RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Discussion

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 5:14:27 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
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Tours,

As others have stated above, many ARs amply demonstrate that the logistical mechanic in this game is fantasy in so far as air supply, and mostly fuel supply of forward units, is concerned. This thread concerns the generality of what the game allows. The type of aerial resupply shown in the image below from our game is but one example of fantasy air supply fairies at work. Now, if you have any credible reference or source which demonstrates effective use of aircraft in the East Front during WW2 to refuel panzer corps operating hundreds of kilometers ahead of the logistical tether or behind enemy lines to enable sustained mobile operations please share.

Thanks

[/quote]

(in reply to mmarquo)

Post #: 61

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 6:34:47 AM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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Mark,
Is this picture shows I "Flying bomber fairies fueling marauding panzer corps 500 km behind the front"?
I really didn't see it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Tours,

As others have stated above, many ARs amply demonstrate that the logistical mechanic in this game is fantasy in so far as air supply, and mostly fuel supply of forward units, is concerned. This thread concerns the generality of what the game allows. The type of aerial resupply shown in the image below from our game is but one example of fantasy air supply fairies at work. Now, if you have any credible reference or source which demonstrates effective use of aircraft in the East Front during WW2 to refuel panzer corps operating hundreds of kilometers ahead of the logistical tether or behind enemy lines to enable sustained mobile operations please share.

Thanks

< Message edited by mktours -- 8/31/2013 6:36:46 AM >

(in reply to mmarquo)

Post #: 62

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 6:50:31 AM

SigUp

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double post

< Message edited by SigUp -- 8/31/2013 6:52:51 AM >

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 63

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 6:52:01 AM

SigUp

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Joined: 11/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Mark,
Is this picture shows I "Flying bomber fairies fueling marauding panzer corps 500 km behind the front"?
I really didn't see it.

If his information is correct for the distance of the HQ from the railhead it is close to 200+ km. The HQ is 27 MPs away, that's about 120 miles, or 190 km. Considering the Panzers are a few hexes ahead, you get 200+ km.

< Message edited by SigUp -- 8/31/2013 6:53:24 AM >

(in reply to SigUp)

Post #: 64

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 6:52:23 AM

SigUp

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triple post

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Post #: 65

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 9:39:38 AM

Mehring

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Katukov is correct, but he is being a bit kind. Both major air supply operations used fixed airfield and group support elements.

That supply missions took place, successful or not, means that an historical simulation must allow them. I assume what you mean by 'fixed airfield' are those with concrete runways and heated hangers, among other facilities. I raised the issue of their not being represented soon after game release. They are a glaring omission from the air and logistical systems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Jahn is correct, air drop supply was used, rarely, to support grand tactical objectives by divisional subunits... basically things that happen below the scale of the game.

The counter you see on the map cannot represent the entire division in one place. It has to be an abstraction of units that are possibly strung out over tens of miles, particularly in an advance. The counter fighting the battle, then, may well be a regimental battle group, concievably supplied by air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Logistic problems are a MAJOR feature of an historic based East Front game.

We live in hope.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Trying to horsetrade game flaws is unhelpful and actually sort of odd. The blizzard is a separate issue, morale is a separate issue.

I disagree. The game has to work in its entirety and a balance of cheese is better than a one sided game. Resolving one problem impacts on the rest of the game which has then to be re-evaluated. What most of us want, though, is as close to an historical simulation as a game system can deliver.

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Post #: 66

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 11:43:28 AM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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quote:

I disagree. The game has to work in its entirety and a balance of cheese is better than a one sided game. Resolving one problem impacts on the rest of the game which has then to be re-evaluated. What most of us want, though, is as close to an historical simulation as a game system can deliver.

+1

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Post #: 67

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 12:27:09 PM

swkuh

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Maybe some would want something beyond "an historical simulation." Historical accuracy is very nice and is an attractive feature of this "war game," but good playing technology, good game play, and interesting variations might be compromised by overreaching historicity. (Hmmm... lets model camouflage schemes and see what that does to the date Berlin falls, or Moscow is reached-NOT!)

How about some strategic and tactical evaluation reports/maps/panels? Simpler and easier to use Commanders' Reports? New color schemes? Useful user manuals (editor, game, scenarios?)

Besides "historicity" there is game play and breadth of interests that attract the customers.

Also, note katukov's recent post under "game suggestions."

< Message edited by rrbill -- 8/31/2013 12:29:29 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 68

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 1:59:29 PM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

I disagree. The game has to work in its entirety and a balance of cheese is better than a one sided game. Resolving one problem impacts on the rest of the game which has then to be re-evaluated. What most of us want, though, is as close to an historical simulation as a game system can deliver.

+1

+1 again.

It appears many are confusing game and historical reality. I don't think anyone can argue the historical Luftwaffe was capable of doing what WitE allows, then again the same can be said for the VVS or a host of other things currently allowed in the game from both sides. The question should be - as a WitE mechanic is it over the top currently implemented? Or does it allow, or is it necessary for a competitive game? Based on my own experience and from posted AARs I lean more towards it allows for a better, more competitive game.

The mktours-Marquo match is not typical; it is an outlier. mktours seems to have developed a certain mathematical precision, not only with fuel drops but also getting rolls for MPs, planning successive moves etc. That in combination with Marquo's inexperience in dealing with such a player snowballed the overall effect. And snowballing either one way or the other is what WitE excels at.

Michael T's play is also an outlier. Trying to balance or design the game based on these sorts of extremes is not the answer. My .02.

< Message edited by Ron -- 8/31/2013 2:00:45 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 69

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 2:31:31 PM

mktours

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SigUp,
I think the meaning of the sentence is that "fueling to the units sit 500 km behind the front line".
my english is very poor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Mark,
Is this picture shows I "Flying bomber fairies fueling marauding panzer corps 500 km behind the front"?
I really didn't see it.

If his information is correct for the distance of the HQ from the railhead it is close to 200+ km. The HQ is 27 MPs away, that's about 120 miles, or 190 km. Considering the Panzers are a few hexes ahead, you get 200+ km.

(in reply to SigUp)

Post #: 70

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 6:22:04 PM

ivanov

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

The question should be - as a WitE mechanic is it over the top currently implemented? Or does it allow, or is it necessary for a competitive game? Based on my own experience and from posted AARs I lean more towards it allows for a better, more competitive game.

Unfortunately the current air supply system is totally over the top. Should it be left unchanged in order to allow for a more fun and competitive game? I don't think so. Currently the WITE players are affected by many history based contrains. Just from the top of my head: the Finnish no attack line, the units withdrawing to other fronts, or being arbitrary disbanded, pre set production, Italin surrender and many more. You could argue that the game would be better and more dynamic, if the those constrains could be negated by the actions of the players. Currently it is not the case, so the fantasy air supplying system is quite incomprehensible. Appart from faulty strategy, the logistic was probably the single, most important factor that caused the Axis defeat on the Eastern Front. And since the game is called War in the East, not Fantasy General, many players expect to represent it in an accurate way.

The Demyansk airlift operation was the first of it's kind in the history of the warfare. Having said this the air supply by air was in it's infancy during the WW2 and the German experience was developed and implemented on a larger scale only after the war. The first instance of a successful air supplying of the advancing mechanized spearheads was the Israeli Sinai campaign of 1967.

< Message edited by katukov -- 8/31/2013 6:34:47 PM >

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 71

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 8/31/2013 10:05:30 PM

mmarquo

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"It appears many are confusing game and historical reality. I don't think anyone can argue the historical Luftwaffe was capable of doing what WitE allows, then again the same can be said for the VVS or a host of other things currently allowed in the game from both sides. The question should be - as a WitE mechanic is it over the top currently implemented?"

Yes, it is undeniably over the top; and once again, excusing one flaw because it perhaps counterbalances a completely different flaw is a poor excuse IMHO.

(in reply to ivanov)

Post #: 72

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 12:39:09 AM

Ron

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Katukov - Yes I agree historically, I'm certainly not arguing that, however in context regards WitE I think you missed the point of myself and the quoted text.

Marquo - No question, I think you have stated your views several times now. In theory two wrongs do not make a right, however it appears to me WitE is a collection of wrongs trying to make a right. And while in this case the flying fuel is your pet one, it certainly doesn't stand alone as a wrong.

(in reply to mmarquo)

Post #: 73

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 2:17:22 AM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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quote:

it certainly doesn't stand alone as a wrong.

Nor is it the worst 'wrong'. I think the blizzard would take that mantle.

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Post #: 74

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 2:32:55 AM

ivanov

Posts: 1107
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Katukov - Yes I agree historically, I'm certainly not arguing that, however in context regards WitE I think you missed the point of myself and the quoted text.

If I understood correctly, you were saying that the WITE supply may be unrealistic but it also may balance other gameplay isses and work well within the whole imperfect system, right?

What I meant is that it would be great to see a new, reworked, realistic supply in the game. And of course there other "wrongs" in the system that would need to be addressed aswell. I fully appreciate that this would be a titanic work for the developers but is I'm not mistaken, WITE2 is supposed to be kind of a new game?

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 75

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 4:26:16 AM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

it certainly doesn't stand alone as a wrong.

Nor is it the worst 'wrong'. I think the blizzard would take that mantle.

I'd call them equally bad myself, and mirror images of each other. But this is quibbling.

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Post #: 76

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 2:23:14 PM

SuluSea

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It looks like average players are frustrated by superior players tactics and/or players that seek an *historical type game are frustrated by gamers.. The developers have given the ability to players to adjust settings to level the playing field . I play the AI so have no dog in the fight but I do hope the squeeky wheels don't mess up the game for the AI players.

Asterisk by historical games because it's been my experience players requesting an historical game play by their concept of historical what ifs...

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/1/2013 2:25:04 PM >

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Post #: 77

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 3:54:55 PM

Flaviusx

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Salusea, it's more a question of sensible players being irritated by cheese. There's some deeply silly things going on in this game, utterly indefensible. You seem reluctant to get into the particulars here; that's very wise of you, because if you did, you'd find it impossible to defend them yourself. So please spare us the lecture.

Mucking around with the settings is poor substitute for flawed design.

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Post #: 78

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 4:50:05 PM

SuluSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Salusea, it's more a question of sensible players being irritated by cheese. There's some deeply silly things going on in this game, utterly indefensible. You seem reluctant to get into the particulars here; that's very wise of you, because if you did, you'd find it impossible to defend them yourself. So please spare us the lecture.

Mucking around with the settings is poor substitute for flawed design.

Hi, not to worry I may not be posting long here, reading it looks like there's some venom between the two sides in this part of the forum.

Both sides are able to exploit capabilities and use historical knowledge to fight a better war. The Soviets have the initiative longer so they are able to use historical knowledge to pursue fighting a better war. Both sides being equal players............. Keep in mind the definition of the term "historical type fight" differs for every member in this forum. Gamers will always push the engine to it's limits. The developers have to strike a balance between game play and historical abilities. I believe the developers have done just that and provided a fine product.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/1/2013 4:51:01 PM >

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Post #: 79

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/1/2013 5:04:46 PM

Flaviusx

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Oh, absolutely there is cheese to spare on both sides.

The game works fine for solo (you can avoid the cheese, and indeed, handicap yourself and help the AI,) and you are a solo player so none of this affects you, but it is wrecking PBEM. I myself no longer PBEM as a result.

Changing the settings around isn't really much of a solution in PBEM. For starters, you are locked into those settings for the entirety of the game in PBEM, and in my estimation that will not work in PBEM. For example, in order to tame the blizzard, you need to do things that won't work in any other part of the game. Against the AI, I find 125 settings across the board just about do the trick and let the AI get into 1942 in reasonable shape.

In a PBEM match that would be way too much. But the blizzard is so over the top that any adjustments made to deal with it will blow up in your face outside of it.

Then there is the whole business of running away, which both sides do, which really can't be dealt with in the existing game engine at all. It can only be addressed, if at all, with house rules of some sort.

Then there is the air supply stuff. The air model in general has many problems and can be exploited in numerous ways. (This model is being abandoned in WITW, happily.)

If you're just going to play solo, then you can ignore all this chit chat and do what you're doing, as none of it affects you. But telling people to just change the settings isn't the answer to multiple design issues that become glaringly obvious in a PBEM context. Those settings are both too strong, too inflexible, and too limited in scope to deal with these matters, which are many.

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/2/2013 3:14:25 AM

mmarquo

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Maybe an answer to the blizzard is to obligate the Soviet player to do at least one HQ build-up every turn he does full, non-hasty attacks; this will drain AP's and trucks...

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/4/2013 11:15:13 PM

Gabriel B.

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maybe the SS, Luftwafe , and jagger units should perform similar to mountain troops . during the blizard .

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Post #: 82

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/5/2013 6:24:01 PM

heliodorus04

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Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

I've been gone for 18 months, and the bias of the Sovie-o-phile population of this game is transparent still. As Michael T said; he has never lost a game as Soviet (I believe his quote was actually that he's never come close to losing as Soviet).

Obviously, this bias will carry over into War in the West and further titles, and I will have none of those.

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Post #: 83

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/5/2013 6:41:10 PM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

Apparently, you've (deliberately?) ignored all the debate regarding the nerfing of Soviet runaways, fantasy Soviet OOB, Soviet morale, etc ...

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 84

RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/5/2013 8:51:07 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

Apparently, you've (deliberately?) ignored all the debate regarding the nerfing of Soviet runaways, fantasy Soviet OOB, Soviet morale, etc ...

Nothing new in his MO.

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/5/2013 9:13:57 PM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dangun

These conversations about 'fantasy fuel air-drops' seem to show that most people - me included, don't understand what is being done to them.

If someone (MKTours?) could explain how to get such a profound positive effect from air-dropping fuel, this conversation would probably move along better and be more constructive.

Starting turn 2 put up a exploitation force made up of 3 motorised divisions under direct panzer army control :

Pz gr 4 : 3, 36, Totenkopf

Pz gr 3 : 14, 18, 20 .

Pz gr 2 : 10, 29, Reich.

Pz gr 1 : Wiking, LSAH, 25 .

These are suplied only by airdrops and cannot/will not perform HQ build up.

Depending on aircraft reliability rates 75% of fuel needed by this exploitation force can be delivered by air . Agc bomber force need reshaping to suport both pz gr2 and 3 , but the ags has exces capacity and reinforcements are ariving fast .

Tanks and infantry act as sledgehammers , punch a gap in soviet lines , the expoitation force pours trough, the next turn tanks and infantry folow up in their wake .

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 9/5/2013 9:15:55 PM >

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/6/2013 12:36:40 AM

delatbabel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Depending on aircraft reliability rates 75% of fuel needed by this exploitation force can be delivered by air .

I will accept this as a valid tactic if someone in this forum can personally stand on the ground and catch a couple of tonnes of diesel fuel dropped by air.

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/6/2013 1:29:24 AM

Michael T

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Obviously the the a\c are landing on a flat field (not an airstrip), rolling the drums of fuel down a few planks and then taking off back to the point of departure for the second sortie.

Why is this so hard to imagine? Why does everyone want to make it sound more complex than it is?

IIRC the capacity of non transport a/c is already reduced by 50% and they only get to fly one mission. Plus there is wastage. I really can't see why this kind of thing is not plausible. Mud and Blizzard conditions would make a permanent air strip neccesary but otherwise in clear weather this must be possible. Hell they did this in the PTO on a regular basis, bulldoze a strip in a day and within 24 hours transports were flying supplies in.

If the Soviets are running and the Mech units are chasing them then surely they would/could have used the LB fleet to act as transports especially when not being used as Ground Support as there was no enemy to bomb.

Use some imagination people. The Germans were quite innovative when faced with new problems. AND I am almost certain Guderian wanted to use the LB for this very purpose sometime in July 1941. IIRC I read it somewhere many years ago when the Germans halted for supply lines to catch up. Guderian beleived he could pursue with air supply (fuel) but was overruled by some superior, maybe even Hitler. Not sure but the theory was certainly in the mindset of the forward thinking Panzer General.

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/6/2013 1:30:31 AM

Aurelian

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Not even the Western Allies could do it. Instead.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ball_Express

So how could the Luftwaffe?

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/6/2013 1:32:11 AM >

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RE: Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Disc... - 9/6/2013 1:36:09 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Hell they did this in the PTO on a regular basis, bulldoze a strip in a day and within 24 hours transports were flying supplies in.

And there are many examples of how it was done in the PTO. Have any for the Eastern Front? With sources?

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