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RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs Quixote (Japan)

 
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RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/13/2013 8:31:14 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

To disagree is fine. We do it all of the time!

I'm trying to help the Allied players have insight to the Japanese system as a whole, not argue that China should be able to be held. I think with enough commitment in this game it cannot be held. (I believe Cannonfodder has a lot of experience on the Japanese side so sorry this is all happening in your AAR, as it's not really much new info for you, I'm sure). Those who have played Japan through to the end of a campaign will know the cost of each choice better than I will at this point. It's always a decision about the economy, really. How much will it cost?

China is not an easy choice and maybe doing nothing (no big campaigns after the DEI) would be better for the Japanese in the long term. China in the war offered a stiffer test than it does in game for many reasons, but the Japanese did not move troops from Manchuria to take it, did not bring troops back from the PI and Malaya to take it, and did not commit huge air forces to suppressing it's industry, armies and air forces. Why not? Maybe they realized the commitment all of that would take, and it wasn't worth it.

My reason for saying stay in place in China is that you simply cannot calculate how territory, supply, troop experience, leaders and the rest will all combine to produce a result, especially with the disruption involved in river crossings. You also never quite know what is on the other side, what that force is made of and how much lack of supply, fatigue, disruption and the rest take away from it's result.

Cannonfodder will decide based on his knowledge what to do, as will you and I, but the players who have done well have stayed put, taken the blows and made it costly.




What? You and I disagreeing. Naah.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 241
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/14/2013 9:55:16 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Roel,

I read through all your AAR, a very interesting reading indeed. I was really surprised to discover that Quixote has a big chance to get an auto victory in January 43 so I didn't think it was possible against a decent Allied player and you're much more than this IMHO.

So I’m assuming that you are even now the competent and accurate player I learnt to know . Furthermore I have not found any clues of major mistakes on your side (unless playing Allies without SL could be called a major mistakes!). So my question is: don’t you think that the strategy put into effect by Quixote is nearly unstoppable if the Japanese player is a very skilled one (like Quixote surely is)? Do you feel you could have acted differently to prevent this situation?

Two different questions indeed, but closely related.


_____________________________


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Post #: 242
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/14/2013 7:33:55 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Hi,

Well, a lot can still happen. We are not in june yet and the allies are gaining strength. I did not make major mistakes, just a few smaller ones. Quixote is a very good player and he knows how to try for autovictory. He did/is doing a number of things most Japanese players do not.

- Destroying Chinese units
- Building up Chinese bases
- Building up forward bases worth a lot of VPs
- Denying the allied player bases with large VP multipliers
- Ignore Pearl Harbour

I became suspicious of his motives too late for me to try and prevent his rapid advance (the loss of Noumea for example. Had I known about his strategy I would have defended it, leaving less to defend PH).

Some might say the Mersing gambit he pulled of is gamey. It was however allowed within our houserules and his commitment of carriers made it very feasible..

To me our game shows: Pearl Harbour is unimportant. Using the Combined Fleet to sink the shipping fleeing the Philip. and securing Malaya and the DEI is much more important... You've got the carriers in an immediate position to support landings in India and Australia and it forces the allied player to defend everywhere with to little...



_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 243
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/15/2013 9:07:51 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

I became suspicious of his motives too late for me to try and prevent his rapid advance (the loss of Noumea for example. Had I known about his strategy I would have defended it, leaving less to defend PH).





This is an interesting case IMHO. Quixote showed his will to fight only on his own terms, for example declining to fight a CV battle off Suva IIRC. On the other hand he *must* hold a 4:1 ratio in every battle and this is a burden when you choose where and if doing battles. Anyway, I see your point there's still alot of time...

_____________________________


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Post #: 244
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/18/2013 11:53:25 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The more games that are played, the more that is possible. The mods multiply this. The CG2 is a very different animal IMHO than CG1. I don't play this for the balance anyway so I care little about it,I play it because its fun, challenging, and pretty cool as a history buff.

in reply to above.

ps Hang in there Cannon! I know the pain.

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 245
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 7:56:01 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I wonder if they make scenario 3 which boosts the Allies.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 246
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 8:23:15 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		25-may-1942

India

Quixote scouted out the area around Madras. The Australian I Corps was resting at Salem so that secret is no longer a secret. Madras is a bit of a problem for me. For Quixote it is a good place to threaten the tip of India. Would love to destroy it but without air superiority and a way to stop bombardment runs by capital ships it won't be possible... And I don't plan to deploy my carriers to this theatre.

The air war in this area flared up a couple of times. It is mostly fighter vs fighter (short straw for me there mostly as Tojo is now being mass produced) now as I can't bomb Madras and Quixote is afraid to bomb Bangalore (I've now got almost 200 heavy AA in the base, I hope he tries). I've been building up bases around the Indian "front line" so it is possible to redeploy air to where they can cover and support soon advancing troops. Let's see how much Quixote is willing to deploy in India. He must have 150 Aviation support in Madras now so thats stuff he can't deploy elsewhere...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 247
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 8:24:47 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		China

Messed up. I do have around 9000 AV near Chungking so if all else fails (and it will) we will turtle in the city. We now have a Chinese ace flying around with 6 kills made in the Lancer.. Eat that!

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 248
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 8:26:51 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Overal - messed up. Quixote has a very large chance to achieve autovictory but I've decided to not let that dominate my gameplay (as thats not really fun for me).. I'll try to prevent it but not "at all cost".. No crazy invasions that won't work....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 249
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 8:40:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Don´t worry about China. Against anything but the freshest Japanese players the loss is inevitable. But the good news is that losing China isn´t a game breaker. Its problematic but the main problem for you I think is avoiding a mass slaughter of Chinese troops giving him even more VPs.

I think the only thing you can do is what you are doing. Build up bases and try to nibble where you can. Pushing an idiotic invasion in a desperate attempt is just going to hand him more VPs.

I would start looking at "easy" targets with loads of VPs. The immediate ones I would aim for is Fiji and Noumea. Fiji alone is 2250 Japanese VPs. Noumea is 1150 Allied VPs. Do you have any sort of reserve to do something with?

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 250
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 8:41:31 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		How is your industry situation in Chungking?

Are you stockpiling resources in Chungking? Once the Japanese enter the Chungking hex the Resource Centers there will stop producing resources. You need to make sure your LI industry can produce supply as long as possible during the siege. If LI needs i.e 10,000 resources a day, and you have only 9,999 resources on hand, the LI will produce 0 supply on such a day. You need to produce supply on every day.

Do you have any fuel left in Chungking? If so, disable the HI in Chungking because it will compete with LI for the scant resources and your LI and HI will fail to produce supplies because of that.

You may also stockpile supply in Chungking itself.

PS. And develop high VP bases.Canberra, Krasnoyarsk, Tahiti, Auckland, Socotra etc.


< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/19/2013 8:50:52 AM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 251
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 9:05:26 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Chungking




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 252
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 9:14:42 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		If you still have 163 LI centers intact in Chungking, they need 2445 resources per day. Right now you have a resources stockpile that will last for 50 days once the Japs enter the Chungking hex. 163 LI x 30 days translates to 4890 supplies per month. 6 corps at 50% TOE can live on it for a month or three corps at TOE 100%, provided there is no fighting. Maybe you should tailor your garrison to the supply produced? Leave the best corps with best leaders in place, set supply to stockpile, and march the crippled and small corps in the direction of India.Just wondering.

I don't know if you have any Chinese Inf squads in the pool or if the infantry units can still take replacements in Chungking (you have little supply left), but here is a thought:

set your Support squads to stockpile .

Thus, if you set any infantry unit in Chungking to take replacements, they will only take replacements that bring AV
( Chinese inf squads, MMG squads, engineers etc.). You should have enough support in HQs in Chungking by now - you don't need new support squads in infantry units right now. New support units in infantry squads will just eat into your supply stockpile there.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/19/2013 10:47:14 AM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 253
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 10:52:10 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Hi Yaab,

Replacements have been turned of a long time ago. I'm just repairing disabled squads. For as far as I know it is a better idea to have 9000 AV at low (but not 0) supply then to have 2000 AV fully supplied. The 2000 AV will fold after a couple of deliberate attacks as the IJA can bring up to 10.000 AV to the fight (and keep that 10.000 AV supplied)...

The 9000 AV is expected to last longer..

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 254
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 11:01:57 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Time will tell.

Are you marching any Chinese units into India? Once Chungking falls you still should be able to take replacements for surviving Chinese units on the map.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 255
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 12:11:18 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		No, China is isolated. Even if it wasn't isolated that would cost me PPs. PPs I'm spending on US units for now..

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 256
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/19/2013 12:31:24 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Uhm, truly a Gotterdamerung scenario. Hope Chiang Kai-shek has a fortified bunker level 6 in Chungking caves.

PS. One more thing. Do you have any of these yellow restricted Chinese corps in Chunqking? You could at least try to fly tiny detachments to Ledo by transport planes. Once parent units are destroyed in Chungking, the detachments in India will take replacements and rebuild themselves.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/19/2013 4:28:07 PM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 257
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/20/2013 7:57:07 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		29-may-1942

India

Operation Solum:

I Australian corps will babysit the enemy troops in Madras. The closest developed airbase (larger then 2) is Calcutta.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 10/20/2013 7:59:12 PM >

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 258
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/22/2013 2:32:12 AM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Keeping tabs here, but like yourself I have my hands full. What's that US unit moving in central India? Did you transfer any combat units? My thinking, as I am trying to defend in Australia, where is that one US armored division which surely could have been made available in the circumstances? I think I asked before, did you buy any heavies for India? What are you going to do with the P38Es? I have had great success with them quieting down the incessant bombings in places. They work well with the fortresses for a local momentum shift.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 259
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/22/2013 5:33:19 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		I've got one armoured battalion in India, thats the only unit I shifted there. P38s are deployed in Auckland and Norfolk Island. Made one sweep over Koumac so far downing 7 Nicks for no losses. I suspect Quixote has moved Tojo's in now, so I'll have to shift my attention.

A US armoured division would come in handy...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 260
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/25/2013 8:43:57 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Saratoga bites the dust to an attack by I-6.. Excellent positioning by Quixote!

I've asked Quixote to accept my surrender (he is heading for a sure autovictory) and offered him to restart another game (Possibly DBB). Quixote is an excellent player and he really doesn't need scenario 2, at least not against me..

Without any real logistical issues the Japanese suffer in scenario 1 (at least you have to train your navy pilots up a bit, losing them does mean something) and with a lot of additional AV in the early months (additional guards divisions and armour) getting to 1943 would be painful and beating/stopping the IJA air component next to impossible...


_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 261
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 1:24:16 AM   
desicat

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline 		How much do you attribute Quixote's alternative opening attack to his success?

Given his opening gambit is there anything different that you think you could have done to slow his advance?

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 262
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 7:39:55 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		What I could have done:

- agree on a houserules - no mersing gambit on day 1 (...)
- try and intercept the convoy at Mersing on day 1
- defend and buildup Noumea
- fall back to good terrain in China even faster

But overal the strategy is a killer. I think thats why for so many people a Mersing gambit on day 1 is a no no... If you lose Singapore in december (especially in scenario 2) your in deep trouble. The allies do not have the troops to defend what they need to defend that early...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to desicat)
Post #: 263
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 2:41:05 PM   
Rapunzel


Posts: 141
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Do not give up :(. Allies always win the game in the Long run. It just takes a bit more time. And Quixote deserves to see the first Japan autowin.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 264
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 4:08:36 PM   
desicat

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What I could have done:

- agree on a houserules - no mersing gambit on day 1 (...)
- try and intercept the convoy at Mersing on day 1
- defend and buildup Noumea
- fall back to good terrain in China even faster

But overal the strategy is a killer. I think thats why for so many people a Mersing gambit on day 1 is a no no... If you lose Singapore in december (especially in scenario 2) your in deep trouble. The allies do not have the troops to defend what they need to defend that early...


Thank you for the answer. I think that for the Allies China is China, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. With the way his CV's were positioned on day 1 I think trying to intercept him at Mersing may have had the same result for Force Z. He came up with a very tough opening and you just happened to be the first in the cross hairs - thank you for continuing the AAR throughout.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 265
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 4:56:18 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What I could have done:

- agree on a houserules - no mersing gambit on day 1 (...)
- try and intercept the convoy at Mersing on day 1
- defend and buildup Noumea
- fall back to good terrain in China even faster

But overal the strategy is a killer. I think thats why for so many people a Mersing gambit on day 1 is a no no... If you lose Singapore in december (especially in scenario 2) your in deep trouble. The allies do not have the troops to defend what they need to defend that early...


Whenever I get discouraged .. I reread GreyJoy vs. Radier .... well worth reading in this situation ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 266
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 8:04:43 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Still on the fence as we decided to think about the game for a couple of days. You have to realise that Quixote is a very skilled player. I would love to keep playing him but to be honest I could use a restart to have a shot at an interesting match...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 267
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/26/2013 8:13:11 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		If he gets a AV are you two going to continue playing anyway or is that it? If you are going to continue playing despite an AV I strongly encourage you to play on! Not doubting for a second you can turn this around.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 268
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/27/2013 11:30:10 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Quixote has accepted my surrender and the game is now officially over. I'll be starting a new game as the allies (DBB / C with stacking limits if I can find an opponent willing to play it).. Thanks for following

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 269
RE: The old world vs the new: Cannonfodder (Allies) vs ... - 10/27/2013 11:32:06 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Hope you find another opponent and do an AAR again. Good luck!

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 270
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