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RE: Games that let you down - 9/25/2013 5:37:21 PM

DSWargamer

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Thanks von Rocko :)

Gee but some of you boys sure are defensive though.

Rude? really? Your kidding right? It's just an opinion for crying out loud.

I think computer AIs in wargaming are the single biggest proof that Matrix and Terminator while fun movies, are not about to happen any time soon. Because thinking is required. Is a car smarter than you because it can go faster than you? Nope, it's a mindless machine and simply mechanically superior to you.

Actually Terminus, I AM special :) (well come on, you had to expect that reply).

I do wonder why I don't stick to board games though. Avoiding buying a shiny computer wargame is frankly harder than passing up chocolate.
I suppose I have conned myself somewhere. Victim of my own brain washing.

The drug/smoking analogy stands though. You lads have allowed yourselves to become dependent.
The comments are right out of cliche denial.
That weird slacker fellow is likely a more serious wargamer to look at some of his comments. If he's playing via Vassal, then he truly wants to really wargame.

I see people referring to immersion and I often wonder, do you really know what immersion actually feels like though?
The furthest I have gone, is to play music in the background I prefer Swing music, and maybe have a film playing, something relevant. If I have an actual human opponent, we try and talk like the relevant personalities from the time. I have my books available while trying something solo. Likely the most I have done, is to mimic in brutal detail the actual D+1 casualties and positions for my board game The Longest Day (rather than just roll the dice and risk needing to set the thing up all over again) as a better way to initiate the game. It took me hours of study to get the counters in the right spots and the right casualty levels though.

Now that's immersion.

I've yet to experience a video game though that can deliver the same deal. The games are limited by their code, there's nothing to fudge or fiddle with.

I feel for most of you complaining about PBEM though. I won't touch the style outside of the Slitherine Group servers.
Either too slow, or just too much trust required (and sadly too hard to ensure).

Right now I have 8 games going at the same time with a local lad with Battle Academy. Oh it's grand I tell you. Half of them I am being totally trashed :) I have a couple though I am doing so well in I almost feel guilty about it :) And the process of sending turns is effortless. It gives me 30 minutes of solid hardcore wargaming if I have at it. And I never agonize over my moves. Just not worth the fretting. You can't win all the time.

I'm torn between showing him some other decent enough computer wargames, or simply taking the chance to finally get some ASL in for real. Life is change eh. Tomorrow he might land a decent job out of town and poof he's gone and I'm back to spending all my time baking again.

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Post #: 61

RE: Games that let you down - 9/25/2013 10:14:09 PM

Qwixt

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Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

And they all play just fine without a dithering idiot artificial intelligence.

Mate every post you make you slag off the AI..please lots here only play AI and are happy to do so..we all know you don't like it and find them no challenge, but personally I do and if games stopped coming with an AI I would stop buying them. However I don't resent the fact games have ways to play multiplayer..honestly mate you know I like you but could you give the "AI is useless" comments a rest? It sort of belittles us and what we like about games and feels like we must be stupid to even warrant wanting to play against an AI.

I agree. I get sick of hearing how unimportant AI is because they can never match humans, and how every game should be played multiplayer, no need for AI. The best part about playing AI is that I don't have to put up with these people.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 62

RE: Games that let you down - 9/25/2013 10:44:02 PM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
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quote:

I agree. I get sick of hearing how unimportant AI is because they can never match humans, and how every game should be played multiplayer, no need for AI. The best part about playing AI is that I don't have to put up with these people.

+1

The thing is I am noticing is that the consoles and the current game innovations remind me a lot of what the PC was like about 20 years ago at the end of the Amiga / ST era (minus the GFX), consoles are all for multiplayer sadly but I must admit having found Ginx TV it is easy to see why the PC is in the minority these days regarding gaming, PC's may be better on the hardware front but to get a good enough standard for gaming can cost four times as much as a console and we still have all the fiddling to make things work and keeping them up to date, consoles are 'one size fits all' regarding software and only marginally behind PC's in specs and they are just plug and go.

Darkspire

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Post #: 63

RE: Games that let you down - 9/25/2013 11:11:02 PM

Terminus

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DS, being "special" is not a good thing here. You may not enjoy AI gaming, but you have no right to denigrate or mock those of us who do. None. Zero. Zilch. It's a douchebag move on your part.

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Post #: 64

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:28:43 AM

Gilmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SapperAstro

Let me see...

Braveheart. My god...

Oblivion. Level 1 eh? Well, at the bottom of dungeon doom you find...an apple! Oh, you are level 20? Make that a magic suit of armour! The level scaling killed the game.

Ultima 8. Super Avatar brothers.

Ultima 9. "But what is an Avatar??!!!" Just die for the love of god!

I am sure there are plenty of others over the years, but they spring to mind first. I am usually pretty good at dodging rubbish since I take my time and wait until the hype dies down to see what people think.

Braveheart. God what a bowser. On most peoples' computers it broke after a certain year. I think someone made an unofficial patch to get it through that bad year, but it really, really sucked. It was never supported by Eidos.

I think some people are getting off topic, though. It said "Let you down". That means it COULD mean what is considered a classic. If they give legitimate reasons for it letting them down, then I see no reason why a classic could not be listed.

GG WBTS

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Post #: 65

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:30:56 AM

Terminus

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Oh, how I wanted to like WBTS. It's so obtuse and difficult to play that's it's just catastrophic.

In my view, we have yet to see a good ACW game. WBTS, FoF, ACW...

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Post #: 66

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:40:17 AM

Gilmer

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I like FoF and AACW and CW2. Not that I know what I'm doing.

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He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

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Post #: 67

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:42:30 AM

Gilmer

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Two things really disappointed me about GGWBTS was

1. Emancipation Proclamation. It seemed very hard to beat on Union side if you couldn't make that come off and it was hard to get the requirements.
3. Limits on garrison/militia. Couldn't hardly keep rebellious areas not rebelling cause I was not allowed to build enough garrisons, it seemed.

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"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

(in reply to Gilmer)

Post #: 68

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 2:06:16 AM

Perturabo

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From my (rather limited) experience with CCMT multi-player, social gaming tends to turn wargaming into something that feels like a game of football/basketball.

And it's too dependent on other people having time, being interested in a specific battle, period of time, etc.
AI is always available.

Then I tend to go for science-fantasy themes and science-fantasy wargaming around here is dominated by Warhammer 40k. Which means spending lots of money on ugly miniatures with grotesque body proportions.

I have to agree that it's annoying when the games are one-sided due to weak AI. The worst thing is that when there's some small oversight (like the AI not using counterbattery fire in BftB) that makes game much easier than it should be.

The most interesting part of wargaming to me is intensification of emotion through simulated sickening acts of depravity.
It would interesting if solo wargames would be more focused on asymmetric warfare - a superior force waging total war on a technologically weaker badly trained force.
With brutal urban warfare including all sort of excesses and depravity inflicted not only upon enemy soldiers but also upon civilians.

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Post #: 69

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 2:32:43 AM

DSWargamer

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And you boys actually wonder why there are almost no girls interested in your hobby :)

It's not because we can't play them, and it is not because we don't play them, but, it is because it involves playing them with you to some extent.

The level of bruising of your little egos is way out of proportion to anything I said.

The AIs suck, prove me wrong? Well at least prove me wrong without comparing them to your own abilities preferably :)

Better take care Perturabo, the lads are not amused by anyone commenting on the negative worth of the AIs in games.

Anyway, I suppose I better leave this one alone. I thought you boys were made of sterner stuff.

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Post #: 70

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 3:25:17 AM

histgamer

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DSW the AI sucks in the Total War series and yet I still enjoy the games and the mods. Sure human opponents will almost always be a bigger challenge but it's not always about the result, often certain games can make the ride more enjoyable even if the outcome is pre-determined. I suppose it depends on you're mindset when you approach a game. Some games I want that challenge to be apparent and difficult at all times, sometimes I just want to watch and enjoy the ride and try different ideas out. Sometimes its more of a competitive sport type game sometimes its not.

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Post #: 71

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 4:42:37 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

And you boys actually wonder why there are almost no girls interested in your hobby :)

It's not because we can't play them, and it is not because we don't play them, but, it is because it involves playing them with you to some extent.

The level of bruising of your little egos is way out of proportion to anything I said.

The AIs suck, prove me wrong? Well at least prove me wrong without comparing them to your own abilities preferably :)

Better take care Perturabo, the lads are not amused by anyone commenting on the negative worth of the AIs in games.

Anyway, I suppose I better leave this one alone. I thought you boys were made of sterner stuff.

Try Galactic Civilizations (The first one and if you can find it with the expansion pack, The Altarian Prophecy) that is still the best AI I have ever seen in a game, set it to the highest level with all the AI races, yes it can be beaten, sometimes, but it is an AI that does not cheat, no extra income or bonuses etc, that is the only game that I have ever played that made me think I was playing against a human and I have been gaming for well over 30+ years. GalCiv II although I played it a fair amount did not seem to gel as well to me although the AI was very competent, if not better than GalCiv, and was written by the same person, Brad Wardell (see link below)

quote:

ORIGINAL: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The most noteworthy feature of Galactic Civilizations is the AI. The computer players are surprisingly realistic and intelligent. However, there is no multiplayer. The game requires the player to play as the humans, but they can be heavily modified. Each computer player has its own artificial intelligence routines, and they each have specific and noticeable personalities.

Also have a read of this, it is from Brad Wardell on the subject of game AI and was made within the last few months, he is the chap that wrote the AI for GalCiv I and II.

For the last few years I have been playing Distant Worlds and the AI in that is functional but suffers from the same thing that 90% of all AI does, above a certain difficulty level the AI is given boosts in money etc whereas the human is crippled with reduced skills, money etc, DW is a great game with a real amount of depth but in reality is more like playing a strategy arcade game, which is sadly the case with most games as you have pointed out, if the AI from GalCiv could be bolted onto DW and the UI tightened up then it really would be the 4x game to own.

As your a sort of emissary for female gamers (and a strategy one at that which is even more amazing) do you really have to wind the males up so vehemently? I know female gamers have a hard time but your attitude and stance is really most unbecoming, chill, relax and try not to get your own back for all the grief that the spotty oiks cause your kind, the guys on here are 98% friendly, except the odd one or two religious nuts that I have bumped into on here who I won't mention.

Darkspire

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Post #: 72

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 9:28:23 AM

Boomer78

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I think it's funny that to this day, even after all these years of gender and race based 're-education' and attempts to get society to see beyond the physical, we are still completely controlled by visualization and race/class/gender stereotypes. That's what's wrong with political correctness. The liberal mindset of the 60s thought you could de-program someone from thought patterns that are themselves intrinsic in the species. It's in our damn DNA to want to compete with/judge/ridicule that which is different than us. Women are no different. They are programmed to have various forms of competition with men, now more than ever because of... *ahem* social equality. But good luck with those female demographics, soap opera fiction, and interior design. First they nerfed women, now they're nerfing men with the same things. Oh, it's so much fun living in the latter days of the Roman empire.

Where was I? Went off the track for a second. But yeah, GalCiv AI was insane. 4x games usually have ramped up AI, which is weird because 4x games is one genre where I like to turtle and build up slowly. In games like Sins of a Solar Empire, MOO, or GalCiv, that's just not possible. Basically, you always need to invent a death star and then throw it at the nearest star systems as soon as possible.

That's one area where AI programmers could use some finesse. Simply increasing the speed at which Athena processes her movements doesn't always equate to an imaginative challenge... just more like an arms race to mutual destruction.

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Post #: 73

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:05:11 PM

Agathosdaimon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Scott and myslef are really trying to improve Tigers Unleashed..we still have a way to go but one day it will be there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alan Sharif

Agree with views on Napoleon 1813 and the Ageod titles, but I must say I really enjoy War in the East. A big let down for me was Tigers Unleashed by HPS. Tried a few times to play it, but just could not get into it at all.

This is great news - i like Tigers Unleashed, but have been have problems with the AI shooting literally their own men and themselves - if these things can be fixed up it will be great again.
Obviously this is AI and yes AI is not like playing against another person - I like both and in fact a good AI that can play out in a historical way is great fun and immersive i find, rather than gamey tactics of another person. I find AI a great challenge in alot of games and perhaps i am no great strategist but even in the John Tiller games, i am yet to win against the AI - and they win through playing the strategies from teh period. No doubt if i were to stick it out i could crack this and it may be much easier, but even then, in say the massive Leipzig 1813 campaign i am really stuck to see how i can hold up against the enormous coalitions armies marching upon my french army.

Perhaps i am not mathematically minded enough or something, but i do find AI in a lot of games quite tough, granted though sometimes this is because the AI is behaving in a superhuman way though that is okay in some games - just some!

did i mention this earlier: JANES ADVANCED STRIKE FIGHTERS - The game from a few years ago - oh my gods it was such an insult to all the Janes games of the 90's - it was really really flat arcade pfaff, not even a cockpit view, just Afterburner style play with unlimited weapons against opponents that simply do nothing - seroiusly, the enemies just did not even respond to the fact i was shooting them down with ease.
- Compare this was Ace Combat Assault Horizon - that is as brilliant an arcade flight sim i can think of. A real thrill and some really tough dogfights - still could not outwit and outlast the final foe -

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Post #: 74

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:20:19 PM

Terminus

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Oh good Thread, don't talk about JASF!

Ace Combat Assault Horizon can't be called a flight sim. It's an arcade game, and a poor one at that.

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Post #: 75

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:27:56 PM

Agathosdaimon

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oh yes, Ace Combat is not a flight sim, but more of a flight sim than JASF sadly. I did find Ace Combat fun and its graphics were quite nice, it was of course very unrealistic but i did also like all the current generation jet fighters in it - such as the latest Russian Stealth jet fighter - that PAK one. It was very interesting too how it was pretty difficult to ever just fire a missile and hit an enemy, usually you had to do this a few times or get in close to lock on to them up close. I havent played HAWX though i hear that one is good as far as the arcade sim/flight action games go

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Post #: 76

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:47:31 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

oh yes, Ace Combat is not a flight sim, but more of a flight sim than JASF sadly.

This is true. Both are arcade games, but JASF had the Jane's name on it, and was therefore terribly disppointing.

I fondly remember the F/A-18E game from several years back that also carried the Jane's name. THAT was a sim.

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Post #: 77

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 12:58:29 PM

Agathosdaimon

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oh yeah - Janes Fa-18 and F-15 games along with Longbow Gold and Longbow 2 are still some of the best flight sims if you can get them running on current systems - FA18 is easier to get running and there are some people who regularly play out missions and put up some very serious detailed AAR's over at Simhq. The LOMAC and Strike FIghters games are okay (i prefer the latter) but Janes was not such a sterile study sim like the Eagle Dynamics games. - Actually that was a let down Lock On Modern Combat and all the DCS games - for me too technical sucked any fun out of them - but then the casual gamer can have a had time with flight sims.

sadly i feel a little let down by March of the Eagles that it only has one grand campaign. For a game that only focuses onthe military side of things, some scenarios based around specific periods like Napoleons Campaigns would have been welcome.

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Post #: 78

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 1:24:59 PM

Terminus

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Same here. It definitely needed more scenarios.

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Post #: 79

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 6:14:44 PM

Mac Linehan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Scott and myslef are really trying to improve Tigers Unleashed..we still have a way to go but one day it will be there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alan Sharif

Agree with views on Napoleon 1813 and the Ageod titles, but I must say I really enjoy War in the East. A big let down for me was Tigers Unleashed by HPS. Tried a few times to play it, but just could not get into it at all.

wodin -

Tigers Unleashed is outstanding; however I tend to play solitaire H2H. My sincere appreciation to you and Scott for your continuing efforts to improve the game - it is well worth it.

Note: I still play Tigers on the Prowl, Panthers in the Shadows, Broken Alliance and Dragons in the Mist...

Mac

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Post #: 80

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 6:53:25 PM

Qwixt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

even after all these years of gender and race based 're-education'

what the heck are you talking about? That whole first paragraph made no sense at all. Read more like some old crazy guy bitter over some changes. Race based re-education? huh?

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Post #: 81

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 7:46:25 PM

Boomer78

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DSW and some other posters were in a bit of an argument earlier and gender came into the discussion... so I added my 2 cents. That sex talk might have derailed the thread a bit, but if you go back a page or so you'll see that I was just adding my views to the mix, rather than starting it.

But perhaps I should keep my mouth shut unless I need another drink.

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Post #: 82

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 10:49:15 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

DS..you know I like you but can you give knocking those who play the AI a rest mate.

git em wodin, I'm with you man, I really hate people who hate on ai playing of computer games that's what they were made for in the first place is to give people some kind of oppenent to play against when "they" want to play not when some yoyo can play one turn a day or week. Just in turn MP is the most stupid idea they ever wasted resources on.

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Post #: 83

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 11:21:27 PM

berto

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I don't crap on PBEM play or any other kind of play. I just don't like it when people crap on my preferred modes of play: AI play; and hotseat solitaire (if the AI is just too insufferably poor, which it not always is).

Getting back to the OP's topic...

Games that let me down: the entire Europa Universalis series. In the final analysis, they're just glorified games of Risk.

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Post #: 84

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 11:25:19 PM

Terminus

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As with all the other Paradox games. Except for Crusader Kings.

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Post #: 85

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 11:29:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Well, it's not exactly fair to say that the game let you down because it wouldn't run on your machine. Your responsibility to make sure it can run on your box before you buy it.

While I'm sure you meant checking the game's requirements versus the box's specs (which of course was done), what you've actually described is a literal catch-22.

But in a similar vein, I ran into a disappointment with another game sold here that made no mention of requiring .Net installed prior to sale. But that wasn't so much the game, as the lack of required info from Matrix and/or the game programmer(s) (I can no longer recall which game it was, as I trashed it years ago now).

quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13
You know you can adjust the scroll speed, right?

I've tried to find ways to slow scroll speed in various old games over the years with no success. How exactly do you do that in Talonsoft's Battle of Britain & Bombing the Reich? Or even SSI's Soldiers at War? (my three biggest offenders)

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Post #: 86

RE: Games that let you down - 9/26/2013 11:50:02 PM

Gilmer

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Look. I think we can all agree that AI is not currently and won't be in the near future, better than human opponents. People play against the AI for convenience.

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He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

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Post #: 87

RE: Games that let you down - 9/27/2013 12:20:24 AM

Terminus

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Or because they don't like other people.

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Post #: 88

RE: Games that let you down - 9/27/2013 12:42:00 AM

Joel Levin

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oh good gracious me.. Will you just stop trying to convince her about AI allready!!????! She doesn't like them, you do.. DONE! Nothing you say will convince the other now stop beating this allready dead horse and get back on topic please! For crying out loud if you want to rant about AIs start your own thread.

Now.. Another game that let me down was simcity 5.. I didn't actually buy and i'm glad i didn't! I love the simcity series so when they anounced the new one and i saw the curved streets and good graphics i was super hyped!! Then came the details.. Small citys.. No terraforming.. The always online requirement.. And the hordes of bugs!! Ugh.... First they ruin my civ5 and then my simcity5! :(

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Post #: 89

RE: Games that let you down - 9/27/2013 3:34:50 AM

balto

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From: Maryland
Status: offline

Europa Universalis is not good and is like Risk????

That is just crazy. EU 4 is an incredible game and is nothing like Risk.

(in reply to Joel Levin)

Post #: 90