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Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 2:17:59 PM   
SigUp

 

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In order not to continue to spam mktours AAR with that realism discussion, I have opened up a new thread to discuss the issues:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Saper have made a very good remark earlier in the AAR:
"After clik start button players create other history - difference for each game - that is the best fun!"
unfortunately many people are not see things in this way, I believe they don't like Guderian as well.
Barbarossa is an very bad plan which was made by very poor leaders like Paulus, and did not involve Manstein or Guderian in the making. Yet many people still insisted that the GHC must comply with this plan.
Thanks for the couters you made towards some of the remarks. I am afraid we could not convince them that there are other ways to do a game and these ways are nothing more than providing some new challenge,which could certainly be handle by many.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

open-minded person like you certainly deserve to have more fun,




Lets look at some examples and general conception on these forums and rather typical when it comes to looking at the WWII.

quote:


Barbarossa is an very bad plan which was made by very poor leaders like Paulus, and did not involve Manstein or Guderian in the making


So the asssumption is that and the this is usually the case when it comes to view on the german side of things.
Germans underpreformed and could have done much better.
Never they overpreformed and this could actually have gone worse and they never should have been as succesfull as they were. It isnt a concievble option.
Same applies oppositely to the russian side. What if the russian stopped them long before historical is never the discussion. They could have had others in charge and be more prepared. Instead the instict is they actually overpreformed and if just little more of X would it have taken before the the russians would have surrendered.


Typically said things on the forum or conceptions.

I have np with thing in 41 going much better than historically for the axis side. Its just the players making better plans. Ppl need to play the game and from turn 1 on its up to the players.

Russian run strategies need to be nerfed, Stalin was a fool and in charge. So apparently russian side cant choose their own strategies, but need to be under some degree of limits based on their political leadership.

Hitler in 1941 interfered on 17 seperate occation as far i as know with the operational conduct of the german forces. Most famously in the Supplement to Directive No. 34 concerning the cancellation of the drive towards Moscow to make what evetually becomes the Kiev pocket
Never ever have i heard this raised as a possibilty nor is it apparently some thing that should influence the german side/ability to unhindered choose their own paths of the game, from the same ppl saying that the russian sides should be limited in their ability to choose where and how to defend, directly or indirectly via tying forces down to defend to VPs.

The russian side from 43 is a bulldozer and their offensives never stop, this need to be reined in. This might very well be true. Just as german side in 41 is able to use the same lack of logistical constraints to make it far beyond historical gains at times in 41. Where are the complaint from these ppl that this is just as unhistorical for the german in 41 as for russains in 43 44. Apparently its np as the russians gets their blizzard and again the conception is that germans doing better than historical is the expected thing. The explation the german can be stopped in 41 is often used. Apparently discounting the examples where they arent, and its never that for example as in the case of Pelton defences worth a mention that the russian bulldozer was be stopped.
Not saying that the logistics shouldnt be looked at, they should, but the standart applies to the two sides isnt the same.

Blizzard offensives. They need to be nerfed historiclly the germans didnt lose any formations the same should be true in game. Right again the conception that in this when and i use when not if on purpose the russian side does better than historical this needs to be reined in. The possibilty that the russian actually making it better than historic as in german formation could be lost is shouldnt be a possibilty. Which isnt the same as saying things shouldnt be changed but again the standart isnt the same.

In the few cases where u actually have seen but its spoken of as it happens quite frequently that the russian make it to Berlin in 43(some one point me to the AARs) or in 44. This is unrealistic and a stop need to be put in place. Again Russian side doing better than historical, it needs to be reined in.
We have seen a few number of AARs with axis side Auto Victories. In these cases things have clearly gone alot better for ther axis side in order to achieve that. No issues with that. Again we're back. Germans underpreformed historicly so when they overpreform its as it should be. Where as russian side overpreforms its "profe" the game is unbalanced.

Its clear that the two sides isnt even remotely treated by the same standarts. Ppl inherit bias affects the way the view on discussions of game issues when things go better or worse for the 2 sides. The natural instinct is the germans underpreformed so when they do better its a question of ppl just playing the game and using better plans. Ppl should be allowed to do as they wish. Not that this is a conception that is in any way limited to this forums as said. This means discussions on gaming issues arent equal. The preconceived notions make it so it starts slanted toward one of particular sides.
When objections are made vs german doing better they are "automaticly" countered by, yes but other side has X Y and Z so this is fine. One makes up for the other. Usually followed by a when discussing these on the russian side. We need to limit the discussion to this issue aka u cant look at the whole.

So in short when ever the russian side overpreforms it just shows the game is unbalanced. If they underpreform it is as it should be or to be expected.
Where as when ever the german side overpreforms, this is to be expected. If they underpreformed not that its really an option and again if so its just the sign of the game being unbalanced

It couldnt be much clearer.


These are the "open minded" persons?
Not that ppl doesnt deserve fun nor that the game doesnt have issues for both sides.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Now, first of all, I agree that many people here have the mindset of "if the Germans underperform / the Soviets overperform the game is unbalanced and has to be patched". But I disagree that this is a problem of "open-mindedness". The impetus, leading to people thinking like this is the issue of the Soviets being able to come back from a disastrous (from a historical perspective) 1941, while the Germans are close to a loss if they have a similarly disastrous 1941. This especially considering the monster blizzard (before the patches). Therefore GHC players feel compelled to look for any means that can give them a better position until December 1941. Because afterwards the game is indeed unbalanced towards the Soviet side. If the German player manages "only" the historical frontlines and the historical losses for the Wehrmacht until blizzard, he isn't going to last until May 1945. That starts with the blizzard and continues with the hammering the renewed Red Army will give out beginning in 1943.

But nevertheless the things the top players here can do, abusing the logistical system belongs completely in the realm of fantasy. Being in Vyshny Volochek at the end of turn 4 shouldn't be possible. The Germans historically struggled with their supply lines once they got past the border battles, forcing them to advance in spurts, before waiting for supply accumulation. So, how the heck should it be able to supply a drive to Vyshny Volochek, even with minimal resistance, in early July?

Now, I do realize that patching a little here and there is no solution, so comprehensive changes are needed that have to wait until WITE2. But I am curious to the effect of the logistics setting. Can somebody explain these effects? Because I have always wondered, if people are all agreeing that the logistics are too generous, then why don't they experiment with far lower logistics settings?
Post #: 1
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 4:20:12 PM   
swkuh

 

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That there is controversy over "balance," "historicity," "unusual tactics," etc. perhaps signs that the game is compelling.

Seems that there is some but not much discussion of adjusting game factors to "balance" the play. Or, maybe this is so "old" that its beyond notice of keen players.

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 2
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 4:34:33 PM   
loki100


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good idea to create a thread ... always feel bad when a discussion in an AAR gets out of hand.

I'd like to see what happens when you sit on the logistics as that may well cure a lot of problems (from both sides).

More generally there has always been a problem with East Front games. Crudely, if the German player doesn't over perform in 1941 then they know they will lose. Its a problem in a lot of games where one side has a brief, perhaps illusory, chance to win. How do you keep the whole game interesting for both sides?

I have a problem with the 'if it isn't banned its legal' mindset but can see that to some people reducing this to a game of chess, devoid of any interaction with plausible is what they want to do (& presumably enjoy doing). I remember the old SPI put out a game on Kursk. Almost uniquely for SPI the Soviets weren't invisible interchangeable counters but had as much flavour as the Axis side. Equally, and again I think uniquely (for the time) there was a scenario on the post-battle Soviet offensive. But someone found a flaw in the rules, it didn't say if you failed an overrun you have to retreat back to the hex you started from. The result ... a game of draughts (checkers for American readers) out of what had the potential to be a really gripping game.

My view as to a few recent AARs and gambits is the exploitation of in-game options to the point of no reality. The Rumanian cheese and the ability of those prepared to work on such things to break the logistic model (& I agree its far too permissive on the Soviets post-43 as well). However, to be fair, I have no clue where competent gameplay crosses an imaginary line into exploitation.

_____________________________


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RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 4:55:37 PM   
Ketza


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If you don't give the Axis a chance no one will ever play that side.

What I see is Axis players pushing the limits to give themselves that chance.

One must realize that although it seems bad the first few turns as the Soviets in some of these games the long term aspects of an Axis win are still very remote when you have 2 players of equal skill. One of the reasons I asked to see the casualties in MKtours game is that it is one the most important indicators to me as to actual Axis progress. If your not raking up millions of Soviet casualties its all going to follow the same path.

(in reply to loki100)
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RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 5:57:32 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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I love playing both sides so I'm unbiased. Here is my opinion:

The game is broken on the Soviet side because moral is to high in 41.
The gamey stuff Axis players come up with is nothing but a reaction to the broken moral system on the Soviet side. How do you fight against a wall of Soviet units with high CV and fort level 2 and 3? You don't! Instead you outflank them and for that you need MPs. Therefore, many Axis players use their entire bomber fleet for air supply. It's really the most powerful weapon in the Axis' arsenal. I've used it in my last two games. It's ridiculous!

You can restore a lot of realism to this game by having a house rule that forbids all fuel supply by bombers (transports are ok in my opinion, they have a much shorter range). This would definitely slow down the Axis advance. And some of the totally unrealistic stuff would disappear. For example, in one of my games I have a unit in front of Tambov that is cut off together with it's HQ but has 30 MP. Also, the bombers could be used for what they were designed for: airfield attacks and ground combat.

The problem is really how to fix the broken moral system on the Soviet side. Without that fix it's pointless to have house rules regarding bombers because you end up with a game like smokingdave vs saper222. And who wants to play a game like that?

Maybe the new patch will help?

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 5
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 6:05:21 PM   
heliodorus04


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As an older player, particularly one who advocated for how awful the German side is handicapped by history, the current 'axis cheese' is driven by the many-fold advantages the Soviet side gets, or handicaps it doesn't get.

It is far far easier for the Soviet to maximize his army's effectiveness than it ever would have been for Stalin and STAVKA given doctrines that they committed to, but which the player can easily dispense with in favor of self-preservation for the 1943 summer offensive.

Maybe newer players don't realize it, but for example, while the Soviet side can choose not to create the 1942 rifle corps because they are inefficient, Germany is required to withdraw specific divisions at specific times. Often this results in the best morale divisions of Germany leaving the game. Of course, Germany will also lose several divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad even if no Stalingrad surrender occurs. German players have been forced to exploit and exploit and exploit 1941 because if they don't have a phenomenal 1941, then the Soviet juggernaut will reach Berlin in 1944.

I'm not saying the super-Lvov is good for the game or the community, but there has always been a problem with the community being far too biased in favor of the Soviet side, and not recognizing how Soviet advantages stack in a way that says "FU" to the German player.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 6
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 6:23:36 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

I love playing both sides so I'm unbiased. Here is my opinion:

The game is broken on the Soviet side because moral is to high in 41.
The gamey stuff Axis players come up with is nothing but a reaction to the broken moral system on the Soviet side. How do you fight against a wall of Soviet units with high CV and fort level 2 and 3? You don't! Instead you outflank them and for that you need MPs. Therefore, many Axis players use their entire bomber fleet for air supply. It's really the most powerful weapon in the Axis' arsenal. I've used it in my last two games. It's ridiculous!

You can restore a lot of realism to this game by having a house rule that forbids all fuel supply by bombers (transports are ok in my opinion, they have a much shorter range). This would definitely slow down the Axis advance. And some of the totally unrealistic stuff would disappear. For example, in one of my games I have a unit in front of Tambov that is cut off together with it's HQ but has 30 MP. Also, the bombers could be used for what they were designed for: airfield attacks and ground combat.

The problem is really how to fix the broken moral system on the Soviet side. Without that fix it's pointless to have house rules regarding bombers because you end up with a game like smokingdave vs saper222. And who wants to play a game like that?

Maybe the new patch will help?

With all due respect, that's not it. Even before 1.07 people could manage ridiculous advances. And now we will get a fix for the quick morale gains. But what about the supply stuff?

As for the Stalingrad divisions, hasn't it already been cleared up? It was established that only those divisions are withdrawn that were withdrawn in reality (meaning the reconstituted divisions). You don't lose divisions because they were destroyed, you lose the reconstituted divisions, because they were utilized somewhere else. Of course the withdrawal system for the German side is suboptimal. But on the other hand one will never face the prospect of units getting withdrawn, because the campaign is going too well. Remember, historically the Germans wanted to withdraw / disband a good number of divisions before winter. Only due to the unexpected harsh resistance of the Red Army were they forced to call off these plans. If a German player is standing East of the Volga in 1941, he won't have to deal with losing divisions. Furthermore, there is a reason for the best divisions leaving, as these were thrown around as firebrigades (besides, the strongest of all Großdeutschland always remains). Of course WITW solves this problem better with that East Front box.

The problems I see is, first of all, German advance is too fast due to logistics and suffer too few casualties due to the combat system (and general weakness of Soviet units). This is countered by an artificially bumped up blizzard, that's problematic as well. Then in the Summer 1942 it is harder to advance, due to carpets of forts etc. Finally the same logistics and casualties issue that fueled German advance in 1941 comes back to bite the German side from 1943 onwards. If one intends to fix WITE, one has to adress all issues (not to mention the air system) at the same time - too big to handle, so we have to wait until WITE2.

Well, as broken as PBEM is, against the AI the situation (with the exception of the blizzard) can be salvaged by readjusting the settings as the game goes on. And it becomes quite enjoyable with that.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)
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RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 8:11:25 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

If you don't give the Axis a chance no one will ever play that side.



By that logic no one should be playing Witp AE as no one would wana play the japanease side. AE is prolly the most active forum and possibly like wise in term of AARs of all of the matrix games

quote:


What I see is Axis players pushing the limits to give themselves that chance.


Or are they pushing the limits cuz they can and want to win more than any thing else with out in the case regards to plausibility of how they are winning.
Not that is any thing wrong with wanting to win, but even the most hard core players with the least amount of regards to historicy and plausibity, still complaint about blizzards/russian steamrollers so they indeed want plausibity. Else there wouldnt be a single complaint about the game system as EVERY thing goes. We could start by giving all russian leaders 9 in all stats and units 70 moral. Its a game, not playing history. No one would want what so every one so its profe of as said even the most hardcore of the players want some binding to history. The standarts just arent the same and the bias color the discussion and very apparently few seems to be particular observant about this. When ever and its happening in this thread too there are discussion on the german cheese it gets jusifified internally as too why german cheese is ok.
Why? see below

quote:


One must realize that although it seems bad the first few turns as the Soviets in some of these games the long term aspects of an Axis win are still very remote when you have 2 players of equal skill.


When one have decided that one should have a chance to win and winning is = AV then <insert X reason as the jusitification of the cheese>. Psyc101.

quote:


One of the reasons I asked to see the casualties in MKtours game is that it is one the most important indicators to me as to actual Axis progress. If your not raking up millions of Soviet casualties its all going to follow the same path.


Well if the logic is that only a german AV or similar result can occur if the players arent of equal skill, not that i necesarrily agree or disagree with that, then u would have to estalish that indeed the game ise played by 2 equal players and are it?

Also its deemmed that if u dont get AV u have lost. Well there are a recent AAR where the russian after running had to give up but it was impossible as deemed by the players in question and get to Berlin in time for a "we are any where near Berlin in May 1945 win". Very few players actually seem to play on the mid to end game and therefor never learns or aquires the skill in how to defend succesfully as german. It apparently was possible by one of the few that does to deny the russian side Berlin. That not to say that this is a possibility for all and every case. In this case the german player indeed maximize the system too to get wins, but if no one plays this aprt of the game u cant aquire the skills to make it possible.
Do i agree in the VC as is it to "easy" to get draw as russian sure. The idea should be wheather or not u get to Berlin by may 45 or not, but no or rather very very few play and i applaud them with that in mind. Its a AV and then im justified in my cheese or i lose mentaility. Instead of a mentallity ok i cant make it too AV my goal is to deny the Russian Berlin and very few tries and aquire the skill that possibly could make it so.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
The game is broken on the Soviet side because moral is to high in 41.
The gamey stuff Axis players come up with is nothing but a reaction to the broken moral system on the Soviet side. How do you fight against a wall of Soviet units with high CV and fort level 2 and 3?


I can only agree with Sigup. I know ur at leased u seem new too this game but the moral issue is 3 months old the various tho to different degree of Lvov and useage/abuse of logistic system is 2½ years old. The first AAR with a small Lvov pocket was done 14 days after the release of the game. Funnily enough it was deemed to never to work against humans. Moral has nada to do with the issues in as it excists long before that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
The problem is really how to fix the broken moral system on the Soviet side. Without that fix it's pointless to have house rules regarding bombers because you end up with a game like smokingdave vs saper222. And who wants to play a game like that?


Could there be any other reasons. Have u looked at sappers AARs as german? He is a player that for better or worse seems to use the system in al the way it can be used and he certainly got skills to go along with that. So he wins as german too. Then it might not be supprising he win early as russian too and it isnt necesarrily the full story about balance. Not that it isnt a part of it. Funnily enough again the russian doing better even when done by a top player gets emphasized as a balance issue. How many says we dont wana see games like the ones where he wins as the german side?
Case closed.

Standarts again. Even when the top players win early as russian it gets emphasized as a issue on balance when they same ppl win as german its just business as usual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

As an older player, particularly one who advocated for how awful the German side is handicapped by history, the current 'axis cheese' is driven by the many-fold advantages the Soviet side gets, or handicaps it doesn't get.

It is far far easier for the Soviet to maximize his army's effectiveness than it ever would have been for Stalin and STAVKA given doctrines that they committed to, but which the player can easily dispense with in favor of self-preservation for the 1943 summer offensive.

Maybe newer players don't realize it, but for example, while the Soviet side can choose not to create the 1942 rifle corps because they are inefficient,


Not that we havent been down this road before but it simply isnt the case. Do russian choose what units to buy obviously yes can he within that maximize as in choosing what to buy, yes.

But u say this as its a non constrain on the russian side and as u cant on the german side that its naturally an advantage. It just isnt and i have shown it before but here goes again.
The other option instead of the the AP system would be a historical OOB like the german. Ok what does that mean.
Well I and others have done the math. For example if u buy the historical reinforcements between july 42 and july 43 in my calc u had 160 points to spare for the year. Others got it too 100, but lets given the benefit of the doubt.
That mean u get 160 to every thing else. Including buying replacement for units lost, build forts, changing leaders in the new HQ(that alone is more than 160 points) u get as well as if u have any still left that isnt desirabel. Put in promoted leaders and possibly replace the leader in the old HQ if the AI choose unwisely. Changing units HQs as well as changing HQs to other HQ. Plus every thing else. In teh same periode the german side gets 2500ish point to do the same and that isnt to buy replacement units as they are free on the german side. How much this this is, is very different from game to game but its seen to be in the 800-1000 region in worst cases. best cases its 0 but that was alrdy taken into account in the 160 points scn.
As 160 isnt going to cut in any where remotely to do all these things u are bound to have to buy less units than what u would get if u got a historic OOB. In words u worse off. Problem is ppl see some one having a choice as a necesarrily a better thing instead of know what the alternative is.
43-44 is a bit better but not much.
Is 42 russian corps ineffectient no they just ineffecient to buy in 42 sure, but the alternative is u get the IIRC historic 26 for free and im sure ppl would be very happy to have them. Do ppl buy the IIRC 512 AA batallions by 1944 no, but again with the historical OOB u get them for free. If this line of arguement had any legs as its an advantage u would have to see ppl having more units of what ever is deemed killer types and non have yet to show an AAR where that is true in any siginicant truth. Nor has there EVER been an AAR where the russian side has reach the historical number of units that u would get for free with a historical OOB like on the german side. The only thing u can maximize is what not to buy. Alternative is they get it all for free as on the german side.


quote:


I'm not saying the super-Lvov is good for the game or the community, but there has always been a problem with the community being far too biased in favor of the Soviet side, and not recognizing how Soviet advantages stack in a way that says "FU" to the German player.


Smiles,

Rasmus


< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/16/2013 9:27:27 PM >

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 8
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 8:25:50 PM   
M60A3TTS


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What if the blizzard period concluded at the end of January? Would that be a sufficient enough nerf?

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Post #: 9
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 9:32:37 PM   
RedLancer


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Those who take the time to read Clausewitz will know that he describes warfare as a chameleon which adapts whilst retaining its fundamental elements of violence, friction, uncertainty etc.

A computer war game (in today's world) cannot adapt as an independent entity and therefore repeated playing of the game can exploit issues to advantage thereby avoiding the natural evolution of warfare that exists. WitE was a ground breaking development and I know from my observation of these forums that very skilful individuals have pushed the game engine to the limit in its current iteration even with the patches that have been consistently delivered.

In terms of realism I would concede that the intellectual power of those individuals has exploited issues in the code beyond that intended but having done so the discussion has focused not on their ahistoric actions but rather the inability of the game to prevent such actions. The normal feedback loop of the nature of warfare does not exist in computer code. That doesn't diminish WitE in any respect. It demonstrates the power of the human mind and shows that the next step is needed for no better reason than to challenge the human mind once more. I have no doubt that the successor to WitE will be exploited in its turn when it is published but I'm sure we will enjoy doing it as that's the point after all.

< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 8/16/2013 9:34:54 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 10
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 11:01:39 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Those who take the time to read Clausewitz will know that he describes warfare as a chameleon which adapts whilst retaining its fundamental elements of violence, friction, uncertainty etc.

A computer war game (in today's world) cannot adapt as an independent entity and therefore repeated playing of the game can exploit issues to advantage thereby avoiding the natural evolution of warfare that exists. WitE was a ground breaking development and I know from my observation of these forums that very skilful individuals have pushed the game engine to the limit in its current iteration even with the patches that have been consistently delivered.

In terms of realism I would concede that the intellectual power of those individuals has exploited issues in the code beyond that intended but having done so the discussion has focused not on their ahistoric actions but rather the inability of the game to prevent such actions. The normal feedback loop of the nature of warfare does not exist in computer code. That doesn't diminish WitE in any respect. It demonstrates the power of the human mind and shows that the next step is needed for no better reason than to challenge the human mind once more. I have no doubt that the successor to WitE will be exploited in its turn when it is published but I'm sure we will enjoy doing it as that's the point after all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_2Npp-euLU


(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 11
RE: Realism discussion - 8/16/2013 11:20:24 PM   
2ndACR


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Ah but the difference in WITP is that Japan is not curtailed by history. They have control over production, we had some of the same arguments over there with the "history" crowd. The same applies here to a great degree, History goes out the window the moment I press end turn on turn 1. I never really understood why GG changed the way every single on of his games prior to this, the "losing" side has most of the control over what happens. Yet in WITE, he gave it to the Russians.

I have argued for AP points to be able to be spent to "winterize" divs if they are a certain distance from the front lines and not move or engaged (historically the Germans did have 50 div sets of winter gear) but they chose fuel and ammo over all else, why curse the German side to history

Not to restrict Germany to historical withdraws, make them more like WITP "you must withdraw X number of Div by this date" but let the German commander decide who goes and such

Allow the German commander to "delegate" to a greater degree who gets the best toys and such (got sick of seeing the unit about to withdraw suck up all my best tanks)

Remove the forced TOE downgrades the German is faced with or allow the German to control who does what, I might have 1/2 my army at 1945 TOE in 1945 but have 1 army group at 1941/42 TOE and if I got the manpower and resources then allow him/us to do so.

I for one want a semi historical game..........historical range weapons, same stats etc, but don't curse either side with any historical limitations.......example, the 16th Panzer left the East front on this date due to losses incurred during some battle that never happens in our game. In 1944 the TOE went to this historically due to losses incurred across the front in real life yet never happen in the game. This was why I actually removed the game from my hard drive (the first and only 2by3 game to ever leave her). I still have UV loaded up on my hard drive. I do believe I own ever 2by3 game ever made, but this one lost my interest quicker than any other due to the huge limitations heaped on the German side. All the while the Russian has every advantage and then some.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 12
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 12:27:15 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Ah but the difference in WITP is that Japan is not curtailed by history. They have control over production, we had some of the same arguments over there with the "history" crowd. The same applies here to a great degree, History goes out the window the moment I press end turn on turn 1. I never really understood why GG changed the way every single on of his games prior to this, the "losing" side has most of the control over what happens. Yet in WITE, he gave it to the Russians.


Ok, without having had time to follow any of the discussion above, I think the WitP crowd is much different in many ways. And not a good comparison. Most of the people there are most knowledgeable on the many aspects, and just as much eager to uphold a sense of historical sensibility. Without any names, much of what we have seen people here squeeze out of the game engine wouldn't have earned respects over there.

WitP also went a very different development route instead. Short turns, the possibility to react day after day for example. WitE is designed to remain trackable despite its scale. I guess playing Barbarossa with as much micromanagement and possibilities as with AE, it would be always 4h plus per turn.

One major difference with AE is that most AARs there intentionally play alternative scenarios, in which Japanese capabilities as the underdog are upscaled. They'll still loose in real terms in the vast majority of the AARs, nonetheless, but VP wise the get close to a draw and fun wise and boldness wise they can truly impress with their feats.
2nd ACR, just few people play scenario 1, the historical one. The Japanese economy there is strongly restrained as I can tell you from own experience, and a much bigger challenge than the alternative scenarios. Rather too unbalanced for PBEM you can probably conclude from the AAR choices. But people take the alternative benefits into account when discussing historical plausibilty in the AARs, which is perfect.

Unfortunately WitE does not have such alternative scenarios with beefed up Axis properties, but instead it is a young title with potential to evolve into something that could model historically based situations much better. As it stand does allow some unhistorical things for both sides even with historical scenario setups. And it uses strange, very biased rule sets like the blizzard one, while on the other hand basic historical events like retaining Leningrad isolated by supplied against Axis, or keeping pockets alive for a few more turns, doesn't work yet.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 13
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 1:41:00 AM   
2ndACR


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Trust me I know......and the changes I argued for way back at release will never happen. I only got re-involved when a friend pointed me to the new tactic of turn 4 Kiev captured, I did not believe him. Then I saw all the "totally not historically possible" arguments.

But I usually played even the Scenario 1 and still the folks screamed about how the IJN could thrive and beat up the allies in it. Was just saying I have fought those arguments before, for pure history I will read a book or pop in a DVD, for a game, I shoot Hitler, Tojo or Stalin on turn 1. History is no more.

But I do wish I could micro WITE a lot more. My WITP (I have AE but the Coy stuff hurt my head too much)Japan 1st turn used to take 24+ hours non stop to complete until I had the opening down pat and then shaved her to 8 hours with minor deviations for different games and such. So long turns does not scare me in the least, would love to have to choose who gets toilet paper and who gets fuel down a single rail line.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 14
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 6:40:14 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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From: Nashville TN
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quote:

As for the Stalingrad divisions, hasn't it already been cleared up? It was established that only those divisions are withdrawn that were withdrawn in reality (meaning the reconstituted divisions). You don't lose divisions because they were destroyed, you lose the reconstituted divisions, because they were utilized somewhere else.


This is what they try to dismiss the criticism by saying ('they'... maybe the people who quit reading my posts over the issue back in the day...).
There is a problem with that explanation: The German replacement/manpower system already takes into account how many 'generic replacement' Germans are sent to other theaters. So for example when, in 1942, the 20% of generic manpower that goes to other theaters is theoretically going into any fresh division mustered out of the theater considered in WitE.

The Stalingrad divisions are removed, while the generic replacements represented by the reconstituted/recruited(/possibly renumbered) divisions already account for that. Germany nevertheless sees a counter, its contents, and its precious, precious experience (assuming it's high) disappear from the East.

It's a point I'll leave at that, because I really rubbed some people raw more than a year ago belaboring the point; it's something people dismiss out of hand, not recognizing the simple point that for Germany, many times you're just screwed, and the Soviet bias doesn't even admit it the problem exists, as in morale.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 8/17/2013 6:42:23 AM >


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 15
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 6:46:41 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Trust me I know......and the changes I argued for way back at release will never happen. I only got re-involved when a friend pointed me to the new tactic of turn 4 Kiev captured, I did not believe him. Then I saw all the "totally not historically possible" arguments.

But I usually played even the Scenario 1 and still the folks screamed about how the IJN could thrive and beat up the allies in it. Was just saying I have fought those arguments before, for pure history I will read a book or pop in a DVD, for a game, I shoot Hitler, Tojo or Stalin on turn 1. History is no more.

But I do wish I could micro WITE a lot more. My WITP (I have AE but the Coy stuff hurt my head too much)Japan 1st turn used to take 24+ hours non stop to complete until I had the opening down pat and then shaved her to 8 hours with minor deviations for different games and such. So long turns does not scare me in the least, would love to have to choose who gets toilet paper and who gets fuel down a single rail line.

I have NEVER understood why anyone plays the logistics simulator that is WitP...

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 16
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 7:06:13 AM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Not to restrict Germany to historical withdraws, make them more like WITP "you must withdraw X number of Div by this date" but let the German commander decide who goes and such

Allow the German commander to "delegate" to a greater degree who gets the best toys and such (got sick of seeing the unit about to withdraw suck up all my best tanks)


The need for such a change has been recognized as seen in WITW. As for WITE, such a change would be simply too big. It was a suboptimal decision by the staff to stick to historical withdrawal dates, but on the other hand, one has to style the human controlled withdrawal in such a way, that the strongest divisions are indeed removed, as the Germans did shift those around (with the exception of Großdeutschland), and not the weakened and battered divisions. Furthermore, there are instances where the German side actually benefits. For example the SS Panzerkorps was not scheduled to be transferred East in Spring 1944. They only got rerouted to the East due to the German catastrophes at Kovel and Kamenez-Podolski. Of course these instances don't balance out the losses one takes, but it should be noted for a fair perspective. All in all, I can understand the frustration with the units getting removed, but if you leave it all up to the human, you need an entire readjustment. For example concerning the removal of the SS units for reorganization purposes in the Summer of 1942. A human player would never do that, so you would give him a significant advantage of history.

Furthermore, the German side benefits of never having to deal with fuel shortage. Your fuel pool just rises continually. You can deploy your units whenever you want, whereever you want. The player is not faced with adjusting the positioning of the mechanized units to where the fuel generation happens. Hitler's decision to send 6th Panzer Army to Hungary in Spring 1945 instead of the Oder was not that foolish, as for example Guderian has made it out to be. Hungary was the only place where these units could have maintained full mobility to to the fuel factories there. Moving them to the Oder, and they would be sitting out there with minimal mobility. In WITE you never have to deal with that. Of course, that is, if the game gets there. And here I agree, from 1942/43 onwards the game is favouring the Soviet side (as the attacking side). But I don't think the bias is so strong as some make it out to be. For example, sure the Soviet has it good in terms of army customization. But as Soviet side players can tell you, you are severely limited in this regard by AP shortages. That's also why such strategies as Pelton's "AP crunch" are possible. If you factor in the APs needed for everything, the Soviet freedom, compared to history, gets massively curtailed. Last but not least, German players have to realize, some of the issues Soviet players are complaining about like logisitcs or offensive focus of the game, work in both ways. Sure the German drives get hampered in 1941 (like they should), but on the other hand Soviet drives from 1943 onwards have to deal with the same, and get slowed down similarly (and before somebody accuses me of being Soviet-centric, I am primarily an Axis player, I just have a hard time dealing with all those counters that are on my board as the Soviets
).

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 17
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 9:15:29 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I have NEVER understood why anyone plays the logistics simulator that is WitP...


For one, because it is fun. The air war component alone, where you can manage your squadrons, try to get them to line up for an attack or sweep, and perhaps pick your favored pilots and follow them going thru the war.

Logistics is really big in the Pacific, but even in vanillia scenario 1 the Japanese player can outdo history during the first 12 or so months with hindsight benefits as 2nd ACR pointed out. But not that much. There are mods that constrain logistics a little further, but even with stock you quickly learn a few things about it, e.g. why the Japanese never did invade Hawaii, or try to grap the whole Indian subcontinent, or Australia (alas, in the alternative scenarios where Japanese receive extra divisions, ships, fuel and supply, this comes somewhat close to being doable, though only with truly big surprise or major opponent errors; else, once the Allied player achieves CV balance, the Japanese ground and air forces are slowly but acceleratingly pushed back -- with a pace limited largely, but guess, logistics).

Sure I somewhat knew that logistics was important before AE, professionals pronounce it often enough, but I quickly learned what the word "important" actually meant if you wish so. Without this strong logistics component, AE would never have come close enough to capture the war so well and gain such a fan base of enormously knowledgeable players over there: people with background for air, sub, surface naval, merchant or army lives. Pretty much all of them share the common goal to make and play the game in historically plausible fashion, and there is now an established houserule set that bans what people over the years have identified as weaknesses of the engine, such as excessive night bombing (the hit rate of bombers on night raids is surprisingly good), usage of non-designated/trained 4EB squadrons for low level naval attacks (the number of bombs makes them quite effective, though the allies did only used a few squadrons) etc etc.

I imagine the flying fuel cans spotted here would be quickly on that list as well as the Lvov opening (at the least the bigger ones) in face that the opponent wouldn't have a free turn for countering it. The logistics setting for both sides would probably be reduced for the whole war to address the overall high pace. The next consensus would probably be about the artificially inflated blizzard conditions (for those here disagreeing with these rules, perhaps adjusting morale to 70 for the soviets in December, 80 for January, 90 for February would do? That's what I do against AI, then it only gets aggressive in December if it wasn't badly manhandled in first place).

I do not need to speculate that logistics played a major role in the Barbrossa setup for the Germans, plus the rather surprisingly fought Yogus and Greece campaigns that threw the time table off, and caused the somewhat strange setup of the AGS units. Perhaps there is a reason AGS wasn't set up with more armor that would have hooked back to AGC after reaching Kiev, and perhaps this reason is in the logistics section. Perhaps the same holds true for many things this game has brought forward, but fortunately the devs have constraint this things one by one. Right now I think it is pretty well balanced, and pretty well in the middle ground (except for that blizzard period). Ok, in my opinion it would be more balanced if the Barbarossa section would allow for more German drives to be stopped a bit earlier, at Pskov, Smolensk or so, and if something like the Leningrad isolation or the Demyansk pocket could be repeated, but nevertheless the whole game is way better now than it ever was.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 18
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 9:44:49 AM   
Walloc

 

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From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


quote:

As for the Stalingrad divisions, hasn't it already been cleared up? It was established that only those divisions are withdrawn that were withdrawn in reality (meaning the reconstituted divisions). You don't lose divisions because they were destroyed, you lose the reconstituted divisions, because they were utilized somewhere else.


This is what they try to dismiss the criticism by saying ('they'... maybe the people who quit reading my posts over the issue back in the day...).
There is a problem with that explanation: The German replacement/manpower system already takes into account how many 'generic replacement' Germans are sent to other theaters. So for example when, in 1942, the 20% of generic manpower that goes to other theaters is theoretically going into any fresh division mustered out of the theater considered in WitE.

The Stalingrad divisions are removed, while the generic replacements represented by the reconstituted/recruited(/possibly renumbered) divisions already account for that. Germany nevertheless sees a counter, its contents, and its precious, precious experience (assuming it's high) disappear from the East.



So lets say for one momennt this is true and that this in effect makes germany lose some Manpower. From turn one until 1st july 1942. The Manpower that germany alone gets, not the axis side get, is aroundly 1.000.000 man more than historic. Its seen having, with the blizzard and its effects, a 3.5-3.7m man german army in game at the start of july 1942 Even in games and i participated in one where 55 axis div, around 40 of them german, was captured during the blizzard ans still the OOB numbers didnt reach near historicl levels. There historic one was 2.7-2.8m'ish.
Is giving the german 1m man from fantasy land in a historic context also tying the hands of german side?
How is this an russian, biased advantage?

The 1 mio man extra far excedes the possible manpower lost if we assume ur above argument is true. Does this in merit any consdiration or is the mind made up that things are biased no matter what they in fact are?


quote:


It's a point I'll leave at that, because I really rubbed some people raw more than a year ago belaboring the point; it's something people dismiss out of hand, not recognizing the simple point that for Germany, many times you're just screwed, and the Soviet bias doesn't even admit it the problem exists, as in morale.


U sure u dont got the facts the wrong way around?
Try read the moral thread. There was lots of ppl making comments i dont think i saw any disagreeing or not supporting a change as to what it was made in 1.07.06. How do that compute to teh "fact" that ppl wont admite to any moral issue?`

For example if some one takes up the issue of german exceding the historic advanace rates at 2-3-4 multipled of the historic, the counter is:

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I'm not saying the super-Lvov is good for the game or the community, but there has always been a problem with the community being far too biased in favor of the Soviet side, and not recognizing how Soviet advantages stack in a way that says "FU" to the German player.


So when ever any thing related to possible german advantages is trying to be raised, this happens aka u cant even start to discuss it as the justification why it isnt a problem and never can is alrdy pre made.

Case in point being stated in my OP.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/17/2013 9:48:42 AM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 19
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 10:21:23 AM   
SigUp

 

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Yes, about that manpower. I was also wondering how the heck my Wehrmacht is 3.7 million men strong, despite losing 800.000 men in 1941. Granted, my blizzard losses were somewhat lower due to lack of AI aggressiveness, but still, it's nearly 1 million men more than historically in 1942. But I take no offence to it, as the AI is also running with an army that's 1 million men stronger (due to its ability to keep a certain division number under arms no matter how many you destroy) and with loads of corps.
quote:


ORIGINAL: janh

I imagine the flying fuel cans spotted here would be quickly on that list as well as the Lvov opening (at the least the bigger ones) in face that the opponent wouldn't have a free turn for countering it. The logistics setting for both sides would probably be reduced for the whole war to address the overall high pace. The next consensus would probably be about the artificially inflated blizzard conditions (for those here disagreeing with these rules, perhaps adjusting morale to 70 for the soviets in December, 80 for January, 90 for February would do? That's what I do against AI, then it only gets aggressive in December if it wasn't badly manhandled in first place).

That's the great thing with play against the AI, you can adjust the settings to get historically plausible balance. Though I am not quite happy with the blizzard. Because below 110 the AI lacks aggressiveness, but if you set it to 110, the blizzard offensive is way overpowered. In my game I set it at 60 in December, then corrected it to 80. But the AI just refused to conduct any kind of major offensive in the Moscow sector, despite having so many units, that it filled 5 hex rows. Curiously, however, it attacked ferociously from Stary Oskol to Izyum, and successfully pushed me back, but lacked the units to inflict serious damage. The blizzard itself is indeed too powerful. Aside from the morale loss, that's probably 4 morale points too harsh, the combination of lower German CV, higher Soviet CV and the plus 1 of the Soviet attack doctrine is too much.

Now, as for the reduction of German advances due to logistics, I liked the pace of my advance in my game against the AI with logistics at 60 and avoidance of things like bomber fuel cans and chaining. After the first week of July, my advance was only possible in spurts. Like 2 turns advance, followed by 1 turn of rest (sometimes even longer rest, if I wanted to conduct a major advance). One possible complaint by German players I see is the effect of running and blizzard. Some Soviet players perhaps could come up with a tactic to retreat just so much, that German logistics can't supply a major encirclement, thus limiting Soviet losses. Then come December, use the bigger Red Army to hit the Germans hard. So in WITE2, the Soviet player needs to get an incentive to stay forward and defend. Either through the VP system, or perhaps by tying parts of the blizzard penalties to the strength of the Wehrmacht. So, if the German army remains above a certain strength (for example rifle squads), a significant chunk of the blizzard penalties won't kick in (or bonus for Soviets), leading to a very minor blizzard offensive. This would pose an interesting dilemma for the Soviet player. Does he retreat, keep his army intact, and then struggle with the blizzard offensive, or does he keep defending forward, but risk a weak army going into the blizzard? Of course, such an idea is not without problems, like the balancing of where exactly the threshould should be. And, naturally, the combat system. In the current system, the German losses are way too low, unless the Soviet morale is so high, so that they won't rout. But still, I think it is an idea worth discussing.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 20
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 11:22:02 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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Are you sure you are comparing Wehrmacht numbers not just the Ostheer ?

at the start of the game Lw is around 450,000 men with all the airbases , aircomands, aaa regiments and battalions .

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 21
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 11:48:20 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Was just saying I have fought those arguments before, for pure history I will read a book or pop in a DVD, for a game, I shoot Hitler, Tojo or Stalin on turn 1. History is no more.



quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

The German is crushed by strict lowering of morale, reduced fixed TOE down grades and the Russians get to custom build their army from the ground up basically.



History is out the window when u start. So the russian side should be able to build inf, tank corps, mech and cav corps right of the bat. The russians shouldnt go through their OOB down grades and if wanted too should stay in their 17k man division instead of downgrading to the 11k man division losing 40% CV, right?

Just like teh german teh russian side is bound to downgrades and no more controll over them than the german side. They like germans can have tousins of tank in pool they cant use cuz they cant fit in OOB or making more tank formation isnt possible or having heavy regiement wont upgrade to IS from KV tanks. should the russian side if teh german side is allowed to controll their OOB like wise be able to controll theirs? 44 Mech OOBs in 42?


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
So personally, I don't cry foul about his play, and never will. The day the Russian player's forgo custom building their armies and stick with exactly what they get in the arrival screen except for auto upgrades, I might actually load this back up.



As i have pointed out numerous time if the russian side got historical OOBs they would have many more units than the are currently are able to be build. There maybe minor variation but how can having less be an advantage?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Never played as the Russians so have no clue what their historical unit arrivals look like.


And there in is the truth. Never having played the russian side u have no idea what their capabilties or lack there of are.



quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
I for one want a semi historical game..........historical range weapons, same stats etc, but don't curse either side with any historical limitations.......example, the 16th Panzer left the East front on this date due to losses incurred during some battle that never happens in our game. In 1944 the TOE went to this historically due to losses incurred across the front in real life yet never happen in the game. This was why I actually removed the game from my hard drive



quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
But I have seen the massive cavalry corp build's for use in Blizzard that can gut the German if he aint careful.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Way back when, I saw AAR's that had the Russian at Polish borders in 1943.


So u decided up on seeing one game with that usage of cav corp was not some thing you like to see to the degree of an outrage that made u uninstalled the game.
How does that fit in with from turn one history is out the door and player can/should be able to do as they see fit.
Do u get similar outraged when the german player takes Kiev in turn 2?

The history out the door but its far from only by u used as a strawman argument that can be used when it fits in ur line of thot.
Its all a question of selected outrage when russian do better aka is at the door of Polen in 43. u dont use the word unhistorical but certainty its clearly unwanted to the degree u uninstall the game. U do in fact want history or ther couldnt be any issue with the russian using cav corps and being at the polish border in 43 nor would it be a problem tha the german shall be carefull not to be gutted by the same. If history indeed had been out the window from turn one the russian player should be able to do that with out any objections. The game shouldnt be the limit.


Case in point being my original OP. Ppl dont treat the 2 sides the same nor do they infact want history out the window from turn 1. They just want what fits their vision of history. This all makes it impossible to have any thing of discussion on the subject of game balance as any degree of question or raising issue with the german side of advantages is summarily dismissed.

Com on ppl even in the same thread where the OP was about the 2 sides are treated differntly its happening time after time, wake up and smell ur own roses,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/17/2013 4:59:51 PM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 22
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 11:49:46 AM   
SigUp

 

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Yeah, my bad, forgot about that one. But still, if you deduct air bases, Luftwaffe HQs and Luftwaffe AA units, the average game is still like 500.000 men over. As a rough reference point, take the 1942 scenario. Germany starts with around 2.9 million men, with your average infantry division strength north of Voronezh at around 8.500 to 9.000 men.

EDIT: The Cavalry corps penetration is problematic and leads to unrealistic results. Especially combined with ZOC locks. Smokindave lost 20 divisions due to this. To quote Flavius
quote:


So far as the blizzard goes, it seems Sapper has perfected some kind of crazy combination of zoc locking and hasty attacks...more spam, in other words. Reign in the logistics, tone down the morale hit, and tame big red and much of this ought to go away. The blizzard shouldn't be deciding games. It's too easy to leverage it right now, and I won't pretend otherwise. Despite MT's superb recent winter defense in his AAR.



< Message edited by SigUp -- 8/17/2013 11:54:30 AM >

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 23
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 11:55:21 AM   
Walloc

 

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From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Are you sure you are comparing Wehrmacht numbers not just the Ostheer ?

at the start of the game Lw is around 450,000 men with all the airbases , aircomands, aaa regiments and battalions .


Yes using OKW numbers that are counting all men in any branches on the eastern front. Including ost batttalins and so on. Not only that, german uses several different kinda of numbers, which that can confuse matters. The highest number includes ppl that arent actually at their units at present, but that possible is just allocated to that unit. Those are the numbers used. So if u instead use the numbers of actual men present then the number actually less. For comparison sake its the same types of numbers that isused in order to avoid misrepresentation and keep the comparison the same. The only that isnt accounted for is the flak units in teh german cities. shouldnt should be counted but in game they dont represend that many men. On teh other hand the OKW figurs also count in kriegsmarine personel and since naval base units arent covered in game they are lacking in in game numbers. This is ofc like the flak issue very minor figurs overall.
At the start of the game there are 24 Flak units in german cities not all of those wouldnt have counted. Each at 4k men so for a max of 100k men.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/17/2013 12:02:13 PM >

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 24
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 12:00:01 PM   
Gabriel B.

 

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In my first game if a german division was left with 8500 in any sector it was considered a good division ,
stand fast and all that , so skill probably plays a major role .

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 25
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 12:10:55 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Are you sure you are comparing Wehrmacht numbers not just the Ostheer ?

at the start of the game Lw is around 450,000 men with all the airbases , aircomands, aaa regiments and battalions .


Yes using OKW numbers that are counting all men in any branches on the eastern front. Including ost batttalins and so on. Not only that, german uses several different kinda of numbers, which that can confuse matters. The highest number includes ppl that arent actually at their units at present, but that possible is just allocated to that unit. Those are the numbers used. So if u instead use the numbers of actual men present then the number actually less. For comparison sake its the same types of numbers that isused in order to avoid misrepresentation and keep the comparison the same. The only that isnt accounted for is the flak units in teh german cities. shouldnt shoudl be counted but in game they dont represend that mnay men. On teh otehr hand the OKW figurs also Count in kriegsmarine personel and since naval units Arent covered in game they are lacking in in game numbers. This is ofc like the flak issue very minor figurs overall.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

German strength reports are confusing. You have something like "Verpflegungsstärke" (for supply purposes), "Ist-Stärke" (amount of troops present), or "Gefechtsstärke" (strength of the fighting units). The difference can be quite big. For example, for "old-style" Infantry Divisions in the field (pre-1943 reorganisation) the "Verpflegungsstärke" was 14.604 men. "Ist-Stärke" numbered 10.153 and "Gefechtsstärke" only 4.493 (that's also why it is misleading to say a Soviet Rifle Division possessed fewer men than a German Infantry Division, if you compare the actual fighting strength they are about similar and taking infantry only a Soviet RD actually had more men in its TOE). Taken for the entire Ostheer, the "Gefechtsstärke" was only about 50%. For example on 1st October 1943 the Ostheer (without SS and LW Felddivisions) possessed 2.564.000 men. The "Gefechtsstärke" amounted to only 47% with 1.214.000 men. For WITE purposes I assume a utilisation of "Ist-Stärke" is appropriate.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 26
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 12:26:29 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Are you sure you are comparing Wehrmacht numbers not just the Ostheer ?

at the start of the game Lw is around 450,000 men with all the airbases , aircomands, aaa regiments and battalions .


Btw u can load up the 1942 scn check the numbers there as they naturally includes airbases and so on in both the 1942 scn and in the 1941. Actually its proberbly the best case as u making sure that way that numbers are treated are done in a simmilar way. The number in the 1942 scn OOB for the germans is 2.97m vs between 3.3m to 3.7m when playing a scn through a 1941 scn. Again that includes the 100k men from flak but not kriegsmarine personel. Deduction 100k from the 2.97 and u pretty close to the 2.7-2.8m.

Gets even funnier when u start to deduct the loss from OKW figurs. Using OKW numbers of losses and then do the same in game. If u lose lets 800k men in game then the OOB should be X and so on. The typcical number u get out ahead is between 700k to 1m depeding on severity of blizzard losses in game.

I would just state i dont belive u can or should remote that 1 mio man as it would totally unbalance the game as is now. Just pointing there are a number of cases that is clearly fantasy land on the german side and its never comes up when pointing out decrepiencis on the german side. Its always X lacking, russian can do Z Y and X. Never is it, Ok but i also got this that i didnt. It might also influnce the arguement.

Case in point being my OP.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/17/2013 12:46:35 PM >

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 27
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 1:00:11 PM   
Jimbo123

 

Posts: 247
Joined: 10/11/2011
Status: offline
I have probably 20 games under my belt all as the GHC so you are aware of my bias. I have played most games against forum playes who are quite good. I have won 3 times all against new SHC players and once when I decided to finally chain. (nerfed) I am not able to use flying gas cans as it crosses a personal line for me. This is in no way intended to say it's wrong to do so. It's maybe "my" realism line. I believe many German players know starting the game we will lose. The journey is what is broken. Unless the German can inflict enough damage both on present and future manpower as well as arms then they don't get out of 43. I read the arguments by those who support the SHC and I guess my question is don't you want a better game? The I have to win crowd exists on both sides of the front line. I do know that many us of play games for the sheer joy of the mental effort. My ego for one is not on the line win or lose so I don't care if I win. I just want a great game! That doesn't mean I don't play hard too.

Despite the Lvov opening the South is what is broken for me. How can you make enough headway in the South when all the SHC needs to do is to outrun GHC supply and perserve their army only to send most of it north of the marshes. The result is a brick wall in 42 and the early 43 meat grinder which too quickly destroyes German inf, front breaks game over. Shouldn't desperation "historically" begin after the 44 summer offensive. Maybe we would stick around longer with some hope which by the way was what the Germans did historically even after losing the whole 6th army in 42!!

Anyway, love the game and will probably keep sticking my face in the grinder until WitEII.

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 28
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 1:26:52 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimbo123

Despite the Lvov opening the South is what is broken for me. How can you make enough headway in the South when all the SHC needs to do is to outrun GHC supply and perserve their army only to send most of it north of the marshes. The result is a brick wall in 42 and the early 43 meat grinder which too quickly destroyes German inf, front breaks game over. Shouldn't desperation "historically" begin after the 44 summer offensive. Maybe we would stick around longer with some hope which by the way was what the Germans did historically even after losing the whole 6th army in 42!!

Anyway, love the game and will probably keep sticking my face in the grinder until WitEII.


I would to say that depence on how u view it. I think the mood both among general and soldiers in better parts of AGS was in late 1942 amd early 1943 as there was next to no front lines after Stalingrad in part of AGSs area and the russian advanced from Stalingrad to just outside Z town in some months was pretty close to desperation. non the less the russians overextedned them self and got beat badly.
Again the retreat in ukraine after Kursk became pretty desperate and several pockets was only narrowly avoided or broken and I think the mood was pretty deseperate at times too there.
I dont think that u necesarrily can say that "historic" it only became desperate in 1944. ofc this depence to a certain extend on what u mean by desperate.

That doesnt mean i think that u should necesarrily see the same happening just as that. Just pointing that great advances / retreats historicly occured before 1944 start alrdy starting in late 1942 and certainty when u look at teh description of this by the general involved its clear that not in all cases did they have things under control at leased for a periode.

AS to replicating this there are where u have seen russian overxtending them self or become complacent where there have been setbacks and even in 1 case a complete turn around. Do it happen often, no but it happens. Is it more likely that the player doesnt make the mistake of overextending, sure. Again if thta part is up to the player and They arent forces to make the same mistakes. Non one forcing the germans to do Stalingrad i only would say the same should apply to the russian side.

Yes i do belive most ppl want a better game so lets have that discussion, but if u going to discuss the logistics that makes the russian steamroller happen which is thesame that makes german advances that is far beyound historic both in time and place happen. If the discussion about the latter is summarily dismissed cuz of blizzard the and steamroller issues how can u even start to begin addressing issues when half the issues gets dismissed. If u rein in the steamroller effects by reining in logistics it naturally will and IMO should have an effect on the 41 advances. If touching those cant even be discussed becasue X Y and Z the discussion stops before its even begun.

Only asking for that and some self awareness of that,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/17/2013 1:48:01 PM >

(in reply to Jimbo123)
Post #: 29
RE: Realism discussion - 8/17/2013 1:29:27 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
"There is a problem with that explanation: The German replacement/manpower system already takes into account how many 'generic replacement' Germans are sent to other theaters. So for example when, in 1942, the 20% of generic manpower that goes to other theaters is theoretically going into any fresh division mustered out of the theater considered in WitE.

The Stalingrad divisions are removed, while the generic replacements represented by the reconstituted/recruited(/possibly renumbered) divisions already account for that. Germany nevertheless sees a counter, its contents, and its precious, precious experience (assuming it's high) disappear from the East."

The problem is the war was multifront for the Axis and unidimensional for the Soviets. Unless the entire Theater of Operations is depicted, with every country and historical pressure modeled (what about the Brazilians, the Turks...). perhaps the safest assumption is historical progression of WITW/Africa with related pressure/constraint on WITE.


(in reply to Jimbo123)
Post #: 30
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