obvert
Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sredni
The common knowledge of the forum about 4e bombers mostly consists of a vocal group who complain endlessly about how OP 4e bombers are without anything more then anecdotes and feelings to back up their claims.
There are and have been endless threads about how OP 4e's are since AE's inception which don't pan out in the real game. The common "knowledge" that 4e's are better at sweeping enemy fighters then actual fighters are, doesn't happen in the game. The common "knowledge" that 4e's can go in, unescorted against swarms of fighters and not suffer any losses doesn't happen in game. The common "knowledge" that 4e's can operate day after day after day without pause doesn't happen in game. The common "knowledge" about how OP 4e bombers are at naval attack doesn't actually happen in game. The common "knowledge" that the allies can operate huge swarms of 4e bombers from the start of the game doesn't actually happen, in game. The common "knowledge" of the forums refuses to acknowledge or accept that 4e bombers will suffer operational losses that dwarf their actual combat losses (said combat losses aren't mythical or insignificant either), or that replacement numbers are miniscule until toward the end of the war.
There seems to be a vocal subset of the forums who have some sort of collective groupthink about how OP 4e bombers are that bears little resemblance to actual gameplay results.
Which leaves me to question any sort of balance complaint brought up about 4e bombers. Is this thread about how OP night air 4e bombers are legitimate (it started out about night combat but seems to have morphed into a 4e bombers vs japan at night thread)? Or is it just another of the endless common "knowledge" threads about how unfair and OP and invincible 4e bombers are?
The fact that already there have been claims that the japanese 2e bombers obviously don't suffer from the over poweredness of the 4e's leads me to doubt the veracity of this complaint as well.
I wish more people would show statistically significant experimental results to back up their claims on these forums, instead of endless threads like this one with just more rhetoric and anecdotes. I want realism out of this game. The more realistic the better. I believe that's something we all should want. If 4e bombers are behaving unrealistically I want their behavior improved, even if that "improvement" is a negative change for the allies. An improvement of increased realism is an improvement to the game as a whole. But it's hard to find any sort of balanced viewpoint backed up by more then just feelings about 4 engine bombers on these forums.
(apologies if this post came off as hostile or nasty. bad day at work and I'm still all twitchy and out of sorts)
Firstly, the Original Post which I've back-linked you to here. In it there is a combat report example. Only one, so not much, but it is what you're asking for, which is an idea backed up by at least some evidence.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3387808
Secondly, almost the entire thread has been focused on night bombing. I have been especially interested because I have had some difficulty dealing with the validity of night bombing results as well as the difficulty of responding to it from the Japanese side due to the incredible losses taken by NF or day fighter sent up to CAP against night bombing. This led me to do some researching and reading, asking for known examples from the war about night bombing, and try to understand better what we should expect. I really just want something that seems plausible based on evidence from the period, and because I'm interested in playing both sides and keeping a balance for both sides I am not trying to advocate for either specifically.
From the evidence and examples I've seen, other posts and my own reading, I believe we shouldn't expect night bombing to hit any target precisely in a game in WW2 era. Various nations tried over several years in multiple theatres and none of them made a practice of precision night bombing, the best finding that they were not able to get within even five miles of their target consistently (British). They all went to area bombing as the only effective way to use bombing at night (British, German, US).
Thirdly, here is an example from my own Scen 1 game AAR of a massed night bombing in mid-42 by the Allies on a level 6 airfield. In this case 163 4E and 2E hit a level 6 field, shut it down and destroyed 36 fighters on the ground. Read down the page for more info and stuff about bombing in the war as well as actual stats of B-24 use in CBI and it's record against the Oscar. (In daylight).
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3348553
Fourthly, here is an example of CAP getting shredded at night. And another. And another. And another. 
These are against non-NF as there are no NF in 42. To try to decrease effectiveness of the bombing I tried to sacrifice fighters to slow it down, but the losses are so staggering it's counter-productive. This is after adopting a 50 bomber per turn per target night-bombing HR. As you can see it still works quite well, and the ability of even a few planes to both destroy planes on the ground is certainly not 'barely able to get within 5 miles of the target' kind of accuracy and in the air the defensive fire is laughably strong, (especially since these fighters should be operating alone, should have trouble intercepting the bombers, and should be hard to see let alone hit on anything but the brightest, clearest nights).
If you have other sources or examples I'd love to read/see them. I really came into this with an open mind thinking maybe I just didn't know enough about the history here. I've come this far now thinking that night bombing is much more powerful that it should be in game. (I have more samples and I'm happy to run a test or two if anyone has any they think would work).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR August 29, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 16
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 8
B-24D Liberator x 9
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 6 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 23
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 7
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
< Message edited by obvert -- 8/24/2013 4:48:25 PM >
_____________________________
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
|
Printable Version
RE: Is night air combat broken? - 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread