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partisans - 6/2/2013 4:32:28 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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found a major issue in the rules..

Germany have no partisans.

that is so wrong.

historically the allies had to keep millions of soldiers in Germany to keep order...

and for game balance. the allied can empty Germany and rail all units to other front and overwhelm Italy or Japan.

that is really not balanced.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

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Post #: 1
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 4:33:48 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
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From: denmark
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that is the reason, why there is a high us entry number for dow against china.

simply to avoid "cheating"

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 2
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 4:49:02 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


found a major issue in the rules..

Germany have no partisans.

that is so wrong.

historically the allies had to keep millions of soldiers in Germany to keep order...

and for game balance. the allied can empty Germany and rail all units to other front and overwhelm Italy or Japan.

that is really not balanced.

I think you are right. It should be taken to the rules committee to adress this and be repaired. IMHO Germany should have at least the same partisan number as France. If we look at post-war Germany and see how much effort the allies had to put in there to impose some kind of order there, the need of a garrison there should be obvious and put into the game.

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Post #: 3
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 6:50:40 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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USA and USSR can each rail 1 unit from Germany to Vladivostok a turn. (3 rail moves) and heavy bombers.

before you know it Usa can have a army group in Manchurian. no Japanese player can counter that.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 4
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 7:51:46 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


USA and USSR can each rail 1 unit from Germany to Vladivostok a turn. (3 rail moves) and heavy bombers.

before you know it Usa can have a army group in Manchurian. no Japanese player can counter that.

However, that's something you can't do anything about. If the USA wants to move an HQ to Vladivostock, together with planes, that's perfectly legal. I don't think a garrison in a conquered Germany will prevent this. What I'm more worried about is the USA/CW TRS emptying Europe of units towards the Pacific. Still, if the German Partisan number is 30, it would probably still mean that Free Frech, CW, USSR and US units only need to remain 8 units for each country in Germany. And that's not that much...

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Post #: 5
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 8:46:43 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Just out of curiosity, how often would this ever likely to be an issue? Interested to hear from all the experienced players as to how often they have come across this scenario - I certainly never did.

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Post #: 6
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 8:51:22 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		every-time you do a Germany first strategic

dont understand the difference ..if you take Italy first you can have partisans, if you take Japan first you can have partisan ..


< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 6/2/2013 8:54:03 PM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 7
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 10:14:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


USA and USSR can each rail 1 unit from Germany to Vladivostok a turn. (3 rail moves) and heavy bombers.

before you know it Usa can have a army group in Manchurian. no Japanese player can counter that.

However, that's something you can't do anything about. If the USA wants to move an HQ to Vladivostock, together with planes, that's perfectly legal. I don't think a garrison in a conquered Germany will prevent this. What I'm more worried about is the USA/CW TRS emptying Europe of units towards the Pacific. Still, if the German Partisan number is 30, it would probably still mean that Free Frech, CW, USSR and US units only need to remain 8 units for each country in Germany. And that's not that much...

Yeah, I agree. It isn't really necessary.

But for the sake of completeness, ADG should come up with some number. For MWIF, it just means editing one number in a data file: 10-15 seconds of work.

---

Germany is the largest Axis major power in terms of Build Points. If Germany has been conquered, Italy doesn't really stand a chance. Furthermore, after the conquest there must be a ton of units available capable of garrisoning Germany. Getting them all over to the Pacific would require a ton of work: trains, ships, and rebasing. It is a long, long way from Berlin to the South China Sea.

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Post #: 8
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 10:27:24 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
my point in this is that there should be no holes in the rules. like that.

if all allies go for an early conquest of Germany (not easy). then the have the rest of the game to move does troops.

but players should not pick strategy because of a hole in the rule

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 9
RE: partisans - 6/2/2013 10:32:27 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
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From: denmark
Status: offline
and there really dont seem to be a good explanation.

have they simply forgotten about it.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 10
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 2:48:33 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		I suggest you first check your history on the Werwolf (Werewolf) and then the Occupation of Germany.

You will find that German partisans were totally ineffectual.

The entire Canadian army went home and ceded its occupied German territory to Great Britain.

American troops were being sent home according to their Advanced Service Rating Scores.


You also need to consider 13.8 Victory check. Does the USSR player really want a USA army in Manchuria at this late stage of the war?



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Post #: 11
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 3:02:49 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Partisan #s were added to Germany on the Patton in Flames version of the map. From Patrice's website:

https://sites.google.com/site/frenchwifpage/home

******************************************
WiF FE Western Europe Map
Changes from '96 to 2000 map

Added '45 east start line in Germany (for patiF)
Added '45 west start line in Germany (for patiF)
Added '45 start line in Italy (for patiF)
Added East Germany & West Germany Partition line (for patiF)
Partisan number added to Portugal (3)
Partisan number added to Morocco (3)
Partisan number added to Algeria (4)
Partisan number added to West Germany (15)
Partisan number added to East Germany (10)


this file continues with a few more of these. easy enough to use them at the end of a game of WiF:Final Edition

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Post #: 12
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 3:09:10 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I suggest you first check your history on the Werwolf (Werewolf) and then the Occupation of Germany.

You will find that German partisans were totally ineffectual.

The entire Canadian army went home and ceded its occupied German territory to Great Britain.

American troops were being sent home according to their Advanced Service Rating Scores.


You also need to consider 13.8 Victory check. Does the USSR player really want a USA army in Manchuria at this late stage of the war?





I know that the German partisans did not make alot of trouble ... but then how could they with the millions of troops there .. Germany had the biggest occupying army of the war ..

Manchuria is a very good place for heavy bombers.


so you are arguing that Germany should have a partisan number of zero.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 13
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 7:47:37 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Since I'm taking it to be true in your post #1 in this thread that no partisan are allocated in Germany there seams to be an oversight somewhere. Vassal has German partisans and as brian brian points out PatiF has German partisans.

Manchuria is a very good place for USSR aircraft units.

That is assuming that the USSR plans to launch Operation August Storm.

Or do you plan to let the USA have the victory point for Port Arthur, Manchuria?

Victory Cities
Aden, Yemen
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Antwerp, Netherlands
Athens, Greece
Baghdad, Iraq
Batavia, Netherlands East Indies
Belgrade, Yugoslavia
Berlin, Germany
Birmingham, England
Bucharest, Rumania
Budapest, Hungary
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Calcutta, India
Canberra, Australia
Cape Town, South Africa
Chungking, China
Colombo, India
Dakar, Senegal
Delhi, India
Diego Suarez, Madagascar
Dutch Harbor, Territory of Alaska
Gibraltar,
Helsinki, Finland
Honolulu, Territory of Hawaii
Istanbul, Turkey
Jerusalem, British Mandate of Palestine
Kiel, Germany
Kiev, USSR
Kwajalein, Marshall Islands
Lan-Chow, China
Leningrad, USSR
London, England
Los Angeles, USA
Madrid, Spain
Manila, Territory of the Philippines
Marseilles, France
Mexico City, Mexico
Milan, France
Munich, Germany
Moscow, USSR
Oslo, Norway
Ottawa, Canada
Pago Pago, Western Samoa
Panama, Republic of Panama
Paris, France
Port Arthur, Manchuria
Prague, Czechoslovakia
Rabaul, New Britain
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Rome, Italy
Saigon, French Indo-China
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Shanghai, China
Singapore,
Stockholm, Sweden
Suez, Egypt
Sverdlovsk, USSR
Taihoku, Formosa
Teheran, Persia
Tokyo, Japan
Truk, Caroline Islands
Vienna, Austria
Vancouver, Canada
Vladivostok, USSE
Warsaw, Poland
Washington, USA
and Wellington, Australia



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 14
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 3:50:28 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Since I'm taking it to be true in your post #1 in this thread that no partisan are allocated in Germany there seams to be an oversight somewhere. Vassal has German partisans and as brian brian points out PatiF has German partisans.

Manchuria is a very good place for USSR aircraft units.

That is assuming that the USSR plans to launch Operation August Storm.

Or do you plan to let the USA have the victory point for Port Arthur, Manchuria?





American units can be in a Russian hex. they just cant stack with them.

so it is up to the allies to make a deal for the victory hexes.

but I think that your point is one of winning and loosing.

we (my group) have always play the game as a joint effort. if the allies won all allied players won.



< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 6/3/2013 3:51:10 PM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 15
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 5:46:35 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		If we look at the values in Patton in Flames, which give the Germany's together a partisan value of 25, I would suggest to ask if this number can be used in MWIF.

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Post #: 16
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 6:41:52 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
what do you mean with together ???

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 17
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 7:16:58 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


what do you mean with together ???

East + West.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 18
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 9:30:15 PM   
gridley

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline 		We did notice this but it was never an issue for our group. That being said, I think that the games will be a little crazier online, so this will have to be fixed.

Not being a programmer and knowing how these things work...make sure that if the USSR and Allied units are in adjecent hexes in Germany they still count toward partisan number and not considered in enemy zoc.


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Post #: 19
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 10:56:36 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
1) American units can be in a Russian hex. They just can't stack with them.

2) So it is up to the allies to make a deal for the victory hexes.

3) But I think that your point is one of winning and loosing.

4) We (my group) have always played the game as a joint effort. If the allies won all allied players won.



1) True if the USA units meet the requirements. I haven't said otherwise.

2) Why should the USSR deal for Manchuria? It is not in their best interests.

3) Yes, otherwise why keep score?

4) Is this an option in MWiF? It is not in the WiFFE-RAW-7.0 ~ 13.8 Victory check rules.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

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Post #: 20
RE: partisans - 6/3/2013 11:10:52 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
1) American units can be in a Russian hex. They just can't stack with them.

2) So it is up to the allies to make a deal for the victory hexes.

3) But I think that your point is one of winning and loosing.

4) We (my group) have always played the game as a joint effort. If the allies won all allied players won.



1) True if the USA units meet the requirements. I haven't said otherwise.

2) Why should the USSR deal for Manchuria? It is not in their best interests.

3) Yes, otherwise why keep score?

4) Is this an option in MWiF? It is not in the WiFFE-RAW-7.0 ~ 13.8 Victory check rules.




house rule..

we also play with areas instead of major powers. so you control all units in one area.



_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 21
RE: partisans - 6/10/2013 6:38:17 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		sort of in the German Partisans file, I read this story today of a few anti-Nazi German troops and a small US Army detachment defending a medieval castle from attack by the Waffen-SS.....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/12/world-war-ii-s-strangest-battle-when-americans-and-germans-fought-together.html?obref=obinsite

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 22
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