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RE: Airplanes - 10/12/2013 8:40:48 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Will you still have that much buffer bandwidth in Chile?

But back on topic, are you sharing your source material with theElf. Notwithstanding what some around here may think of their own contributions to this exercise, I rather suspect that feedback from theElf would trump others'.

Alfred

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 91
RE: Airplanes - 10/12/2013 3:01:23 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Will you still have that much buffer bandwidth in Chile?

But back on topic, are you sharing your source material with theElf. Notwithstanding what some around here may think of their own contributions to this exercise, I rather suspect that feedback from theElf would trump others'.

Alfred

Yep. Chile is quite developed.

Ian's pretty busy, but I'm getting lots of real-time help and encouragement from other Air Team people. Also have Ian's collection of data and 'things'.

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Post #: 92
RE: Airplanes - 10/12/2013 4:52:45 PM   
MrKane


Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
Status: offline 		Hi Symon,

One short question, do you plan to do something with Ki-94-II ?
As a plane never flu, there is no confirmed data available for this airframe.
Originally it should be high-altitude interceptor but with current in game climb rate it does not fit to role.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 93
RE: Airplanes - 10/12/2013 7:04:08 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Hi Symon,

One short question, do you plan to do something with Ki-94-II ?
As a plane never flu, there is no confirmed data available for this airframe.
Originally it should be high-altitude interceptor but with current in game climb rate it does not fit to role.

Hi MrKane. Yes, but the experimental models will have to wait till last. The more planes I do (and can compare with my model) the better the model converges and the more comfy I feel about using it for the "never were" planes.

I do note that the climb rate for the Ki-94 is right out of Francillon and is just about the 'time to climb' to 30k. I'm using a different paradigm for "climb". It's a sum of the averages (or average of the sums, I forget) of rates at 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k. So Ki-94 should come up a more nominal value.

We are redefininf a few things in order to have certain planes fit their roles a bit better. The "ceiling" value has gone down to realistic operational levels for both sides. Bomber ceilings are predicated on their actual operational limits. Only "some" planes will have the capability to bring down hi-alt B-types. Only "some" planes will have the capability to escort them.

The game algorithm is very complex. Pinging on one data point will paint you into a corner. The algorithm has to do A2A and everything else. The algorithm looks at many aircraft variables for many different combat modalities. It is a function of speed and climb and maneuver within each and every altitude band, and it (of course) varies with the band.

The Air Team got it right. But they didn't have the time to get all the data lined-up, self-consistent, and unified.That's what this is all about.

Ciao. JWE

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(in reply to MrKane)
Post #: 94
RE: Airplanes - 10/12/2013 8:49:29 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		JWE, Gents -

This is why I am addicted to and love this forum. I am not a math guy, but the Smart Guys can break it all down into tables and language that even I can understand.

I loved the AAA data - and know that the airframe/engine number crunching will be just as good.

My absolute respect and appreciation to all of you who are doing the work and making it happen, so that the rest of us can enjoy your hard work.

This thread, along with many others on the AE forum is an education that could not be found anywhere else.

Well Done, Gents.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 10/13/2013 10:45:28 PM >

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Post #: 95
RE: Airplanes - 10/14/2013 6:35:51 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
It's a sum of the averages (or average of the sums, I forget)



Mac nailed it. Best thread in a while.

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Post #: 96
RE: Airplanes - 10/14/2013 7:22:24 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		While I was setting up the spreadsheet parameters for the model, I noticed a few things about very high altitude (31k+) performance. Now, there’s quite a few planes that can get to 31k, under the new paradigm, but only just. It doesn’t make sense to give them a 31k+ maneuver rating, based on 30k numerics, since they are at the 500fpm limit, and couldn’t do bloody squat with it anyhow.

So, I devised a very arbitrary calculation algorithm that divides the 31k+ band into thirds.
If you limit out in the 31-33 range, you get raped. If you limit out in the 34-36 range you get the nominal rating. If you limit out at 37+, you get your actual power rating.

Set up a little sandbox program, and this seems to work very well. Gosh, knowing what we do now, we could have done Ian’s algorithm up proud. Would have taken an additional 100 man hours of coding work, and maybe 400-500 man hours of data acquisition and entry. Just a simple 3 month delay and an equivalent $27,000 in free time. Ouch !!

Just imagine if “speed” and “climb” were put into bands, along with maneuver. Woof !!! That’s kind of what we are doing, although we are limited to what the game algorithm does. We have to be abstract, but abstract in exactly the same way for everybody. None of this searching the web for the best numbers stuff.

[ed] I know this is taking forever, but it's a lot like B'rer Rabbit and the tar-baby; tweak one thing and get stuck, so have to tweak another, and another, and, oh lordy, please don't tho' me in dat briar patch. Taking a lot longer than expected, but it should be as complete, unified and self-consistent as we can make it, at all levels.

Ciao. JWE


< Message edited by Symon -- 10/16/2013 5:34:04 PM >

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Post #: 97
RE: Airplanes - 10/19/2013 9:21:31 AM   
sandman455


Posts: 209
Joined: 7/5/2011
From: 20 yrs ago - SDO -> med down, w/BC glasses on
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

While I was setting up the spreadsheet parameters for the model, I noticed a few things about very high altitude (31k+) performance. Now, there’s quite a few planes that can get to 31k, under the new paradigm, but only just. It doesn’t make sense to give them a 31k+ maneuver rating, based on 30k numerics, since they are at the 500fpm limit, and couldn’t do bloody squat with it anyhow.

So, I devised a very arbitrary calculation algorithm that divides the 31k+ band into thirds.
If you limit out in the 31-33 range, you get raped. If you limit out in the 34-36 range you get the nominal rating. If you limit out at 37+, you get your actual power rating.



So ingenious, wish I had thought of it.
Looking forward to seeing your final results.

_____________________________

Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 98
RE: Airplanes - 10/19/2013 2:00:48 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I have to echo what Mac wrote. Thanks

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Post #: 99
RE: Airplanes - 10/19/2013 3:12:25 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		John,

Just lovin' it here. You're doing great work. THANKS!!



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Pax

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Post #: 100
RE: Airplanes - 10/19/2013 4:57:34 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455
So ingenious, wish I had thought of it.
Looking forward to seeing your final results.

Thanks. It was literally a Homer Simpson moment. There I was, working on bands anyway and … D’oh !! JWE no function beer well without.

Japan has some planes that are extremely maneuverable up to 15k, highly maneuverable to 20k, moderate/good maneuverability to 30k. Most gasp for air above that. It would seem that the earlier Japanese two stage superchargers had a lowblo critalt of between 6 and 10000 and a highblo critalt of between 15 and 17000. The later engines and superchargers had a lowblo critalt around 10000 and highblo critalt around 20000. Some ‘high altitude’ interceptors had tweaked superchargers that could maintain ‘rated’ power (but a skoosh less than the ‘normal’ engine) up to 25000.

Similarly, US planes have good maneuverability all the way to 20k, and the later ones have exactly the same range of moderate/good maneuver as many Japanese in the 20-30k band. The early US engines had a lowblo critalt around 10000 and a highblo critalt around 15-18000 (ct, P-39/40). Later US engines had nominal highblo critalts of around 25000. Although US plane weights were considerably higher than their Japanese counterparts, their compensatory nominal engine power output was higher as well, especially at the higher altitudes.

Comparative numerics are working great. At moderate altitudes, the Japanese are seriously competitive, although they do break more easily. From 20k to 30k, things look a bit more equalized; the speed function is rearing its head, so some of the “speed” tweaks we made will have ‘some’ IJ planes be competitive in this regime as well. Think comparative performance at altitude is pretty well done.

The witch, of course, is what happens at the ‘beyond critalt’ altitudes. Ok, so there really is a model for this, for ‘mechanically’ supercharged engines: Normal power fall-off after CritAlt as a function of density (hemi, demi, semi, inverse square) going to the 100 fpm ‘service’ altitude. This power plot is then used to obtain the ‘practical’ ceilings for various planes. For fighters, etc.. it is what is generally considered the ‘combat’ ceiling – around the 750-1000 fpm limit. For ‘interceptors, it’s around the 250-500 fpm limit. And it works: It is a beautiful thing.

It works perfectly with planes having turbo-superchargers. Very Hi Alt maneuver, speed, etc.. Looks like we got something here.


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 101
RE: Airplanes - 10/20/2013 2:22:02 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah, the issue that the IJ had for a long time was they had 2 spd blowers, but NOT 2 stage multi speed blowers. For altitude you really need multiple stages with intercoolers in between and THEN multi speed to allow for combat situations. I haven't been able to find out exactly what their issue was in this regard, but it was the main delay of the entire 2x9 (18 cylinder) family of engines ... the Ha-4x series going into production. They had other issues of course with each engine, but in aggregate they struggled with the multi-stage blowers. My current thought is the inter-cooler itself as they also struggled with twin chargers. Why they simply did not ask Berlin for help is a mystery as the Germans, like the others, all had this working in 1940.

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Pax

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 102
RE: Airplanes - 10/20/2013 6:03:37 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Why they simply did not ask Berlin for help is a mystery as the Germans, like the others, all had this working in 1940.

Read somewhere that IJ planes were very surface conscious; everything was as slim and light as possible to get drag down and keep power loading up there. So there wasn’t any room to add any ‘after market’ goddies without an airframe tweak. And then, turbos needed some serious ducting (weight) and intercoolers ditto, along with intake drag. There were two or three follow-on models that were speced out with turbos, that they had high hopes for, but they couldn’t find a shoehorn big enough, so settled for mechanicals.

And then there was the Stooges comedy between the Military and the designers. Designers made a righteous plane, but then the military comes along (way late in the process) and says, ‘oh no, we want it put there, not here.’ IJ planes had a very sensitive delta-cg budget. Moving something from here to there was an exercise; it took time; Nan-desuka !!!

Am researching the Ki-87 and it is a perfect case in point. Plane was designed with a turbo. Airframe constraints forced the designers to mount it (and ram/intercooler intakes) starboard side and forward of cg. Would have been ‘bumpy’ like a late war Me-109, But the “powers that be” were like, “oh, no, no, WE think you should put it in the belly, behind the cockpit, and add a duct, on the belly, behind the wing, and shift the cockpit forward two feet, and oh, yeah, move the firewall up two feet, and …”

So, Toro and Hamachi committed Seppuku, and the plane was delayed by another 3 months.

Japan had the tech. It’s not rocket science. We had rum-runners tuning up cars during Prohibition, for Chris’ sake. I think it is a national, technical, conceptual, approach to aircraft performance. Japan chose one path and everything they did was in accord with their philosophy. Woof !!

I love this stuff. Please keep talking.

Just IMHO. JWE


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 103
RE: Airplanes - 10/20/2013 11:11:19 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		You're right about the Stooges comedy vis-a-vis the military. If the Army wanted it on the right, then the Navy had to have it on the left. They were short of resources and wasted them badly on such things.

Ki-87 - very interesting stuff there. What can I say about this twin charger ... at least it is accessible, right?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/20/2013 11:14:32 PM >

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Pax

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Post #: 104
RE: Airplanes - 10/20/2013 11:22:59 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I am just waiting for the discovery that bombers also should get altitude bands , that way it forces the user to use the typical altitude in operation or getting the penalty, well maybe the solution is to put everything as a fighter bomber... in a more perfect game the range should be connected to altitude bands, crew quality, attack size - more bombers less range since they have all to bunch up - , airport size which affects the rate of take off .

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Post #: 105
RE: Airplanes - 10/20/2013 11:54:04 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		I don't think so. Right now, the altitude you set is the attack profile altitude*, not the altitude that they transit at. Transit altitude is whatever was optimal in terms of range for the a/c and in this era for most a/c that would be 10 - 20K.

As you change the bomber altitude you see the affect in terms of lower hit%, less noticeable with heavy bombers and their better bomb sights.

No, I think the devs have this aspect pretty much in control.



* except for TB's for which the attack profile is hard coded.

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Pax

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Post #: 106
RE: Airplanes - 10/21/2013 4:30:25 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		So the game engine only make possible to have interception in the bomb run, is this true?
In case of torpedo bombers(Beaufort, Beaufighter for example) the altitude was more like a patrol aircraft and certainly not the optimal altitude for range, but the optimal altitude to detect ships. Maybe a naval attack should have less radius of action than a land attack since there is also some search to be done.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 107
RE: Airplanes - 10/21/2013 7:07:42 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Ok, almost done. IJ is done, US is done, Just have to do the Allies. Hootz gazootiez !!

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Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
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Post #: 108
RE: Airplanes - 10/21/2013 7:13:03 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		John - I've been reading this thread for a while now. I cannot offer anything meaningful to the conversation, but look forward to the results.

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Post #: 109
RE: Airplanes - 10/21/2013 7:40:17 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

John - I've been reading this thread for a while now. I cannot offer anything meaningful to the conversation, but look forward to the results.


Same here.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 110
RE: Airplanes - 10/21/2013 10:29:30 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

So the game engine only make possible to have interception in the bomb run, is this true?
In case of torpedo bombers(Beaufort, Beaufighter for example) the altitude was more like a patrol aircraft and certainly not the optimal altitude for range, but the optimal altitude to detect ships. Maybe a naval attack should have less radius of action than a land attack since there is also some search to be done.


1. The air model is point to point. Combat occurs at the target hex at the assigned altitudes which may be the transit altitude or the bomb run depending on how much warning time the CAP had, their climbing rates, whether the CAP gets through the escorting fighters first, if there is post bombing run interception etc etc etc.

2. Don't see any grounds for a naval attack to have less radius. Not true that all naval attacks have to spend more time finding their target than land attack.

3. The game algorithms already factor in the differences between naval and land attacks. One of the means it does so is through Detection Levels.

4. Naval Search is already handled differently from Naval Attack.

There is a limit to tactical considerations possible in a game of this nature. Abstraction of tactical considerations is unavoidable.

Alfred

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 111
RE: Airplanes - 10/22/2013 1:53:15 PM   
packerpete

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Quick question sir. Are you going to incorporate/use the aircraft weapons load feature? I think it would be nice to throw in the non offending/troublesome weapons to add more flavor to the game.

Thank you for your continuing time and effort on improving an already fantastic game.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 112
RE: Airplanes - 10/22/2013 2:12:05 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Feature is already in there. Michaelm put it in one of the Betas a while back. Should be a thread somewhere about how to work it.

Will keep the standard load-outs for the scenarios. There's so many alternative load-outs that choosing one would be purely arbitrary. My choice might not be what another might choose. So the alternate load-outs are going to have to be a "player's choice" kind of thing Think that's the best way to keep most people happy.

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Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
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Post #: 113
RE: Airplanes - 10/22/2013 2:25:16 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Think that's the best way to keep most people happy.

100% agree. Any changes and the coyotes will be at your heels left, right, and center.

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Pax

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Post #: 114
RE: Airplanes - 10/22/2013 5:39:30 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

There is a limit to tactical considerations possible in a game of this nature. Abstraction of tactical considerations is unavoidable.


Thanks for reply. And obviously depends on work invested for the results.

I disagree with naval attacks, but i agree with your

quote:

Not true that all naval attacks have to spend more time finding their target than land attack.


i wasn't clear enough, saying the operative word , most or many.

Actually this could be done with something that could work also for land attacks. Extreme range attacks should have much less odds to be successful: wind, crew quality, strike size etc.

Now any decision like i said must be done if the issue is important against the what investment must be done to change.


I also make a another post about aerial warfare not not hijack this thread.


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Post #: 115
RE: Airplanes - 10/23/2013 12:37:20 PM   
packerpete

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		I understand your position sir, but let me try to explain my reasoning. I do not have the resources that you possess as to the actual/practical load outs on every aircraft or weapon ever made. I do not have access to the code either (Thank YOU JESUS!!). You have mentioned that code does not handle certain weapons well or at all in some cases like depth charges, rockets and parafrags. I am also aware of the debate on the US dive bombers getting the bigger bombs. I guess what I am asking for is a common baseline that the AE community can use a starting point with a listing of the weapons that are excluded because of code incompatibility reasons. There just does not appear to a one stop shopping list for this and many areas in regard to weapons that known only to the devs.

I do hope that you would consider my request sir. I do not wish to offend anyone. It just seems to me that on this issue there is a lot of gray areas that need to mapped out for the less informed ones like myself that love this game.

Thank you for your time.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 116
RE: Airplanes - 10/23/2013 2:47:10 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Extreme range attacks should have much less odds to be successful: wind, crew quality, strike size etc.


This is already accounted for in part by pilot and AC fatigue. Longer ranges greatly increase both and these clearly lower the odds of a good attack outcome.

If I were to make a suggestion, it would be that short range attacks should have a probability of having more than one in a day. A ground attack of range=1 (40 miles) should have a high probability of multiple day attacks. As the range increases this would drop off so that we get back to our single attack per day.

And of course there should be the player option to limit to one attack per day, as clearly plane and pilot fatigue would dramatically rise. PLayer might not want to pulse that many missions, particularly on multi-day turns.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 117
RE: Airplanes - 10/23/2013 5:53:24 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: packerpete
I do hope that you would consider my request sir. I do not wish to offend anyone. It just seems to me that on this issue there is a lot of gray areas that need to mapped out for the less informed ones like myself that love this game.

Thank you for your time.

And thank you. I will consider your requests. Moved your request to a separate thread, because it is important in many ways. Started to address your issues. Understand that there's some degree of obscurity, but will do my best to make it less opaque.

Ciao. JWE
Dili will you please either leave or start your own thread. Your hijacking is rather annoying.

< Message edited by Symon -- 10/23/2013 6:02:32 PM >

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Post #: 118
RE: Airplanes - 10/23/2013 8:15:09 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks. I had thought too with short range attack, actually in war for short range often were more than 2 for close support and fighter aircraft.

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Post #: 119
RE: Airplanes - 10/23/2013 8:23:05 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		I would appreciate it if your hijack discussions were taken elsewhere. They have no place on this thread. Thank you.
Good bye.

< Message edited by Symon -- 10/23/2013 9:15:30 PM >

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Post #: 120
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