RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper)

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 2:55:17 PM

Ketza

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All I can say is one of the most enjoyable games I have has in a long time is the one I am currently in against Bigbaba. Due to recent developments I gave the Axis a +10 morale modifier.

It has been a rather enjoyable contest and I wish I had done an AAR at this point. Bigbaba is a solid opponent and the game is very close to a historical outcome. We just finished Blizzard and the casualties are 3.5 million Soviet vrs 950k for Axis. 1942 will be a hoot I am sure.

Granted I do not have the logistical expertise of MT but the morale feels right in this game and I think its a big factor in the game being more competitive.

Oh and I must point out I did not do a Lvow pocket in this game and Bigbaba chose to fight in the south.

< Message edited by Ketza -- 6/24/2013 2:56:04 PM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 7:13:18 PM

Flaviusx

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That actually sounds like fun, Ketza, but how many people are willing to play it out in the south the way it's supposed to be? On both sides, really. You have to have an Axis player willing to forgo the opener and a Soviet willing to fight it out in the south and not run to the hills (which is perfectly doable without the opener, btw.)

Everybody has settled into this hackneyed and ahistorical way of playing the game which for me at least ruins the immersion. But I salute what you and Bigbaba have done. It sounds like a reasonable approximation of history, including the casualties.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 8:13:50 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That actually sounds like fun, Ketza, but how many people are willing to play it out in the south the way it's supposed to be? On both sides, really. You have to have an Axis player willing to forgo the opener and a Soviet willing to fight it out in the south and not run to the hills (which is perfectly doable without the opener, btw.)

Everybody has settled into this hackneyed and ahistorical way of playing the game which for me at least ruins the immersion. But I salute what you and Bigbaba have done. It sounds like a reasonable approximation of history, including the casualties.

There is nothing unhistorical about the "what if" Lvov opennning.

Historical? what the game must go 100% historical or it is a poj?

You can't throw out Stalin's stupid everyone at the border/offensive strategy. It was his idea as soon as he murdered most of the generals with any smarts from 1936-1938

He had a WW 1 mind set which is clear by his strategy.

2by3 designed a game of "what ifs" I was Hitler or Stalin based from June 22 1941 - July 45, not 1936 - July 45.

Live with it. It is by design.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/24/2013 8:16:21 PM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 8:55:23 PM

Flaviusx

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Pelton, what we know as the Lvov opening is purely an artifact of game design. Indeed, this is the only game on the subject, either on a computer or old school board games, that produces anything like this result. It is ridiculous. It completely distorts the 1941 campaign in this game and introduces a wholly unbelievable dynamic to it. I sincerely hope it goes away in WITE2.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 9:12:02 PM

KamilS

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Don't get me wrong, I think game is imbalanced in Soviet favour, but I agree with Flaviusx.

Lvov pocket spoils game. It leaves Red Army crippled, forcing Soviet player to run away and creates need for artificial increase of Red Army strength.

Unfortunately removing pocket from the game would unbalance it even further - even if Soviet can fight they don't have to. It is enough for them to survive and grind German down in '43 and '44. Without Lvov gambit outcome of the game will be known by turn 10th or so - if Russians don't suffer any disasters by then then Axis fate is sealed.

About house rules preventing retreat.

Personally I would like to play with even more SD rules than now (checks in August and February), but I would refuse game when German player can enter Romanian territory before activation of Romanian forces.

For me most interesting game would be one with very strict SD checks, limited usage of rail cap for troops transferring purpose and no fuel resupplying by air.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 10:48:11 PM

Ketza

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It is certainly a risk the Axis player faces if he does not do the Lvow pocket opening and the Soviet runs for the hills. Or actually the big fat river is a more exact term :)

As far as the Axis player moving extra troops to Rumania I have no issue with this. When I played the boardgame FITE moving a Panzer corps to Rumania was a standard move for my Axis team. iT was the only way to loosen that front up. Most Soviet players usually run from the Rumanian border in this game so its not a big issue as the Panzer coprs is usually punching at air.

< Message edited by Ketza -- 6/24/2013 10:54:06 PM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 10:53:56 PM

smokindave34

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I've really started to enjoy playing as axis but it seems as though the axis player has to have a spectacular turn 1 to really have a good chance of defeating his Soviet opponent. That is too bad really as I enjoy playing into '44-45 (my favorite time period) and it would be a shame if one bad turn would seal the deal on the next 150-200 turns.

I'd certainly be open to not performing the Lvov opening, if my Soviet opponent decided to fight forward in the south (and not transfer units from the south to Leningrad/Moscow). I'm just not sure how specific to get with house rules to make this happen - probably some sort of SD point count for the major cities in the south.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/24/2013 11:11:59 PM

Michael T

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quote:

I'd certainly be open to not performing the Lvov opening, if my Soviet opponent decided to fight forward in the south (and not transfer units from the south to Leningrad/Moscow). I'm just not sure how specific to get with house rules to make this happen - probably some sort of SD point count for the major cities in the south.

+1

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/25/2013 4:58:27 AM

Peltonx

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Arm pts are locked and can't move or hvy is something other then window dressing.

The economic part of the game is a joke really.

Its all about morale and manpower centers.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/25/2013 11:15:37 AM

carlkay58

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Just a note. Historically four Soviet armies were sent north from the south. One helped in the defense of Leningrad while the other three formed the backbone of the initial Smolensk counter attack.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/25/2013 11:51:34 AM

SigUp

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The morale rise since 1.07 is really quick. I just discovered that with my Rumanien units. On turn 15 I railed a Rumanian division back to Rumania with morale 41 to refit. Two turns later it is already on morale 49. Another Rumanian infantry division was sent to Odessa as garrison. On turn 10 when the rails reached Odessa it was on morale 40. Turn 17 it was on morale 50, without refit.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/25/2013 12:22:55 PM

821Bobo

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I have observed this too. Turn 22 and I have 5CV Rumanian divisions.

And yes, It should be nerfed. When pazner stack(60+ def CV) is forced in two consecutive turns(turn 3 and 4!) to retreat from forest hex obviously something is not right.

< Message edited by 821Bobo -- 6/25/2013 12:31:08 PM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/25/2013 12:42:25 PM

Michael T

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Not like we did not tell them

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:26:12 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 (Server game and I forgot screen shots of turn 8!)

Finns - Some resistance shows up on the border.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:30:10 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 AGN

I really made a mess of AGN. Maybe I should have tried to beat down that stone wall Sapper built. I start to withdraw 4th panzer from the swamps. A few attacks here and there. I did pocket 3 division last turn in the swamps so a little bit of good news. This game has gone downhill so fast that I now start to build forts for my expected blizzard line (Pskov!). This will be the first game I don't take Leningrad.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:32:37 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 AGC

I form a small pocket with elements of 2nd and 3rd panzer in the hopes that I can somehow widdle down Sappers army. The pocket won't hold as I have a single motorized division that will get beaten back but I should close it next turn. Just east of the landbridge there is clear terrain without many forts.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:34:33 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 AGC (4th army)

4th army makes fairly good progress and is safely across the next river line. Only minor resistance here. I'm considering sending my panzers down to this area soon as I may be able to outflank Sapper. First I need to get them out of the vice in the landbridge.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:36:21 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 AGS

I rest my panzers this turn and build up two corps. 17th army heads north to try and exploit an area where recon shows few Soviet troops. 6th army continues to knock down level 2 forts. Not sure where to send the panzers next turn - if I send them north with 17th army they may be able to break into the open however there is nothing there worthwhile. If I keep them with 6th army they will be used to crack open more forts. Have to think about that and see what recon shows next turn.

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< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/26/2013 1:37:47 AM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:39:11 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 - Crimea

Airlanding division is across the river. There are still no Soviet forces in the choke points. I rest the panzer corps near D/Z town to try and get their strength and MP up.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:41:37 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 9 - OOB. The numbers are similar at this point as in my game against the Pro's however I'm not nearly as far east as I was in that game. From this point out I will try and form as many small pockets as possible - any counter captured now is one I won't have to deal with during the blizzard.

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< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/26/2013 1:42:01 AM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 1:42:25 AM

smokindave34

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Here is the turn 9 OOB.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/26/2013 8:32:04 PM

hugh04

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This comment really is directed at turns 2 and 3, but makes sense even now. Strong soviet defensive cv's do not get weaker if you ignore them. You must attack them early and often. After many turns of pounding it becomes very hard for the soviet to field strong cv's. Especially on defense, cv is only the starting point. The german has over 20+ pioneer units. Adding 4 to an attack can reduce the fort by 1 or 2 levels. This means 5 attacks a turn can ignore the fort level. On the early turns you do not really attack with mass because your infantry is lagging.

Sapper defended the land bridge very well, but he was not hit hard soon enough. Panzers and pioneers on turns 2 and 3 can deliberate attack while waiting for infantry divisions to arrive. There are times for panzers to fight and too move, I believe too many axis fail to deliberate attack with panzers in the critical turns 2, 3 and 4. You cannot let the soviet breath or rest.

The above aside, the new morale recovery rules are creating some powerful soviet cv's.

Vandev

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/27/2013 9:27:36 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

This comment really is directed at turns 2 and 3, but makes sense even now. Strong soviet defensive cv's do not get weaker if you ignore them. You must attack them early and often. After many turns of pounding it becomes very hard for the soviet to field strong cv's. Especially on defense, cv is only the starting point. The german has over 20+ pioneer units. Adding 4 to an attack can reduce the fort by 1 or 2 levels. This means 5 attacks a turn can ignore the fort level. On the early turns you do not really attack with mass because your infantry is lagging.

Sapper defended the land bridge very well, but he was not hit hard soon enough. Panzers and pioneers on turns 2 and 3 can deliberate attack while waiting for infantry divisions to arrive. There are times for panzers to fight and too move, I believe too many axis fail to deliberate attack with panzers in the critical turns 2, 3 and 4. You cannot let the soviet breath or rest.

The above aside, the new morale recovery rules are creating some powerful soviet cv's.

Vandev

The only work around the poor morale design rules is to have a perfect Lvov opening, then keep the pressure on by as you say attacking with panzer stacks.

If the pressure is on then it will be very hard for SHC to get all units to 50 morale.

Its the snowball effect thing.

GHC players must play perfect to get a draw all things being equal

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:00:21 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 -Finns

The Finnish advance continues. Sapper continues to man the line with brigade size units.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:04:46 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 AGN

Unlike every one of my other games this has become the quiet front. Maybe I gave up to early on Leningrad but the thick defensive belt Sapper had built convinced me I couldn't hammer my way through it. It was similar to the defense MichaelT put up against Pelton in their game and I didn't want my mobile units to get tied down here. Very dissapointing not to take Leningrad.

A few attacks here and there but nothing significant. I kept one panzer corps here to hopefully keep Sapper forces in this area while I try and make some advances further south.

I expect Sapper to be VERY aggressive during the blizzard and hopefully I can bleed him down a lot in this good defensive terrain (I'm trying to be optimistic)

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< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/28/2013 1:07:30 AM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:09:06 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 - AGC

Sapper breaks the pocket as expected but I herd a few more divisions in there this turn and close it up tight. I've got 10 divisions trapped. My focus from here on out is to try and bite off small pockets so that I can survive the blizzard.

Two panzer corps (one from 2nd panzer and one from 4th panzer) are moved south near Mogilev to try and exploit an opening made my 4th army.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:13:27 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 - 4th army.

4th army continues to batter into open territory and I decide to send the two panzer corps I had built up last turn from the south to link up with 4th army. Not much as far as defenses in this area so Sapper will have to react here by pulling back. If he doesn't I'm hoping to use the two panzer corps near Mogilev to form another small pocket.

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:15:03 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 AGS

17th and 6th army continue to slog it out to the east. Sapper keeps pulling back just out of deliberate attack range of most of my infantry divisions.

My minor allies start to dig defenses parallel to the rough and forest hexes near Kiev. Much further west than I normally start to dig my blizzard line but thats the situation I expect to be in during the blizzard.

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< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/28/2013 1:16:14 AM >

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:18:41 AM

smokindave34

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Turn 10 - Crimea

I send my last two panzer corps south toward the Crimea and form another small pocket. I have about 17 divisions in pockets this turn. I though long and hard about sending my panzers down here but decided on it for three reasons 1) I could form another small pocket 2) There are no defenses built in this area 3) It may force Sapper to defend the Crimea (although I will not send any forces towards Sevastopol now since I expect to withdraw west past the Crimea during the blizzard

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RE: Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper) - 6/28/2013 1:40:57 AM

Flaviusx

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You're actually not in terrible shape here if you can keep gobbling up an average of a dozen divisions a turn until winter that's going to add up. Death by a thousand cuts. Sapper hung on a bit too long near the landbridge I think.

Your major problem is Leningrad. He can pretty much throw everything in the center now. You may have to contrive a long right hook here or at least the threat of one just to force him to keep sending stuff north of Moscow.

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