around 60-70 morale with level 3 forts (and not to mention of the other masses in reserve mode). Granted I am not a great player, but logistics at 60 and the rule of only transports being allowed for fuel transportation (unless the target unit is encircled) really puts a dent on how far the Panzers can advance. And I'm honestly having much fun with this.

The down side to that is late war SHC steam roller, unless your creative as GHC.

I have never used bombers to transport fuel and can still take Moscow by turn 12 vs AI on hard. WitE's AI is the best I have ever played agaist, but still no match for human vs human.

The logistics at 60 can easly be over come chaining HQB's. I am still tring to figure out MT's fuel tactics. More of a rotation very much like my chaining tactic. Nothing that can be patched out of the game.

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Michael does not use exploits, eg doing things like muling

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Until people insist that Michael expose himself to random weather, we're going to keep seeing games like this. It is the only thing you can do to throw a spanner across his optimized logistical machine. Only the occasional and unexpected mud turn with slow that down and introduce an element of uncertainty into his calculations.

Right now he is mostly just playing against himself. So long as he makes no errors, it is a mathematical certainty that he will end his games in or shortly after 1941. The Soviet player is merely a bystander here.

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

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ORIGINAL: Pelton

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

That is why I play the Soviet AI on 119 or 114 morale and German logistics at 60. I only captured Smolensk around mid-August, Kiev still hasn't fallen on turn 12 now (though I've completed the link-up between Panzer Groups 1 and 2 north of Sumy). It is doubtful whether Leningrad will fall (I just captured Shlisselburg), as the hex next to Pavlovo is guarded by 2-3 Soviet divisions at around 60-70 morale with level 3 forts (and not to mention of the other masses in reserve mode). Granted I am not a great player, but logistics at 60 and the rule of only transports being allowed for fuel transportation (unless the target unit is encircled) really puts a dent on how far the Panzers can advance. And I'm honestly having much fun with this.

The down side to that is late war SHC steam roller, unless your creative as GHC.

I have never used bombers to transport fuel and can still take Moscow by turn 12 vs AI on hard. WitE's AI is the best I have ever played agaist, but still no match for human vs human.

The logistics at 60 can easly be over come chaining HQB's. I am still tring to figure out MT's fuel tactics. More of a rotation very much like my chaining tactic. Nothing that can be patched out of the game.

That's the beauty of single player, when the tide turns (like blizzard, or from 1943 on) I can just tune back the settings to 100 or so. As for HQB's, I don't chain them. If I'm already imposing such rules like a limit on recon, or a limit on fuel transports, no Lvov opener, in order to achieve realistic operation tempo, then I sure am not going to go for masses of HQB's.

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ORIGINAL: OddBall2

Feel compelled to jump in here regarding the endless nerfing, for what it worth. The game has definitely become my addiction. Rush home every day after work to see the new posts. Regarding the mulling, chaining, HQBU, etc. The game needs to stay a 50-50 chance to win for either side. This means the Germans need to have a 50/50 chance to win the game in 41 or 42. The endless nerfing because one of the top players like a Pelton, or MT or Sillyflower or Comrade P etc. etc, has figured out a way to tweak out some last bit of fuel or fort building speed or what ever. Does not always need to be nerfed. If MT gave me this game against Kamil after turn 4 or 5. Kamil would still kick my butt because he is so much better then me at the game. The game is so complex that half the fun is trying to figure how to endlessly improve (figure out)your strategy/logistics/TOE etc. But nerfing something because one person has figured something out. Robs all of us newbies of the fun of figuring it out also. I new I was in trouble when early on one of the seniors told someone to "read the code"!!! The vast majority of this game's buyers are not computer programmers or statisticians. We are middle aged guys who played the board games in the late 70's early 80's. It seems to me the top players are the ones who spend the most time and effort on the game (And I Mean A Lot Of Time And Effort). That is what makes them the top players!!! Lets us newbies grow and have fun learning the tricks of the trade also. Saw Pelton can get to Moscow in 12 turns without air fueling or HQBU's? I cannot get there in 12 turns with Air drops and HQBU's. See that's what I am talking about.

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ORIGINAL: bigbaba

actualy there is no point for the soviet to defend forward. because of the unbrealistic german supply you will get your troops (mostly south and sw front) encirceld and destroyed very soon. dont get me wrong. the game is great and maybe the best large scale game about barbarossa but there are few things which prevent the people from playing a "realistic game". stalin would never allow the red army to give up western ukraine but also the germany had no chance to be at kiev by july. actualy it took them until september to cross the dnjepr in the south in force.

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ORIGINAL: Pelton

The facts are:

1. Stalin killed off the best commanders.
2. Russian units only trained to do offensive tactics. None of the 4 fronts had a single plan to do defensive operations, NONE. All the plans were for offensive operations.
3. All the divisions were in positions to conduct a counter attack or and out right offensive on the western borders with Germany.

Stalin would not and shot anyone who disagreed with his strategy.

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ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The facts are:

1. Stalin killed off the best commanders.
2. Russian units only trained to do offensive tactics. None of the 4 fronts had a single plan to do defensive operations, NONE. All the plans were for offensive operations.
3. All the divisions were in positions to conduct a counter attack or and out right offensive on the western borders with Germany.

Stalin would not and shot anyone who disagreed with his strategy.

I'm sorry, but you are talking rubbish here.

As to the issues of what is realistic. Well there have always been players of wargames who effectively see them as nothing but complex chess. So if its not banned by the rules, its legit. Its a point of view I recognise exists, its not a point of view I agree with.

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ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The facts are:

1. Stalin killed off the best commanders.
2. Russian units only trained to do offensive tactics. None of the 4 fronts had a single plan to do defensive operations, NONE. All the plans were for offensive operations.
3. All the divisions were in positions to conduct a counter attack or and out right offensive on the western borders with Germany.

Stalin would not and shot anyone who disagreed with his strategy.

I'm sorry, but you are talking rubbish here.

As to the issues of what is realistic. Well there have always been players of wargames who effectively see them as nothing but complex chess. So if its not banned by the rules, its legit. Its a point of view I recognise exists, its not a point of view I agree with.

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

And I don't know why it is ignored, maybe because Hitler didn't have them shot, (Then again, Stalin didn't shoot all that many during the war either IIRC.), but German commanders got fired as well for not doing what he wanted..

von Leeb, List, Hoth, Guderian, (sure, he was appointed Inspector General of Armored Troops, but as far as WiTE is concerned, he is out of the game from 12/25/41 to 7/21/44 when he replaces Zietzler, who replaced Hadler.) To name just a few

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Stalin did not kill off...90% of all commanders all the way down to company level??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

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I will again stick to historical facts...

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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Stalin did not kill off...90% of all commanders all the way down to company level??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Do you even read the materials that you cite? Obviously not...

You state above that 90% of commanders to company level were killed. This is so fantastically, unbelievably wrong I'm not sure what to say. To quote the source that you cite ('ve helpfully bolded the wording which completely contradict the point you are trying to make):
***************
At first it was thought 25-50% of Red Army officers were purged, it is now known to be 3.7-7.7%. Previously, the size of the Red Army officer corps was underestimated, and it was overlooked that most of those purged were merely expelled from the Party. Thirty percent of officers purged in 1937-9 were allowed to return to service.
*********************
So to recap:
--At most, 7.7% of the Red Army officers were purged.
--Most of the purged officers were expelled from the Communist party, not killed.
--30% of purged officers were allowed to return to service.

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I will again stick to historical facts...

haha. I wish I could say that I thought you had a good sense of humor, but I think you really believe your drivel...