Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: DaveConn

First of all, let me say that I love this game in all its iterations. I have played them all, beginning with Uncommon Valor (although I passed on War Plan Orange). I’m currently involved in a PBEM using DBB-B with stacking limits, and it is the best version so far, IMHO. (This is the latest facet of my fascination with the war in the Pacific during WW II, beginning with the S&T “USN” game for all you REAL old-timers.)

The main thing that continues to bug me is supply: even with DBB, it is too easy to keep everything in supply. Usage is low enough that a there are plenty of ships to haul the required supply (admission: I haven’t tried DBB-C, which I know tries to address this). I am the Allies, it is late spring 1942, and I have plenty of supply pretty much everywhere (except, of course, in China). No need for “Operation Shoestring” here.

Having said all that, I’d be interested in any reactions from those of you who are much more familiar with the inner workings of the game (if you would care to comment). Thanks in advance.

--Dave

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ORIGINAL: Symon

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ORIGINAL: DaveConn

First of all, let me say that I love this game in all its iterations. I have played them all, beginning with Uncommon Valor (although I passed on War Plan Orange). I’m currently involved in a PBEM using DBB-B with stacking limits, and it is the best version so far, IMHO. (This is the latest facet of my fascination with the war in the Pacific during WW II, beginning with the S&T “USN” game for all you REAL old-timers.)

The main thing that continues to bug me is supply: even with DBB, it is too easy to keep everything in supply. Usage is low enough that a there are plenty of ships to haul the required supply (admission: I haven’t tried DBB-C, which I know tries to address this). I am the Allies, it is late spring 1942, and I have plenty of supply pretty much everywhere (except, of course, in China). No need for “Operation Shoestring” here.

Having said all that, I’d be interested in any reactions from those of you who are much more familiar with the inner workings of the game (if you would care to comment). Thanks in advance.

--Dave

Bugs me too. That was the whole point to DBB-C. Campaign games just can't model the supply imperitives. It's a deep and wide campaign and includes a gazillion ships that a little weasel player will use to invade Ney York. Pfffft, nobody worth plying.

I have been making small map, short time, scenarios that obviate that nonsense. If people wish to see what the Pacific War was about, in its incipient form, check it out. For AE grogs.

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I haven't really played for quite some time, but I recall someone, somewhere, someplace and I (may have been WITP) used to start most of the US industry in various stages of damage and set them repairing to eat up supply (was it 1000 per turn, I don't remember). With the US gearing up for war, so to speak, it left much fewer supplies available to ship.

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well, if you decrase the stockpiles, alotments and output, the Allies may run into supply shortages later in the war.

That is exactly the opposite of what happened IRL and what we want for the game - Allied shoestring conditions in the beginning turning into abundance by 1944.

Problem with daily alotments and (Allied) supply production is that the numbers are fixed and factories cannot be increased. Without any Japanese moves, the amount of Allied supplies produced on Dec. 7th 1941 would be the same than produced on VJ Day. With Japanese moves, the Allied supply production will actually drop. But with all the units the Allies receive in the course of the game, the supply demand will increase many times.

So, since the supply alotment/production is fixed, I assume the supply stockpiles, alotments and production on day 1 are much higher than they were IRL in order to compensate for the losses of production facilities in the first part of the war and to have ample reserves for the ever-increasing supply demand later. Of course no player leaves available supplies behind "for later use", esp. when there is an abundance of shipping available.

Possible "fix" is to start with Allied supply production facilities partly damaged and a decrease of the alotments to a point which yields enough supplies to keep the factories repairing and a slight surplus. Of course this too would require a lot of beta testing to get things "right". Several forumites have experimented with this approach and there have been earlier discussions on the forum about this - search for "econ mod" if interested.

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ORIGINAL: spence

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I haven't really played for quite some time, but I recall someone, somewhere, someplace and I (may have been WITP) used to start most of the US industry in various stages of damage and set them repairing to eat up supply (was it 1000 per turn, I don't remember). With the US gearing up for war, so to speak, it left much fewer supplies available to ship.

It was the IJ 25th Army at Singapore that very nearly ran out of ammunition in the course of its assault on that island which was perhaps the most carefully planned and best supplied effort the IJ made during the whole war. It was the IJ 15th Army that launched its 1944 offensive into India predicated on capturing the Allied supplies there. Perhaps the Marines had fish-heads and rice at first but it was the IJ 17th Army who coined the term "Starvation Island" to describe Guadalcanal.

That the Allies suffered from supply shortages at times is not in dispute.

But the conquest of China, solely from a logistics perspective should be completely impossible for the IJ Player. Sorry but horse drawn carts are utterly inadequate to provide even gasoline and ammunition to IJA units more than 100 miles from a railroad or navigable river. Conquering China works in this game.

Japan's Merchant Marine STARTED the war short of hulls by over a million tons. Then things got worse even though its losses were modest over the first 6 months of the war. By mid-1942 Japan had an insuperable logistical problem supplying even two reinforced division equivalents forward of Rabaul (Guadalcanal & New Guinea) while simultaneously supporting/supplying the air units at Rabaul to support them.

I mentioned in some other thread that the motorized support of the Allies should be better than just a liability to the Allied Player. The failure of the Japanese to motorize their logistics organization should be a problem for them. It should be limited in range and units having mostly unmotorized support should suffer rapidly increasing supply forwarding penalties as they move away from railroads/navigable rivers. Allied units lacking motorized support would suffer the same problems(Chinese especially). (Almost seems like it would keep the Chinese in check too since that also is a problem with the simulation value of the game).

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Sure, of course the Japanese side needs tweaking as well. But this does not change the fact that Allied players have "too much" in the first months of the game.

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ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

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ORIGINAL: spence

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I haven't really played for quite some time, but I recall someone, somewhere, someplace and I (may have been WITP) used to start most of the US industry in various stages of damage and set them repairing to eat up supply (was it 1000 per turn, I don't remember). With the US gearing up for war, so to speak, it left much fewer supplies available to ship.

It was the IJ 25th Army at Singapore that very nearly ran out of ammunition in the course of its assault on that island which was perhaps the most carefully planned and best supplied effort the IJ made during the whole war. It was the IJ 15th Army that launched its 1944 offensive into India predicated on capturing the Allied supplies there. Perhaps the Marines had fish-heads and rice at first but it was the IJ 17th Army who coined the term "Starvation Island" to describe Guadalcanal.

That the Allies suffered from supply shortages at times is not in dispute.

But the conquest of China, solely from a logistics perspective should be completely impossible for the IJ Player. Sorry but horse drawn carts are utterly inadequate to provide even gasoline and ammunition to IJA units more than 100 miles from a railroad or navigable river. Conquering China works in this game.

Japan's Merchant Marine STARTED the war short of hulls by over a million tons. Then things got worse even though its losses were modest over the first 6 months of the war. By mid-1942 Japan had an insuperable logistical problem supplying even two reinforced division equivalents forward of Rabaul (Guadalcanal & New Guinea) while simultaneously supporting/supplying the air units at Rabaul to support them.

I mentioned in some other thread that the motorized support of the Allies should be better than just a liability to the Allied Player. The failure of the Japanese to motorize their logistics organization should be a problem for them. It should be limited in range and units having mostly unmotorized support should suffer rapidly increasing supply forwarding penalties as they move away from railroads/navigable rivers. Allied units lacking motorized support would suffer the same problems(Chinese especially). (Almost seems like it would keep the Chinese in check too since that also is a problem with the simulation value of the game).

Spence. Thank you for pointing out that it was the JAPANESE who truly suffered from supply problems. After the first few months, ALLIED supply problems were more a matter of distribution than availability, but the Japs started the war with logistics problems which got nothing but worse in all aspects as the war progressed.

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ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveConn

First of all, let me say that I love this game in all its iterations. I have played them all, beginning with Uncommon Valor (although I passed on War Plan Orange). I’m currently involved in a PBEM using DBB-B with stacking limits, and it is the best version so far, IMHO. (This is the latest facet of my fascination with the war in the Pacific during WW II, beginning with the S&T “USN” game for all you REAL old-timers.)

The main thing that continues to bug me is supply: even with DBB, it is too easy to keep everything in supply. Usage is low enough that a there are plenty of ships to haul the required supply (admission: I haven’t tried DBB-C, which I know tries to address this). I am the Allies, it is late spring 1942, and I have plenty of supply pretty much everywhere (except, of course, in China). No need for “Operation Shoestring” here.

Having said all that, I’d be interested in any reactions from those of you who are much more familiar with the inner workings of the game (if you would care to comment). Thanks in advance.

--Dave

Bugs me too. That was the whole point to DBB-C. Campaign games just can't model the supply imperitives. It's a deep and wide campaign and includes a gazillion ships that a little weasel player will use to invade Ney York. Pfffft, nobody worth plying.

I have been making small map, short time, scenarios that obviate that nonsense. If people wish to see what the Pacific War was about, in its incipient form, check it out. For AE grogs.

I haven't really played for quite some time, but I recall someone, somewhere, someplace and I (may have been WITP) used to start most of the US industry in various stages of damage and set them repairing to eat up supply (was it 1000 per turn, I don't remember). With the US gearing up for war, so to speak, it left much fewer supplies available to ship.

Also, I have heard many times that spoilage is to low. Who can increase the percentage or eliminate the base level that it ceases?

Civilian population should also eat up those goodies. Isn't there someway to jimmy a fix to include that?

Just my thoughts.

Buck

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Logged in as: el cid again

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ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

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ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Sure, of course the Japanese side needs tweaking as well. But this does not change the fact that Allied players have "too much" in the first months of the game.

Just adding some perspective. And, in fact, the Allies have too little supply in the Philippines. MacArthur totally failed to bring his supply into Bataan per Plan Orange, leaving enough sitting around to feed the Japanese for the whole campaign. Yet he still managed to hold out for 5 months. Try getting that result in the game. Yes, there are places where the Allies have too much supply availability in the first couple of months. But in a game where the Japanese are given enough supply to invade India and Australia (both pretty much pipedreams in real life), this discussion on limiting supply seemed to be concentrating on molehills and ignoring the mountains.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again
Buck is correct. At the suggestion of a Forum member who lives in Anchorage,