RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 1:03:56 AM

carlkay58

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I went through the various versions of WitE that I have install files for. In each version I started a new game and took the following Soviet Turn 3 reinforcement units and tracked their Morale over five turns. In each case they had the same command structure and were in Refit mode.

Stavka: Shaposhnikov [5/5/5/8 3/5/1/1]
Moscow MD: Tyulenev [6/5/4/6 3/5/1/1]
30th Army: Khomenko [5/5/4/5 2/5/1/1]

1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 13th, 17th, 18th, and 21st Mos. PM Rifle Div

1941 Soviet NM = 40 until 1.05.18 when it went to 50 minus 1/month in 1941.
1.07.06 is where the bug is fixed while 1.07.08 lowered the chances that the increased morale would take effect.
Every version before 1.07.06 showed the same results with little or no variance. It is with the last two versions that things got interesting.

The latest version 1.07.08 actually has a tweak to make large morale gains LESS likely - and yet it raises faster than the previous version. The upshot of the whole thing is that Soviet reinforcements are ready to go two turns after they arrive - about the same time that their TOE hits the upper 90s. Before this they took another two turns for the morale. It is also interesting to note that every version before these still had the units hitting the 50 mark despite the earliest versions having a Soviet NM of 40. Note that the roll for morale gain is obviously conducted after the arrival of reinforcements.

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< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 7/9/2013 1:08:22 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 1:14:33 AM

carlkay58

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Fixing the formula in either of the two ways that I had mentioned above is a major step in resolving the problem. The second necessary step is to adjust the Soviet NM. The current Soviet NM is 50 in June, 1941 and declines by one each month through Dec 41 and then is 45 for 1942. It would probably be easiest to change it to a steady 45 for the entire 1941-42 timeframe. Both things will have to be done in order to fix the problem - anything short of this will not do so.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 1:37:36 AM

NavalNewZ

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.

< Message edited by NavalNewZ -- 7/9/2013 1:44:08 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 2:14:29 AM

mmarquo

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Carlkay,

In all seriousness, what is the problem which needs to be resolved? What evidence do we have that the game, played to the bitter end, is now unbalanced? MT, who beat me soundly, has an understanding of this game superior to none other...and I shed no tear that he is now challenged to wipe STAVKA off the map in '41.

IMHO the stage is now set for a very equal match unless player skill and some luck tips the balance one way or the other.

Cheers

MArquo

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 2:20:38 AM

Michael T

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So this explains why we are seeing Soviets with high CV's at T3 around Smolensk in comparison to previous version.

I agree with your take. Just make Soviet national morale 45 for 1941-1942. Adjust the refit and NM recovery rules to 45 from 50. Allow morale to go a little beyond NM for winning battles (as is now I believe). AND slow the rate of increase down some. To gain 10 morale pts in 3 turns is too much, make it 5 turns.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 2:26:04 AM

Michael T

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Marquo we are assuming a base case where players are evenly matched. This must be the situation we base the balance point on. Using results from one or two outlier players should not influence the problem.

In all honesty, even making the adjustments I and others are proposing the Soviet side will still have the edge, and by some margin. But at least life for German players will be tolerable with this tweak.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 6:24:47 AM

Toidi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

- join 1st and 2nd bullet of 9.1.1 into a single rule (require refit), use NM as reference level
- in the 3rd bullet of 9.1.1 increase the chance to gain up to 10% of NM from current 15% to 100%, but require being on refit and more than 20 hexes to nearest supplied enemy unit
- in the 4th bullet of 9.1.1 use NM as the reference value
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45

That would be way too harsh on the Soviets in my opinion... Changes are needed, but you cannot drop morale to 40, unless you increase Soviet manpower and arm production to levels not seen for a long long time...

I would say that keeping the NM at 46 from the beginning till the increase as scheduled now would probably be enough. Possibly an addition should be removing the rule that on-map x units have NM not lower than 50 no matter what, to remove the slight exploit of building infantry brigades as SU, quickly getting them to 50 morale and merging them into 50 morale divisions (as with divisions, they will only get to NM level )

Other simple (and probably sufficient) fix is to apply the extra rule on increase of the unit morale to NM only from say Jan '42 (for both players), or even March '42. Possibly, one can apply the national morale rule for Axis only, whereas Soviets would have to gain morale by combat and/or refit (but refit would work only until 50).

First proposal is more risky as there may be some additional balance issues (the Soviets in '41 would be likely affected - maybe the magic morale number should be 47 or even 48 - setting it at 45 would make them certainly weaker than before, when somewhat decent player is using them [so when I would be playing, the Soviets with NM of 45 would be quite a bit worse than before the NM rules change]. Scrapping the national morale = 50 rule for small units will also make '42 quite a bit harder for Soviets (as most decent players don't build divisions but just merge brigades).

Second proposal effectively rolls back the morale changes in '41, so the balance in '41 should be restored to pre-patch levels. There still may be issues at late (44?) game when Soviet NM is higher, which is why I tend to think that the NM option should apply to Axis only.

T.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 2:08:23 PM

carlkay58

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Marquo - the original release of the game had Soviet NM=40 and it was raised over a year later to the 50 decreased by 1 each month. In none of the versions previous did the code work as designed. So now the code works as designed and it creates fully trained Soviet units too fast. When you couple this with the rule that Axis destroyed units return but are frozen for five turns, you get a Soviet unit in half the time whereas before this the Soviets also took five turns to be fully trained. Essentially it threw out all of the tweaks and adjustments in the game since release.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 3:13:42 PM

Oberst_Klink

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A general question about how you'd customise the moral settings in the options screen. What percentage would you recommend, even for the AI? Not that I am an inexperienced wargamer, but I noticed in the latest version that the Soviet units at the Road to Series... are a tad too resilient. They barely rout and even when XXXXI. & LVI.PzK are around Leningrad at turn 3; there are already a bunch of CV-4 Soviets along the Volkhov!

Klink, Oberst
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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 3:21:26 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Marquo - the original release of the game had Soviet NM=40 and it was raised over a year later to the 50 decreased by 1 each month. In none of the versions previous did the code work as designed. So now the code works as designed and it creates fully trained Soviet units too fast. When you couple this with the rule that Axis destroyed units return but are frozen for five turns, you get a Soviet unit in half the time whereas before this the Soviets also took five turns to be fully trained. Essentially it threw out all of the tweaks and adjustments in the game since release.

Might have made a lot more sense to start with 45 or 40, and have it go up 1 pts per turn starting August, peaking in January at 55-60, and then declining again to 50 in April. That way at least one part of the blizzard rules would be given a more reasonable grounding, and a real blizzard offensive could only launch if the Red Army was still in any shape for it.
The pros and cons of the moral fix are really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, I like the fact that the Russians can be more staunch now, and holding forward more seriously and counterattacking are more sensible. But then hindsight benefits the Soviets a lot more in that period than the (presumably) small mistakes the Germans made, and if mud hits or poor dice cause a delay, the "average" path for the game not to spiral to extreme situations becomes even narrower. However, in principle a deep German advance should also not be a given in every campaign I believe, and some GC should see the Germans get stuck at the Djenpr, Pskov or Smolensk. What probability for that? I don't know... small, but perhaps as large as for taking LG, Moscow and Rostov to be somewhat balanced.

The main catch I see is what others said already, that all the other rules and features were play-tested and tuned to a broken morale mechanic. With it fixed, things like for example fort-building look again too fast, or retreat and routing probabilities too low. And certainly blizzard, always being a strong artificial shift, doesn't need that much support from the largely artificial and arbitrary combat penalties anymore. However, all that isn't going to be retuned once again anymore, so perhaps a compromise to defuse the "fixed morale rule" a bit is a sound idea...

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 3:55:42 PM

BleedingOrange

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What do people think about leaving the morale rules as they are and removing the 1-1=2-1? The higher CV would allow the Soviets to defend forward and still be able to counter attack but wouldn't be as easy to retreat German units as in the current version. This would also tone down the blizzard hopefully creating a 41 where the Soviets don't feel they have to run so far during the summer and the Germans don't feel they have to give up 15-20 hexes in the winter. I know it's not a perfect fix, but thought I would throw it out there.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 4:42:46 PM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

A general question about how you'd customise the moral settings in the options screen. What percentage would you recommend, even for the AI? Not that I am an inexperienced wargamer, but I noticed in the latest version that the Soviet units at the Road to Series... are a tad too resilient. They barely rout and even when XXXXI. & LVI.PzK are around Leningrad at turn 3; there are already a bunch of CV-4 Soviets along the Volkhov!

Klink, Oberst
temporarily in Pskov, Luftflotte 1

I started a game with the Soviets on 119 against the AI and by turn 8 or so I reduced it to 110. It was no fun, running into boatloads of Soviet Rifle Divisions at 70 (!) morale. So, I think perhaps 115 or so is perhaps better for 1.07 games against the AI. Though I have to note, that I am not a particularly good player (and I am playing with an extensive set of house rules against the AI, like no fuel drops with bombers, no chaining, limited recon). But I am pretty happy with the results. Turn 23 (11-20-41) and I am around the historical frontlines. In the North I failed to capture Leningrad (well, three 70-morale Soviet divisions in level 3 forts at the crossing of Pavlovo, with loads of divisions in reserve, good luck with that) and hold a half-circle from Kolpino to the Volkhov. In the centre AGC is 10 miles away from Moscow, Tula and Kashira have fallen and my infantry is like six hexes away from Voronezh. In the South the lines run from Stary Oskol down the Oskol to Izyum. Stalino unfortunately has not fallen and my attempt to capture the city before blizzard will fail (thanks to the mud

). The losses are 763.000 men for the Axis and 3.5 million for the Soviets. As I'm having much fun with the game, I'm contemplating whether I should write a story-telling AAR about the game.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 7:01:01 PM

carlkay58

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Removing the 1:1 => 2:1 is not a possibility at this time because Joel says 'easy' fix and that one is not as I understand it.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/9/2013 10:03:48 PM

Michael T

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It irrelavent anyhow. From what I see the Soviets with inflated CV and Leadership can easily get 3 and 4 to 1 against entire Pz Cp in open terrain.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 12:37:20 AM

PastrySquirrel

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If they have a rested army in reserve at the site of the breakthrough, maybe. Those tend to be in short supply in '41 against a competent GHC.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 12:37:42 AM

Schmart

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Easy fix? How about simply undoing the morale gain bug fix in recent patches. It never really seemed off to me before the bug fix, so even if the morale gain system wasn't WAD, it still felt somewhat realistic. Undo the bug fix and change the rule to match the "WAD Bug" until WitE 2.0 overhaul.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 8:10:22 AM

morvael

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That would be very damaging to Germans from 1943 onwards. Let's start with something simple as using MIN(NM,50) in the various morale gain formulas and set Soviet NM to 45 for both '41 and '42.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 6:36:15 PM

gingerbread

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Wouldn't MIN(NM,50) limit the Germans in all years?

But simple is good - I suggest a morale limit of 45 + bonuses during 1941 for gains due to the 3rd bullet of 9.1.1 ONLY. No other changes to morale rules (but a check for another bug as I think that bonuses (Elite/Guard & type) are not considered when determining an individual units NM for the purposes of 9.1.1). I'm assuming some kind of Romania nerf as well as an air fueling nerf though I respect that the details of such are not to be discussed in this thread.

Limiting attainable morale to 45 (aside from combat wins) would increase Soviet casualties due to prevalence of routs. Grinding over the entire front from Turn 10 could well see the Soviets being unable to mount an effective blizzard offensive due to casualties if the Axis player so chooses. That would be an Axis 'I Win'-button.

< Message edited by gingerbread -- 7/10/2013 6:40:10 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 7:24:03 PM

morvael

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I don't think it would be a limit. I suggest putting min(NM,50) where in current rules there is placed 50 (bullet 1,2), MIN(NM,75) where 75 is (bullet 4), and leaving NM in bullet 3. That would leave Germans as in the current version, while lowering Soviet and Axis minors to their intended NM rather than 50. If 45 is too low, perhaps 46 or 47 would be ok?

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 8:50:03 PM

gingerbread

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50 is the intended training level, attainable by refit 10+ hexes from the front.

Per above, I think there has to be a way to prevent the Soviet army from turning into mush. Fresh (not fresh = green) troops should have some stamina.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 10:10:34 PM

Peltonx

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If players are new and evenly matched SHC easly wins.

If players are average and evenly matched SHC wins easly.

Again for the 2000th time there are only 5-7 players who can play GHC side and stand a chance of getting draw or win. ALL and I mean all others get their heads handed to them on a plater by 42.

Very very few GHC players are even worth playing the learning curve is very steep, everyone is a good SHC player by default.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 10:12:02 PM

carlkay58

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And that is the current problem. With a runaway by the Soviets, all of their reinforcements come in at 50 morale and are able to stop the Axis like a brick wall by the third or fourth week of July.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 10:25:34 PM

Michael T

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Gingerbread, have you ever played this game against a competent human?

I ask because your take on 45 morale units being mush are at odds with my experience. As a Soviet player I would be very happy with an Army of predominantly morale 45 units. Given I had an Army of mostly 50 morale units, well my wife could be at the controls and win.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/10/2013 10:32:19 PM

Michael T

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To add to the evidence for my stated request at the start of this thread I offer we are now seeing players making thier own adjustments to morale settings. So far I have only seen adjustments that favour the Axis. I am yet to EVER see a Soviet player try to adjust morale in thier favour. That in itself tells you something.

People can theorise all they like. Try playing a game as Axis against a competent Soviet and see how you go.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 12:24:05 AM

Anauso72

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If you are a good german player and your oponent is no lucky you destroy him easy.

The game is balanced , the german has his chances.

PBEM Campaigng 6-0-0

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 3:53:43 AM

Michael T

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Mr anauso, with respect, if you stick around long enough and play some good Soviet players you will come to realize how mistaken you are.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 7:28:25 AM

Toidi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Mr anauso, with respect, if you stick around long enough and play some good Soviet players you will come to realize how mistaken you are.

I would add, as it is currently, the Axis player must be much better than the Soviet player to put Soviets under serious pressure (expert vs average, average vs inexperienced player with this game etc). Before the changes, when equal players played, Soviets would always win, but games with not equal players (expert vs good or good vs average) were relatively balanced.

The Axis to be successful need to capture a lot of industry in '41 and destroy the Red Army (deplete in '41, continue in '42 and onwards). If the industry is not captured, Red Army will be able to build expensive in ARM/Vehicles (but cheap for manpower) units in '42 and onwards which will make Axis play tough (especially when both ARM and vehicles are available for the Red Army). To capture much of the industry, one needs to advance quicker than historical which is tough when Soviets can defend a hex against tanks (and now they often can).

Destroying Red Army in '41 is not really possible (as generally the units return free of charge). However plenty (at least 3 millions) troops must be destroyed (preferably pocketed) in '41 to drain Soviet resources, so in winter '41 and in '42 Soviet army is a bit limited by manpower. Encirclements are usually only possible due to misjudgment(s) made by the Soviet player and the margin for error is now bigger than it was before. With all the changes, it is true that Axis may be slightly stronger in '42 and onwards, but unless the industry is captured, Soviets can resist almost as well as before, especially that now they can muster the brigades to passable morale of 50 quicker than before (and thus having new 50 morale divisions quicker).

The problem is that all apparently small changes in the game have big impact because the game mechanics reinforces the side which is winning. So if the Axis gets over the tipping point, the snowball effect occurs, and they tend to win big. On the other hand, if Axis does not reach the tipping point, the Soviets quickly become impossible to overcome. Bouncing back from the tipping point as Soviets is often possible in '41 due to Blizzard rules (and generally very large production of equipment), so Axis generally needs to reach it again in '42. Bouncing back from the tipping point as Axis is almost impossible due to limits in manpower and production. Also if Axis does not achieve its goals in '41, achieving them later is very tough (I know about a single case that it happened, but it was only possible because Axis losses in winter '41 were very small, and in '42 Axis suddenly started playing much better than it played in '41).

Reaching the tipping point is obviously dependent on player skills, but small changes in morale affects that much more than one would expect by simply seeing the numbers (50 average morale Soviet army is quite different to 48 average morale Soviet army, and very different to 46 average morale Soviet army).

T.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 8:33:27 AM

mktours

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Michael. i read your aar against Kamil, it is clear that German could achieve overwhelming advantage by railing troops to Romania. and i didn't think why any German player can't do that (i would do it myself), so isn't the game is favor German in that way? the morale change can't match it, it is huge advantage, see the whole south destroyed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Mr anauso, with respect, if you stick around long enough and play some good Soviet players you will come to realize how mistaken you are.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 8:42:19 AM

mktours

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michael. you mean the Russian shouldn't be allowed to do any counter attack even in a territory that favor them, or have overwhelming number advantage? what fun is it if the Russian could do nothing but run away?
in history, Zhukov punched the Germans hard both in Leningrad and Smolensk, with the Germans had to retreat temporarily. only by doing so, he stabilize the situation in Leningrad, which is crucial to defend the city, and earn time for defend Moscow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

It irrelavent anyhow. From what I see the Soviets with inflated CV and Leadership can easily get 3 and 4 to 1 against entire Pz Cp in open terrain.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/11/2013 8:45:14 AM

Michael T

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No, even with the Rumanian sneak attack Russia will win easily under the current rule set.

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