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Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:31:14 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		I got two lucky sub torpedo hits on the Saratoga near Ocean Island. I only remember "critical damage" in the movie but nothing special mentioned on the report, just two hits. I knew she must have limped away to Oz or PH.

Now four days later I get the tracker reporting she has sunk 8/18/42 151,125 near Howland Island (about half way from Ocean Island to PH, no ships of mine anywhere near). Could be possible, the range would fit for 3-4 turns travelled, but I doubt two torpedoes would sink a very big CV. Of course really hoping so .. My PBEM partner stopped playing for several weeks before this turn, could be the reason :P.

I don't find this data on any of the report files. Could it be a plane spotting (I think I have a patrol arc over that hex, cannot check now) the "sinking"? Where does the tracker take this possible false recon info from the game? I have several other ".. is reported to have been sunk" mentions on the reports from this turn, possibly reported by the subs hitting the ships. No recon data on the Saratoga during these four days in the report files or any files, just this one now.

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> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.
Post #: 1
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:42:19 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Its possible, but i wouldnt count on it.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 2
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:48:41 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Probably yes. I'm just wondering and the question is, why does this show up on the tracker? Where in the game is this info found with the source of the info as no report files show this?

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 9/17/2013 10:49:07 PM >

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 3
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:52:08 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		I've had false reports on ships being sunk on the turn they got hit, not twenty some hexes away in the middle of the ocean four turns later :).

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 4
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:53:03 PM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		Did you get any op's losses for carrier fighters/divebombers/torpedo bombers?

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 5
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 10:55:27 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Checked for it of course right away after I saw it. None to mention but I think my opponent would have removed the planes from the CV returning to repair to support his continuing operations near Ocean Island.

Edit: of course this would have left the CV without protection, so unlikely yes (if it was not air-inoperable, in which case he would have not got the planes of the carrier in the first place)

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 9/17/2013 10:56:48 PM >

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Itdepends)
Post #: 6
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 11:01:56 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Probably yes. I'm just wondering and the question is, why does this show up on the tracker? Where in the game is this info found with the source of the info as no report files show this?


Its in the ops file tho i've some times noticed it only on tracker too, i cant tell u why. Other than it might check sunk list vs sunk list for previous turn when loading the turn and notice the difference and then insert the info into the alert list.

I have seen cases of sunk at later dates than hits that wasnt correct, actually it happens alot in my experience.

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/17/2013 11:07:03 PM >

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 7
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 11:07:57 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I look for changes in the in-game list more than in Tracker. Most times, Tracker's sunk ships list is even more wrong than the in-game FOW list.

For the record, I've had Lex sink from a single torpedo hit before. Early war near the Gilberts, AI sub blew up the ammo or something. 30+ sys damage from the hit, plus 40-some major float and fires at mid-60s to start with. Burned for 3 days.

Kind of historical, really.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 8
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 11:10:29 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Sunk by ammo storage explosion I would have believed too. Just did not happen this time :(.

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 9
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 11:16:47 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		BTW what does "critical damage" even mean, when it does not mean heavy damage or even fires etc that is mentioned in the report?

Edit: the manual answers: "Ships may suffer Critical Hits, which cause more damage than normal hits. There is also a
small chance that every Critical Hit endured by a ship will cause its immediate destruction."

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 9/17/2013 11:19:35 PM >

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 10
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/17/2013 11:36:06 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		WW2 CVs were not armored to the same degree as surface heavies. Their main protection against subs was speed and escorts.

A CV is chock full of HE and avgas, not to mention their own fuel. A CV is a floating bomb waiting for ignition. One torpedo in the right spot could sink one; most skippers would fire at least two in a salvo.

USN DC procedures mitigated this risk, but did not eliminate it.

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(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 11
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 12:14:10 AM   
floydg

 

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline 		WitPTraker reads the information from the save file. There is information about the ship being sunk and also some "fog of war" information in there (like that it was falsely reported sunk; that it wasn't sunk, but some other ship of the same class was sunk; and this ship was sunk but another was reported as being sunk). These false reports have some "delay" factor (how long it will be reported falsely). At some point, things clear up and WitPTracker does generate alerts about false reports (and so does the Operations Report).

If WitPTracker shows the ship as sunk but the game doesn't (in the Sunk Ships list), then it could be a problem. Can you check the game?

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 12
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 12:21:12 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Mostly I've noticed that the ship names in Tracker are even "worse" than in-game. I'll see "CL Mauritius reported sunk" in the in-game ops report when I got hits on CL Leander, for example, and Tracker will tell me it was CL Detroit. And sunk by unknown device, according to Tracker. Weird stuff.

(in reply to floydg)
Post #: 13
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 12:35:20 AM   
floydg

 

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline 		Let me know if you have specific examples where the in-game info differs from what WitPTracker shows so that I can check it out.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 14
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 12:47:47 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

If WitPTracker shows the ship as sunk but the game doesn't (in the Sunk Ships list), then it could be a problem. Can you check the game?


I'll check once it's my turn again, maybe tomorrow!

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to floydg)
Post #: 15
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 3:16:39 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		There's no ship ever built that a single "long-lance" couldn't sink (in theory) but most CV's were not particularly hard to sink. Most of them were built on cruiser hulls and were easier even than them to sink because of their mass and volatility along with not that much armor. BB's were always the hardest ships to sink and you shouldn't ever imagine any CV (other than Taiho, and maybe give some consideration for Shokaku/Zuikaku) was in a similar league as far as difficulty to sink. A single 250 lb bomb could sink a CV depending on circumstances; the same is not true for any BB.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 16
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 3:56:51 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

Let me know if you have specific examples where the in-game info differs from what WitPTracker shows so that I can check it out.

With regards to enemy ship sinkings, Tracker is very often one turn ahead of the game. I'm going from memory, but I do not think this applies for ships sunk and acknowledged sunk in the same turn. But for ships confirmed or acknowledged sunk sometime after the turn of the sinking, Tracker is - I think - always one turn ahead of the in-game ships sunk list.

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Post #: 17
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 7:29:49 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There's no ship ever built that a single "long-lance" couldn't sink (in theory) but most CV's were not particularly hard to sink. Most of them were built on cruiser hulls and were easier even than them to sink because of their mass and volatility along with not that much armor. BB's were always the hardest ships to sink and you shouldn't ever imagine any CV (other than Taiho, and maybe give some consideration for Shokaku/Zuikaku) was in a similar league as far as difficulty to sink. A single 250 lb bomb could sink a CV depending on circumstances; the same is not true for any BB.


I've always been impressed with the punishment the Shokaku class took IRL. I'm not convinced the game stats models that, but I guess CA-comparable Belt/Deck armor values is OK.

It's also mind boggling to me why Japan built Unryus and not just more Shokakus. There has to be a rational reason (treaty limits? shortage of materials? what?) - does anybody know?

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 18
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 9:41:46 AM   
bbbf

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Expense.

Where the US settled on Essex as a standard design, the limited Japanese economy could only produce a limited number of a far more limited ship.

Don't go toe to toe with an industrial behemoth.

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Robert Lee

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 19
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 2:12:54 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Not sure if you noticed, but I try to take note of aircraft losses when I suspect a carrier may have been sunk. The daily intelligence report often shows an outsized operational or ground loss when a carrier goes under with its air wings.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to bbbf)
Post #: 20
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 2:59:26 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Not sure if you noticed, but I try to take note of aircraft losses when I suspect a carrier may have been sunk. The daily intelligence report often shows an outsized operational or ground loss when a carrier goes under with its air wings.

Regards,
Feltan


Yes, this was discussed before :).

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 21
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 3:18:03 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Now I got the "reported falsely sunk" in the tracker :(.. And it does not show in the ships sunk list in the game either.

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 22
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 4:41:14 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'd count even less on it now

Sorry Sieppo it lives for another day.

Rasmus

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 23
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 6:38:28 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		I've had ships go on the list, then off the list, then back on the list, only to be found later bombarding a Central Pacific Island. It's not easy even after years to tell with complete accuracy what was sunk in 42.

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Post #: 24
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 9:11:59 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Saratoga is probably OK. Perhaps 2-3 months of yard time so you can take that into account into your plans.



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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 25
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/18/2013 11:46:05 PM   
floydg

 

Posts: 2052
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Now I got the "reported falsely sunk" in the tracker :(.. And it does not show in the ships sunk list in the game either.


Unfortunately, it's working...


(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 26
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/19/2013 4:24:57 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've always been impressed with the punishment the Shokaku class took IRL. I'm not convinced the game stats models that, but I guess CA-comparable Belt/Deck armor values is OK.

It's also mind boggling to me why Japan built Unryus and not just more Shokakus. There has to be a rational reason (treaty limits? shortage of materials? what?) - does anybody know?


At the risk of hijacking this thread, you should look at this 2010 thread which factually discussed Japanese shipbuilding capabilities.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2599283&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2Cshipbuilding�

Pay particular attention to posts:

6, 9, 11, 19, 20 (important), 27 (important), 30,32 and 36.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 27
RE: Tracker says Sara sunk - 9/20/2013 3:20:45 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		The plot thickens .. Now the next turn the tracker again shows the Sara as sunk, now 162,119! And she even shows in the game as sunk!!! No carrier planes lost though :(.

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 28
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