Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Symon


If I knew what I was getting into, I would have bought a poop load more Mount Gay, Black Barrel. Makes a nice rum punch with an Emilia Romagna, pomegranate soda (with ginger) !!

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Several IJ planes will show up much more nicely, several Allied planes

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

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Several IJ planes will show up much more nicely, several Allied planes

Terrific, just what we need. So now the Japanese will have superior aircraft in unlimited numbers much earlier than possible while the Allies will have to keep making to with historical production and now some models being downgraded. Just what this game needs, less and less historical balance. How about a mod the gives Japan atomic bombs instead of the Allies?

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ORIGINAL: ny59giants
John,

A couple of quick questions. I went to DBB website and the various scenarios still show the versions are from 2012. Have any and/or all of them been updated with this data?? I ask as I'm playing DBB 30 and would like to add these changes to my game.

Has John 3rd been in touch with you to have this data changed for Reluctant Admiral mod??

Again, thanks for all your hard work here!!

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
So now the Japanese will have superior aircraft in unlimited numbers much earlier than possible while the Allies will have to keep making to with historical production and now some models being downgraded. Just what this game needs, less and less historical balance. How about a mod the gives Japan atomic bombs instead of the Allies?

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ORIGINAL: Symon

Might want to look at the file. You might be surprised.

Besides, it’s just the airplane file. If you don’t want to use it, just drop the old one back in. No big.

Am not really interested in what sorts of exploits that weenie wargamers can find. That's not the point of the game.
Actually, Japan won’t have superior airplanes (because they didn’t). What they get is “nominal” airplanes (because they did).
As to altitude (ceiling), “everybody” gets taken to their effective “operational/combat” ceilings under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to speed, “everybody” gets judged on Vmax at CritAlt, under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to maneuver, “everybody” gets judged on their actual airframe coefficients and their actual HP/Alt curves at “military” power, so the bands are more fine grained. So what’s the problem?
As to power, “everybody” gets judged on exactly the same basis of “military” power being maximum rated power for at least 15 minutes, continuous. So what’s the problem?
The air stuff was originally done on a catch-as-catch-can basis with much (most) being imported from WiTP. The air guys simply didn’t have the time to do this kind of in-depth analysis. But the analyses are being done in exact conformance with their specs, programs, and paradigms. This is simply what they could have done, given the time and opportunity. So what’s the problem?

You want absolute "hysterical" accuracy, watch a movie. Play this game righteous and you might be rewarded by learning a thing or two.

Ciao. JWE

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ORIGINAL: drw61

Well said John, Thanks for working on this.
Daryl

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ORIGINAL: Symon

Might want to look at the file. You might be surprised.

Besides, it’s just the airplane file. If you don’t want to use it, just drop the old one back in. No big.

Am not really interested in what sorts of exploits that weenie wargamers can find. That's not the point of the game.
Actually, Japan won’t have superior airplanes (because they didn’t). What they get is “nominal” airplanes (because they did).
As to altitude (ceiling), “everybody” gets taken to their effective “operational/combat” ceilings under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to speed, “everybody” gets judged on Vmax at CritAlt, under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to maneuver, “everybody” gets judged on their actual airframe coefficients and their actual HP/Alt curves at “military” power, so the bands are more fine grained. So what’s the problem?
As to power, “everybody” gets judged on exactly the same basis of “military” power being maximum rated power for at least 15 minutes, continuous. So what’s the problem?
The air stuff was originally done on a catch-as-catch-can basis with much (most) being imported from WiTP. The air guys simply didn’t have the time to do this kind of in-depth analysis. But the analyses are being done in exact conformance with their specs, programs, and paradigms. This is simply what they could have done, given the time and opportunity. So what’s the problem?

You want absolute "hysterical" accuracy, watch a movie. Play this game righteous and you might be rewarded by learning a thing or two.

Ciao. JWE

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ORIGINAL: Symon

The A2A code works exactly the same, only some of the data is different. There is still the bounce, sweeps, CAP, etc.., so there’s still much to talk about. Allied planes have an advantage at altitude (because they did), but it is still a later war phenomenon. Thing is the “height” advantage is no longer huge: the advantage is more in the speed/maneuver combo at “height”.

Thus, it’s important to know your specs and make your hi-speed, hi-maneuver-at-hi-altitude, planes serve as your interceptors (because they did). You will have some Jacks and Tonys early on, and more as time goes by .

Even if Allied planes get the bounce, IJ planes won’t be easy meat. There are quite a few 400 mph IJ planes, with nasty maneuver, in the moderate altitude bands. So ‘boom & zoom’ works once, but things will get ‘furball’ if the IJ pilots are any good (because they did).

Certainly not perfect, and certainly not ‘hysterical’, but a bit mo’ beda’ mon when it comes to results, if played righteous .

Anyway, here’s some US and IJ plane’s new altitude ceilings; Brits conform to the algorithm. For speeds, you are just gonna have to look .

26-27k – P-40
28-29k – P-36, P-39, P-40, F2A
30-31k – P-39, F4F, FM1/2, F4U
32-33k – P-40, F6F
34-35k – P-38, F4U, F7F, F8F
36-37k – P-47, P-51
38k – P-38, P-47

26-27k –
28-29k – A5M, A6M, Ki-27
30-31k – N1K2, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-84 Ki-100
32-33k – A6M, A7M, J2M, N1K1-J, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-61, Ki-84
34-35k – J2M5, N1K5, Ki-61-II, Ki-93
36-37k – Ki-83, Ki-94-II, Ki-100-II, Ki-102
38k –

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ORIGINAL: Symon
Won't be long, now.

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ORIGINAL: obvert
First of all THANKS!!! My next game will be DBB as Allies or Japan.

I've heard that the original speeds for Japanese planes were reduced to approximate poor quality av gas, but never seen this substantiated. Is that part of the equation somewhere? (Not suggesting it should be, use curious. The game of course goes many directions from 'hysterical') If you already addressed this sorry, I missed it.

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Next, simply for understanding better, will these changes make the dive less powerful somehow?

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Lastly, and this is mostly my inexperience, but also my curiosity, what is playing righteous? How best to maximize the intent of what you've done here?

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ORIGINAL: Symon

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ORIGINAL: obvert
First of all THANKS!!! My next game will be DBB as Allies or Japan.

I've heard that the original speeds for Japanese planes were reduced to approximate poor quality av gas, but never seen this substantiated. Is that part of the equation somewhere? (Not suggesting it should be, use curious. The game of course goes many directions from 'hysterical') If you already addressed this sorry, I missed it.

The original Japanese plane data came right out of Francillon. Francillon notes that his data are translations of the Japanese official acceptance documents. And several of these are reproduced in various forums like j-aircraft, or ww2aircraft.

Problem is they don’t say under what conditions the tests were performed. Apocryphal evidence suggests “normal” power, sometimes with drop tank(s) mounted, sometimes not, it’s a puzzlement.

Virtually every pilot has noted, in interviews, that their planes were faster than the official specs. Sakai routinely flew his 330 mph Zero at 350+ mph in combat. Trick is determining “military” power output and “military” prop rpm settings. Fortunately, those were findable. The contemporary US tests (1943, 44, 45) found many planes/engines performing right around their specs. Also found some that performed substantially better than spec.

Using mil/mil is important since that is how I evaluated the US/Allied planes. Consistency in data is everything.

IJ combat performance avgas was 92 grade and of good quality. It wasn’t till mid 44 that the recipe got dropped to 91 grade, in order to simply get more product. In 45 it went to 87, again just to get more volume of product. The US Technical Mission reports include a very nice one about Japanese refining techniques and fuels.

Anyway, I also started from Francillon, and kept to him as a baseline. Then I overlayed the TAIC reports (and the Brit tests) and did a final tweak with the aerodynamic equations after regression and fitting to get the coefficients right. Used the equations when there was no other credible source available, but it’s amazing how accurately they reproduce the actual test data set when run blind and compared.

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Next, simply for understanding better, will these changes make the dive less powerful somehow?

Not exactly, no. But it will make "certain" planes a bit less like ducks in a gallery under the bounce. And the surviving planes can give a better account of themselves in the subsequent furball.

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Lastly, and this is mostly my inexperience, but also my curiosity, what is playing righteous? How best to maximize the intent of what you've done here?

PaxMondo said it very well. Probably better than I would have.

Ciao. JWE