RE: Are escorts good for anything?

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RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/10/2013 6:16:06 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
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I don't think you understand, turtlefang and Trifler.
If you have ship design automaton off and ship building off, you have no explanation to do anything you have written.
Turtlefang for instance, claims that he designs mission specific ships, but he gives no logical explanation to why he would restrict his unit sizes to the preconcieved notions of ship class sizes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ship Classes: Escort, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Capital.
Ship Size: Only limited by tech level and other race related bonuses. Any Ship Class can have any Ship Design assigned to it up to the maximum build size at that point.

For the purposes of how the AI operates,
1. What are the differences in how the AI uses the current Ship Classes?
2. What, if any, reasons are there to apply an arbitrary ship size limit to the Ship Designs used for the current Ship Classes?

We can all play on manual using designs for roles as we like, but resolving the issues with the AI control will benefit the AI races and lead to a more challenging play environment.

1) Escort ships are not included in Automated Fleet. Every other ship can be included.
All ships can patrol and escort and attack, but Cruisers and Capitals are likely to be included in Fleets automatically, and so don't do so.

There is supposedly design templates for each ship type for every race somewhere in the Distant Worlds Files. It is deifferent for every race, but they all follow the same broad guidelines.
Destroyers tend to be designed as the starting point of containing troop transports, Cruisers tend to be designed as to the start of having Fleet Countermeasures and Fleet Targetting component and fighter bay component, and Capital Ships tend to be designed with the recharging shield component. As you go up the ship types, they are deliberately designed to use less engines relative to their size, so they become slower as well.

2) For any ships intended to have a combat role, there doesn't appear to be one, no matter what those saying that they design smaller faster ships say, since the larger the ship, the faster it can be. The space efficiencies of being larger makes them faster. The fact that there are people who consistently think otherwise is bizarre.

For pirates, there is a good reason why you may want your raiding ships to be no bigger than a certain size, since you usually don't need mroe than a certain amoutn of boarding pods, and being able to subdivide your raiding amount is a good idea.

I think smaller ships may have a bigger evasion chance, but I am not sure.

Simply put, if you can design ship types or choose which ships to build, there is no reason to build Escort style ships, (ignoring Pirates who raid, but they funnily enough start off with a decent Escort design, becuase it is larger than normal and raiders effieciency is different.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paShadoWn

The main difference between escorts and the rest is that AI doesnt put them into fleets as often and they tend to loiter around bases. Which makes their role quite obvious: to delay enemies until nearby task force arrives. Thus lots of engines and long ranged weapons, standoff/evade and fighter bay. Or tons of shields and ion cannons.

Except that you just denied the reality that Escorts are infact, not designed with long range weapons at all, or shields, or ion cannons. Not to mention, if they were designed with that that style, they would be bad at escorting, which is what the Ai make them do more than any other ship.

< Message edited by Plant -- 6/10/2013 6:22:03 PM >

(in reply to Sithuk)

Post #: 31

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/10/2013 8:18:55 PM

turtlefang

Posts: 334
Joined: 7/18/2012
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Plant -

Reread my post. I don't restrict my ships to preconcieved stats. The escorts I quoted were 300 pts in size which is twice the size of a "recommended" escort.

I have just found a use for 300 pts size ships, escort frigates for trade lane protection, specialized combat scouts (which I didn't list a size for but I build as big as I am able), and then crusiers and battleships.

The 300 pts ships protect bases and trade lanes where I don't need a 1000 pt ship crusier or battleship.

So the explanation is simple - I have found a use for two or three small ships in the 300 pt range protecting spaceports. And I keep the pirate population off my cargo ships by using 400 pt frigates - and I don't need to waste the money, resources or time in building a 1000 pt ship to do that.

If you want to put 1000 or even 1500 pt convoy escort duty, feel free to do so. I have just found it to be highly inefficient use of resources. By that time in the game, a 400 pt ship can handle virtually anything a pirate can throw at it unless hit by a fleet - and I just haven't seen those in the mid to end game.

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 32

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/12/2013 5:02:30 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
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Turtlefang-

Reread my post. Or not, your choice. 300 size is twice the size of recommended escort, is still your preconcieved notion of escort size and role. Why have 2 or 3 smaller ships, and not make a ship 3or 2 times bigger for protecting your starports? You are wasting money, resources and time precisely because you are building a smaller ship to protect a starport. 1 or 2 ships with a chance of arriving a second faster is not going to offset the survivability of a lager ship costing just as much as the 2 or 3 ships protecting that starport. You are being cost inefficient, wasting your money, resources and time precisely because you are building larger numbers of small ships to protect a starport.

As for convoy escort duty, there is no need to assign any ships to do so. That's your problem. Escorting isn't useful in general. Freighters can only be under attack in system. One ship per system is all you need, making them small will just incure losses.

That's just one role. Why bother making cruisers almost as big as you can make them? Your role intended is a combat role, just like you said for capital ships. There is no reason for not making them use up all the space that they can.

(in reply to turtlefang)

Post #: 33

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/12/2013 7:15:44 PM

turtlefang

Posts: 334
Joined: 7/18/2012
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Plant -

A 300 size escort isn't a preconceived notion of an escort size. It has been determined by experimenting with the game that this size works best for this role. Mid to late game pirate ships and raiders simply fail against this type of defensive force.

Go back and test the game. Patrol/attack stances are NOT working as reported in multiple post. Multiple ships in a system increase the chance that at least one of them will react. Having only one ship in a system decreases the chances of a reaction to an pirate incursion and boarding party invasion. Test it out in the editor. You will see that having multiple ships gives MUCH better results than a single, large ship.

Ships set on patrol right now DO NOT STAY in the area. Again, test it out. See other post. It has been reported by many other people. Having multiple ships in the area strongly increases the likelihood that one or more of the ships will be around when something hostile arrives. The ships wander off. Then wander back. Right now, that is the way the game works.

And one ship cannot handle multiple pirate ships within a system at one time attacking from different directions. It means that troops will land on the planet. It is really that simple. And letting pirates land mean one thing - lost revenue. Either troops die, or population dies defending against the pirates, or, worse case, the pirates take the planet. And you will see that a single, large ship doesn't provide the protection that three smaller ships do. Test it in the editor.

Multiple smaller ships are better than one large ship over the long haul. If Matrix fixes the Patrol stance issue, that may change. But that is NOT the way the game works right now. TEST IT OUT, SEE FOR YOURSELF.

As far as building cruisers the same size as capital ships, reread my post. I use that class for deep raiding and design them differently. It is convenient to use the cruiser class for that purpose and the capital ship class for another. It makes it easier to retrofit and upgrade.

Re escorting. Yes, I know that freighters can only be attack in system. But I also know that I don't have a spaceport in every system so I need escorts for those systems where I don't have spaceports. Not really hard to understand as I don't want to assign a ship guard to every mining station - or potential trading location. It is not economical. So escorting is useful. In general, one escort for every three to four mining stations will decrease freighter losses substantially.

And economically, your better off by protecting these freighters. The protection more than out weights the "freighter loss replacement benefit" when the private sector buys a new freighter to replace the loss. Nearly always, the loss in revenue from transporting and selling resources at spaceports is greater than the purchase price of a new freighter due to the delay in getting the freighter PLUS the time in making it first round trip. You actually benefit TWICE from resources mined. Once when the freighter picks them up from the mining station commerce center, once from the commerce center of the spaceport when they are sold. This more than makes up for the freighter replacement cost and covers the overhead of the escorts.

And if you replace those escorts with, say, with a 1000 pt ship, the economics doesn't work out as well. You then have a smaller economy overall. And if you don't escort, you have a smaller economy overall. So yes, escorting actually pays off. And it pays off rather well. And that payoff actually INCREASES as the galactic population increases and the demand for goods goes up. Either the number of units of each good sold is increased or the price goes up. Either way, you win. The game has a built in inflation model in the economy until major war breaks out and trade breaks down. And then, you will need the resources to rebuild your fleets. Which means, you still need the freighters but even more raiders appear to attack them.

The game's only partially about combat. The bigger side of the game is economics to pay for the stuff that is fun - ships, troops, colonies, and all the rest. And you have to understand what drives the economy. Claiming only big ships work best in all cases doesn't maximize your economy.

So that is why you bother to make multiple size ships and why different sizes have different roles.

As the FBI says, follow the money.

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 34

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/14/2013 5:01:25 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

Plant -

A 300 size escort isn't a preconceived notion of an escort size. It has been determined by experimenting with the game that this size works best for this role. Mid to late game pirate ships and raiders simply fail against this type of defensive force.

Go back and test the game. Patrol/attack stances are NOT working as reported in multiple post. Multiple ships in a system increase the chance that at least one of them will react. Having only one ship in a system decreases the chances of a reaction to an pirate incursion and boarding party invasion. Test it out in the editor. You will see that having multiple ships gives MUCH better results than a single, large ship.

Ships set on patrol right now DO NOT STAY in the area. Again, test it out. See other post. It has been reported by many other people. Having multiple ships in the area strongly increases the likelihood that one or more of the ships will be around when something hostile arrives. The ships wander off. Then wander back. Right now, that is the way the game works.

And one ship cannot handle multiple pirate ships within a system at one time attacking from different directions. It means that troops will land on the planet. It is really that simple. And letting pirates land mean one thing - lost revenue. Either troops die, or population dies defending against the pirates, or, worse case, the pirates take the planet. And you will see that a single, large ship doesn't provide the protection that three smaller ships do. Test it in the editor.

Multiple smaller ships are better than one large ship over the long haul. If Matrix fixes the Patrol stance issue, that may change. But that is NOT the way the game works right now. TEST IT OUT, SEE FOR YOURSELF.

None of the above applies to me, I just select nearby ships and attack. Easy. 1 in system is better than 3 in the same system. I don't know what is up with your assumption that I haven't noticed basic gameplay issues, nor with the assumption that the only force that you will ever have to protect against are pirates, which by the way, by late game, 2 or 3 size 300 ships will not be adequate for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

As far as building cruisers the same size as capital ships, reread my post. I use that class for deep raiding and design them differently. It is convenient to use the cruiser class for that purpose and the capital ship class for another. It makes it easier to retrofit and upgrade.

And yet you consistently fail to reason why yo would make cruisers close to as large as possible as opposed to as large as possible except for role playing reasons. Roleplaying is fine, passing them off as effective decision making is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
Re escorting. Yes, I know that freighters can only be attack in system. But I also know that I don't have a spaceport in every system so I need escorts for those systems where I don't have spaceports. Not really hard to understand as I don't want to assign a ship guard to every mining station - or potential trading location. It is not economical. So escorting is useful. In general, one escort for every three to four mining stations will decrease freighter losses substantially.

Escorting is rarely useful, as most time is spent in hyperspace, where the ships cannot be attacked anyways. Costructor ships are few enough that you can guard in system patrolling, or if by escorting, there are few enough that you wouldn't want to use many smaller ships to escort each constructor ship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

And economically, your better off by protecting these freighters. The protection more than out weights the "freighter loss replacement benefit" when the private sector buys a new freighter to replace the loss. Nearly always, the loss in revenue from transporting and selling resources at spaceports is greater than the purchase price of a new freighter due to the delay in getting the freighter PLUS the time in making it first round trip. You actually benefit TWICE from resources mined. Once when the freighter picks them up from the mining station commerce center, once from the commerce center of the spaceport when they are sold. This more than makes up for the freighter replacement cost and covers the overhead of the escorts.

Economically,you are better off not escorting those freighters, safe up the fuel and maintenance costs for ships elsewhere, increase combat cost efficiency by not assigning ship uselessly. No idea why you are talking about the benefits frieghters can bring, as if I ever said that they were not. You beneifit from frieghters without wasting resources by escorting them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

And if you replace those escorts with, say, with a 1000 pt ship, the economics doesn't work out as well. You then have a smaller economy overall. And if you don't escort, you have a smaller economy overall. So yes, escorting actually pays off. And it pays off rather well. And that payoff actually INCREASES as the galactic population increases and the demand for goods goes up. Either the number of units of each good sold is increased or the price goes up. Either way, you win. The game has a built in inflation model in the economy until major war breaks out and trade breaks down. And then, you will need the resources to rebuild your fleets. Which means, you still need the freighters but even more raiders appear to attack them.

The problem is that you either left ship production automated, or ship automaton on or something. I don't, and is using my resources and protect my economy far more efficiently than you. You argue that if escort, then that size is effective, I argue that there is no need for escorting, therefore I your argument is invalid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

The game's only partially about combat. The bigger side of the game is economics to pay for the stuff that is fun - ships, troops, colonies, and all the rest. And you have to understand what drives the economy. Claiming only big ships work best in all cases doesn't maximize your economy.

So that is why you bother to make multiple size ships and why different sizes have different roles.

As the FBI says, follow the money.

Snide remark to imply that I don't understand the economical side the the game at all, because I can articulate clearly about "fun" combat. I never claimed big ships work best for all cases, if you bothered to read my posts, only that for ships intended for combat, which are your ship designs we were discussing.

As the I say, I am Plant.

(in reply to turtlefang)

Post #: 35

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/14/2013 11:46:57 PM

Bingeling

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

Re escorting. Yes, I know that freighters can only be attack in system. But I also know that I don't have a spaceport in every system so I need escorts for those systems where I don't have spaceports. Not really hard to understand as I don't want to assign a ship guard to every mining station - or potential trading location. It is not economical. So escorting is useful. In general, one escort for every three to four mining stations will decrease freighter losses substantially.

One escort for every 3-4 mining stations? That is almost nothing.

Shadows have shaken things up a bit with the pirate raiding business. Once the initial pirates are beaten (which should be a tad easier with armor working), it is mostly back to the same old stuff. The odd raid on a mining station from weak pirate factions.

When has escorting freighters been needed? Not in my games. I see them attacked going to independents in Shadows. It is not a bright idea of them to go there, and the attacks are not something a couple of escorts will stop while independents are not yet part of empires. Other freighters attacked are usually caught up in war and blasted by a base aoe or something.

Constructions ships? I never escort them, and have not noticed losing them. It has probably happened, but not frequently enough for me to notice. And from Shadows I know that construction ships can be hard to kill until ships are quite powerful and either fast or long ranged.

I don't play a lot of games, but my impression is that in Shadows, you need to protect your colony systems as long as the system is subject to pirate raids. That is usually until the colonies there are powerful and well protected (so that pirates no longer consider them targets), or the pirates are dead/far away. Once that is over it is probably back to the same old business. A small fleet in every sector or thereabouts. And some larger ones within some sort of striking distance. In addition I have some proper mobile defenses, but that is fleets of 15 large ships, not a few escorts.

Any attack larger than "2-3 pirate frigates" is not trivial to stop. Enemy strike fleets are larger, as can pirate fleets be in shadows. I very much doubt a few escorts make a difference when those happen. I hazard a guess that if I play a Shadows game far enough, and don't have the original early days defensive fleets still present due to not bothering to disband them, my lineup with AI designs would look pretty much like it did at the end of the Yor AAR in legends (when I was probably the stronger empire).

The end lineup was: 41 destroyers, 110 cruisers, 55 carriers. Capitals were not available when the game ended.

Which I think was deployed as:

10 fleets of 4 destroyers to give some border protection from pirates, and some mine busters during war. There are always "small jobs" to do during wars, and the major fleets can't do all of them.
2 large fleets of 20 cruises and 10 carriers to bust colony defenses.
7 fleets of 10 cruisers and 5 carriers to fight normal battles and defend colonies during war.
And 1 destroyer leading the invasion fleet that otherwise had only troop transports.

Escort duty? I usually send a fleet ahead of colony ships until the game matures and I don't bother anymore. Automated ships? If pirates are annoying in a very mature game.

(in reply to turtlefang)

Post #: 36

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/16/2013 10:47:33 AM

DarkThug

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Joined: 6/13/2013
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Numerical min-max speaking, there is none. Distant world suffer the same fate as most, if not all, space 4X game out there. Once you get the bigger ship there is no real reason to look back to smaller one any more.

Larger ship will beat smaller ship, period.
When going into battle with either 1 cruiser or 4 frigates. You may end up with a heavily damaged cruiser or 3 dead frigates (or some stranded which you will scrap them anyway)

Offensively speaking, just like Plant said, there is no real reason to bring smaller ship at all.
Matrix games should applied some sort of Escort-to-Capital ship ratio fleet bonus already !!

Defensively speaking, however, Is there any use for smaller ship ?, Hell YES !!

When you have 50 colonies and 200 mining stations to defend,
You don't need 250 LARGEST ships in your arsenal at every stations.
You simply need 250 BIG ENOUGH ships to fend off pirate threats.

The "big enough" can be vary. It can be 160 size early game, it can be 300 mid game, it can be 500 or even 1000 late game. Frankly speaking, I have yet to see pirate progress that far. They usually falling behind normal empire technological-wise after sometime. This conceivable size of mine didn't come from groundless assumption. It came from my experience. It may not be perfect and can be improved in many ways but making every single ships into largest size possible is not one of them. Economically at least.

With Automation on, you can bring the number down to 100 ships all over the empire.
With care and micro management, you can even down it to 50 ships and archive the same result with even less cost.
That is how the world work. Micro management will always yield better result than automation.
Unless DW AI is so godly which we all know we aren't there yet

Moreover, when you have 100 systems to take care of, Pause the game to react to every single one of attacked notifier can quickly be tiresome.
This can easily take away what you suppose to get from this game, Enjoyment (Not Efficiency). If you enjoy doing it, that is fine as well. However, I believe we are playing Distant worlds here and setting up automaton is also part of the game.

Now to current DW automation, I experience the same thing as turtlefang, The ship automation is quite retard and slow to react.
If you entrusted system defense to AI, rather than having a single size-1200-cruiser protect a system, having 4 size-300-Frigates give you better chance that one of them will actually react to the threat in time.

This is why My empire have hundreds of Frigate class in service (A minimally big enough ship that can actually beat something class) I might as well call this class a destroyer or a smaller cruiser or a not the biggest capital ship. This is the beauty of DW you define what a class be.
All of them will be put into fleets and assign to all my important systems in defend the sector fleet posture. When the need arise, These frigate fleets can respond and do any "small" job need to be done in war as well. During peace they will go back to their Home Base and stay on automation there.

Back to OP topic : Now to the Escort class itself (A tiniest ship with minimal weapon and armor class), do I have the use of them in my game ? well, I do. I will admit though that it's mostly for decoration. It make my Empire lively

. Seeing ships running about doing their own business give me joy, Civilian and Military alike. There is a design I think work quite well. A tiny missile boat, 100ish size 2 missile 1 shield 1 armor 40+ cruise speed, with standoff, standoff, flee when 50% shield setting. Its job isn't to actually kill something but to harass enemies, to distract them, to "escort" until the target get away or to buy enough time until reinforce arrive and it does its job well. I let all of them roam freely outside fleet. When enemies pop up at one of my station, there are usually 1-2 Escorts flying around. They will proceed to shooting at and kiting enemies, distracting some firepower away from the station itself. Usually long enough for my frigate fleet to move its ass and arrive the scene without losing the station. With range and speed, It will always fight at maximum range. It can outrun any other ships. So I don't lose one so often. (I'm considering changing setting to flee when attacked as well)

One joy of Distant Worlds is to click at one of attacked notifier and see that the AI have already take care itself without my interference.

(in reply to Bingeling)

Post #: 37

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 6/16/2013 8:19:51 PM

invaderzim

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline

quote:

Numerical min-max speaking, there is none. Distant world suffer the same fate as most, if not all, space 4X game out there. Once you get the bigger ship there is no real reason to look back to smaller one any more.

Small ships were very viable in Master of Orion since you could build them cheaply and because they had dodge bonuses that would be further boosted with the latest engines and evasion systems. So you could choose between slow powerful ships that would probably survive a battle or fast cheap expendable ships that you might lose a few of each battle.

However escorts in DW aren't cheap for the amount of firepower you can field. You could try to build very fast escorts that could dodge better, but it would probably come at the cost of being able to mount a reasonable number of weapons. Also those escorts would have to pack so many engines they would be too expensive to be cost effective.

(in reply to DarkThug)

Post #: 38

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 7/24/2013 2:09:42 PM

paShadoWn

Posts: 70
Joined: 6/10/2013
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When playing a pirate, escorts make the bulk of your forces, fitted with pods and tractors and left on auto they do raids and capture occasional ship here and then.

(in reply to invaderzim)

Post #: 39

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 7/25/2013 1:56:46 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
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From: Australia
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I really like the fact the game allows players flexibility to follow their individual philosophies.

That said, if I used Automation, I'd probably want to understand more about the design intent and algorithms used, but since I don't use Automation, I'm not fussed.

Personally I never use escorts. I never use Classes. I simply have a single Military attack ship design, which is always based on the largest available size. They are organised primarily into fleets with some left outside of fleets for manual defence early to mid-game only. Typically the number outside fleets is no higher than 40.

I design my private ships so they are relatively fast, and past the early game, they are able to escape when attacked. There is no need to escort them as losses are rare.

With constructors, for debris fields I'll clear space creatures first, then generally leave then unescorted. There is no need to escort them as losses are rare.

For constructors relatively early that are building say Super Luxuries that are not close to home, I'll normally station a fleet until the base is built, then some manual ships for defence. Due to their economic value, and typically frontier location, some good additional defence is essential.

I upgrade all of my bases regularly during the game. After the early game they will typically have 10 Shields and 10 Torpedoes of the latest design. I try to play a "compact" game early to ensure they are relatively defensible.

I'll have some ships set-up to defend any system or base that is likely to be attacked and then defend those attacks manually. I'll ensure I have plenty of mining bases to meet resource requirements, but normally this is 40-60 mining bases mid-game only, and again they stay "compact" in space early wherever possible.

As soon I'm able ... I'll have an increasing number of Pirate Extermination Fleets doing the rounds, initially to clear the local area, then a wider ring around my territory, then the entire map. The Pirates will normally chuck a hissy fit during the local area clearing, and those Manual defence ships will be often needed, and sometimes a Fleet or two also. But after that it becomes quieter and my bases will also be getting strong enough to defend against the majority of Pirate attacks (e.g. Meridian Shields with Plasma Thunderbolt). I'll tend to keep a few Manual ships around in Frontier systems only while bases are being built.

Certainly by the time I have 50 colonies or 200 mining bases ... or sizes available beyond 650 ... the Pirate Threat is normally long gone.

With this philosophy I rarely take ship or base losses, Pirate raids are only successful very rarely and economically I find it very affordable. As I play large maps it's also important to keep the level of micro-management to a level that remains "fun" which this philosophy achieves, for me anyway.

But hey, each to their own.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/25/2013 2:00:14 AM >

(in reply to DarkThug)

Post #: 40

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 7/25/2013 2:30:29 PM

Plant

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Joined: 4/23/2013
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One thing that people don't seem to take into their roleplaying account is that in real life, before the advent of torpedoes and missiles and planes, larger military ships are overwhelming more powerful than smaller military ships, to the point where simply having twice the tonnage makes the larger ship invincible to any realistic number of smaller ships, which is far more powerful size relationship than distant worlds has. Even with the advent of torpedoes, it takes only a few escorts at a tiny fraction of the cost of the single larger ship to prevent the effect of torpedo ships. So to be honest, I have never understood the clamour for effective small combat ships when none have existed in real life. Even in the modern age, ships need to be above a certain size to be considered as effective ocean faring vessels.

I guess in the end, there is a disconnect between those who roleplay an imagined reality, then act offended that their imagined roleplaying isn't connected to the distant worldss reality of effective strategic or tactical concern.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 41

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/20/2013 2:58:52 PM

Jorgen_CAB

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I have not been playing for very long but I seem to find that smaller ship is useful and even potent with long range weapons and using speed an manoeuvrability as its primary defence. Sort of like torpedo boats and destroyers in WWII. Their smaller size and high mobility make them relatively hard to hit, especially at range.

As long as they can manage to stay away and pound the enemy they are a very good complement in battles since they do make larger ships go out of position trying to catch them.

You can build large ship that are as fast and nimble as small ships, but that kind of defeats the purpose because they are still relatively easy to hit since they are larger so you invested sources in a defence that is not as useful on a larger hull.

I did first try smaller ships with beam weapons, but I found these to be inadequate since closing in with larger ships is suicide and again defeats their purpose as harassment. Although by small I mean ships at sizes of 200-350 in size. Ships smaller than 200 just seem too weak unless very early in the game.

These smaller ships can often confuse the enemy and that will mean they manage to fire of less offensive rounds or do it in an ineffective way. They often can retreat and fight another day if overwhelmed, if they are designed as long range snipers. It might also be useful if you do concentrate on engine/thruster technology when using this strategy since they make them even better. If your overall technology is worse in this area they might not make you much use.

The way I see it you can use both brute force and nimble snipers, you have to keep your goal in mind when doing research.

My planed fleets include...

Escorts (fast, very nimble, torpedoes, PD guns, strong shields and weak armour) 250-350 size (main escort ship for all purposes)
Frigates (fast, nimble, missiles, beams, PD guns, strong shields and weak armour) 450-600 size (fast patrol ships against bigger threats)
Destroyers (medium speed/manoeuvrability, missiles, beams, PD weapons, strong shields and armour) 450-600 size (main fleet combat escort/combat vessel)
Cruisers (fast, medium manoeuvrability, missiles, beams, PD weapons, troops, special equipment, good shields and armour) 600+ size (stand alone ships made for raiding in enemy territory)
Battleships (slow speed/manoeuvrability, fighters, missiles, beams, PD weapons, troops, special equipment, strong shields and armour) 600+ size (Fleet tanks)
Carriers (medium speed, slow manoeuvrability, fighters, beams, PD weapons, special equipment, strong shields, weak armour) 600+ size (regular carrier type ship)

Have not progressed that far in the game yet being new and all... ;)

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/21/2013 10:03:24 AM >

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 42

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/21/2013 8:04:30 PM

Plant

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Amazing thread necromancy. Shame nothing of what you wrote is related to anything else in the thread. Or accurate.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 43

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/21/2013 9:33:53 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

Amazing thread necromancy. Shame nothing of what you wrote is related to anything else in the thread. Or accurate.

Shill out!!

My comment was certainly about the original question in the thread and it was only on the second page in the Forum. I really don't see the problem since these questions seem to pop up now and then anyway in here.

By the way, what was inaccurate?

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/21/2013 11:20:47 PM >

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 44

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/23/2013 8:48:13 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
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So...you admit that what you wrote, bears no relation to the thread in question?

Anyhow what was inacurate you ask?

1) Your mention of manouverability as defence is inaccurate. I was the one who suggested it to you that smaler is more evasive, with the caveat that we don't know how it works, or if it is true.

2) You say a large ship as fast and nimble as a smaller ship defeats the purpose because they are still relatively easy to hit since they are larger so you invested sources in a defence that is not as useful on a larger hull. Even if smaller is more survivable, larger ships are more survivable due to both size and efficiencies gained from size.

3) If ships size 200 seems too weak unless early in the game, then what's stopping size 300 ships seems too weak later in the game? Arbitrary ship size is arbitrary.

4) "These smaller ships can often confuse the enemy and that will mean they manage to fire of less offensive rounds or do it in an ineffective way." NO
"They often can retreat and fight another day if overwhelmed, if they are designed as long range snipers." So can larger ships. Smaller ships are more likely to be destroyed before they are overwhelmed as well.

And then the rest is a list of your personal roleplaying fleet, which also bears no relation to the thread, which is whether escorts are good for anything.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 45

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/24/2013 1:19:59 AM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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Yes... after playing a little more I do agree that smaller ships with fast engines and maneuverability are pretty weak against larger ships in general. Especially if you fight against someone with better technology.

Although I do seem to experience that the smaller ships get hit less often than my larger ships and bases. The in-game help also suggest that smaller size do help in negating being hit, but does not as you say explain directly how.

quote:

2) You say a large ship as fast and nimble as a smaller ship defeats the purpose because they are still relatively easy to hit since they are larger so you invested sources in a defence that is not as useful on a larger hull. Even if smaller is more survivable, larger ships are more survivable due to both size and efficiencies gained from size.

Well, that is not entirely true. If you have two or three ships instead of one bigger ship you can sometimes end up in a situation where that bigger ship is destroyed while only one of the smaller ones is destroyed. So that goes both ways.

quote:

4) "These smaller ships can often confuse the enemy and that will mean they manage to fire of less offensive rounds or do it in an ineffective way." NO

According to the in game help it appear that positioning do have an impact on the efficiency of the firepower of a ship. If it means it can shoot less shots or the take longer to fire or are more inaccurate it does not say. I do take it as if it in same way at least have an impact. If not it is rather silly in my opinion.

In my opinion the weapons in the game should perhaps have more stricter fire arcs as so positioning would become even more important.

Smaller ships are still very useful in offensive operations to engage multiple installations at the same time in many places. Sure, it will require more micromanagement, but if you are willing to do that it is possible.

I would also say that the term small obviously increase with the overall size of the ships in the game. I don't see many ships worth building below 300 in size in any event.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/24/2013 1:18:36 PM >

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 46

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/24/2013 5:06:34 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
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Explain to me how having 2 or 3 ships instead of one bigger ship can result in the larger ship being destroyed? As long all ships are designed in the same way except for size, and with the same amount of resources used.

Next bit is you trying to justify your saying of smaller ships confusing the enemy and some random babble. I'll respond to it with more effort than you put in. NO.

Then you say smaller ships are useful in engaging multiple installations at the same time. Just how many installations are you attacking that you need to build smaller ships so you can attack very single one? A well developed enemy system might have 5-10 bases. And an empire woul have a few of those. At any point in the game, you probably have enough economy to attack every single base with the maximum tehnology size ships. Not that it is possible, since the interface isn't good enough that you can attack every installations at the same time.

In any case, this is just a continuation of your necromantic off topic. Go make a new thread and make an appropriate title if you want to talk about whatever you are talking about.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 47

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 11/24/2013 9:12:25 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

In any case, this is just a continuation of your necromantic off topic. Go make a new thread and make an appropriate title if you want to talk about whatever you are talking about.

Sure... ;)

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/24/2013 10:14:30 PM >

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 48

RE: Are escorts good for anything? - 12/20/2013 5:50:09 PM

WCG

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

In any case, this is just a continuation of your necromantic off topic. Go make a new thread and make an appropriate title if you want to talk about whatever you are talking about.

Actually, it's all been on-topic. I don't want to get involved in what seems to be a perpetual personality conflict (which really is off-topic, I'd think), but I started this thread, so I thought I should note that I appreciate the comments. Other than the nasty tone of some of them, I mean.

Bill

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