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RE: F-22 Loadout

 
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RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/26/2013 7:28:43 PM   
Wiz33

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		I hate it when developers beat around the bushes instead of being honest! I couldn't understand why you guys have such resistance on the idea that the F-22/T-50 would cruise at a noticeable higher speed than other planes laden with external stores. Then I read this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3448328

It took a bunch of messages and peoples quoting all kind of stats to finally get the Devs to admit that the reason all planes fly at 40K is because the game is not currently using individual flight profile for each aircraft/mission type and 40K was a placeholder. But that feature will be implemented in the future.

That got me thinking and I went and look at the DB.3 files for aircraft. Now I understand. There are no individual aircraft flight speed at loiter, cruise or full. The only data in the propulsion file is the top speed of every aircraft. While there might be a different speed set for each aircraft type (helo, prop, jet, etc), all aircraft of a similar type flies at the same speed except at max.

Which bring me back to the first line of this message. The Devs should know that most people that like this kind of game have some knowledge of the subject (not to brag but my name was in the acknowledgement in the Harpoon Battlebook) and knows where to dig for information (including hacking/looking through the database) and that someone would eventually figure out the truth. The truth is that as the current database stands, you cannot give the F-22/T-50 a higher cruising speed (they might if they give it a different category number with their own speed set).

Why didn't they come out and say that. I know that CMANO is a extremely complex game and it's a tremendous achievement for a very small team. With so much work to be done, something may get pushed back for a future update. I would have understand, just like on the other thread. Once the evasion ends and the truth is out. everyone is fine with the 40K placeholder knowing that it will be fixed at some point.

To the developers. I love the game. It gives me 95% of what I think all the earlier games is missing in one aspect or another. I have no problem with some minor features not working 100% yet but please don't be evasive to our questions. If it cannot be done in the game as it stands. Tell us the reason so and we will understand (especially if it's marked for a future improvement).

< Message edited by Wiz33 -- 10/26/2013 7:40:54 PM >

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 31
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/26/2013 11:21:17 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Wiz,

I think Ragnar laid out what he needs and his flexiblity.:

quote:

Thanks for the info There is quite a lot of info available on these planes already so no need to spy. And physical laws still apply, even for 5th gen fighters, which makes guessimating the missing stats possible as well.

I'm a bit curious what the difference is between the info you posted and what I wrote above. Mach 1.0 at 36k ft is ca 570kt so a Mach 0.9 cruise speed is 515-ish knots. In other words what we're discussing here is the 35kt difference, i.e. whether the cruise speed of the F-35 should be 480kt or 515kt?

Since most modern fighters have a 480kt cruise speed in the Command database it would make things easier for the player (and the AI!) to organize strike packages using identical cruise speeds. Something I feel is more important than those 35kt, as per our two decades long experience with Harpoon.

And we do not know if the cruise speed is _exactly_ Mach 0.9. It could be Mach 0.87 which is 495kt, a 15kt difference.

Anyway guys let me know what you think. The good thing about Command is that nothing in carved in stone and we can make whatever changes we want when it makes sense to do so



Thanks!


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Post #: 32
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/27/2013 12:32:22 PM   
Tomcat84

 

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33
There are no individual aircraft flight speed at loiter, cruise or full. The only data in the propulsion file is the top speed of every aircraft. While there might be a different speed set for each aircraft type (helo, prop, jet, etc), all aircraft of a similar type flies at the same speed except at max.



Are you sure?



I'm not saying everything is necessarily peachy, and it's worth looking into fuel burn etc. But I am more inclined to believe the devs are hesitant because there is only statements out there about capabilities that may be ambiguous and are hard to verify.

At the same time, in my opinion, I dont know if an F-35 really is going to cruise faster than my F-16. While normally "Because I can" is a 100% valid argument, in this case I'm not sure. The higher speed and supercruise is great to use in tactical scenarios, but just while cruising it is more common to see various participants in a mission choose the same ingress speed, so that you can talk in timings easily as well.

And in addition, you can already manually set the higher speed if you want. And once waypoint editing comes in thatll be even easier.

This doesnt mean that we dont have to look into fuel consumption because there might certainly be imperfections with that too.

I just dont think the devs are purposely trying to lie or whatever, I think they want the most accurate sim they can get but are hesitant to make changes based on incomplete info and want to be careful to look at it thoroughly before making changes rashly.

Just my two cents. And I think in the end we all want the same thing, for Command to be the best and the most accurate that it can be

(in reply to Wiz33)
Post #: 33
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/27/2013 6:50:30 PM   
Wiz33

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think they have aircraft grouped into types or have a bunch od speed setting sets as all you can find in the Database is the max speed. Any aircraft will fly faster while using less fuel in a clean config. So why is it so hard to understand that there should be a noticeable speed difference between a F-15 fully laden with external stores (even just AAM and tanks) vs a F-22 with internal carriage. Either one of them is going too fast or the other is going too slow. Simple as that.

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Post #: 34
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/27/2013 8:45:13 PM   
Der Zeitgeist


Posts: 280
Joined: 9/5/2013
Status: offline 		I just did a test. Took a F-22 with internals only and an F-15C with tanks and AAMs and put them both at 40k feet and 480 knots. The fuel quantity of course is different with the tanks on the F-15. But the fuel being burned, and the "kg remaining" counting down seems to be the same. The F-22 does not seem to be more fuel efficient at the same speed than the F-15C.

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Post #: 35
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/27/2013 10:08:06 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		SFC for the F-22 is actually higher than for the F-15C ;)


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Post #: 36
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/28/2013 2:52:31 AM   
Wiz33

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		But the F-22 also carries 50% more fuel internally vs the F-15

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Post #: 37
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/29/2013 12:19:54 PM   
deepdive

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		I suggest that there should be one DB entry for an F-22 Clean, no pylons, and one entry for one with pylons. Speed, agility, fuel consumption and RCS should be different. This should apply to other stealth A/C that suffer so big difference in game play.

As it is now, i only load them with internal load.

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Post #: 38
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/29/2013 6:08:36 PM   
Wiz33

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		Or just add a penalty % for each loadout. Which would apply to both the cruise speed and agility rating until the stores are used up or jettisoned (excluing AAM).

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Post #: 39
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/31/2013 8:24:44 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Okay been putting together this one from screenshots from the database editor. It gives some clues about what's going on under the hood.

Real sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this, coding like crazy on this end and doing database updates in between.

Thanks!




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 40
RE: F-22 Loadout - 10/31/2013 9:10:21 PM   
Der Zeitgeist


Posts: 280
Joined: 9/5/2013
Status: offline 		Is there any reason the F-22 doesn't have the flank/afterburner speed setting? It seems as if the "full" setting actually uses the fuel flow of a running afterburner.

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Post #: 41
RE: F-22 Loadout - 11/1/2013 7:13:10 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Yes the reason the AB setting is missing is because the F-22 doesn't use AB for cruise, only acceleration/climb/dogfighting. We should probably expand our propulsion model down the road, but have a bunch of other things we want to do first.

Having a fixed and inefficient 'stealth' jet intake and duct has a nasty effect on the F-22's thrust/SFC. Static military thrust at SL is supposedly 25000lb and SFC is probably (no firm stats) 0.76. Adjusting for altitude and Mach speed (yes, we actually do that in the sim, pretty neat huh!) the military thrust is 10083lb and SFC 1.32 at 36k ft. Public sources suggest that the F-22 can only spend limited time at 100% mil/supercruise and guess we discovered there's a reason for that.

Oh and thrust for the F119-PW-100 when installed in the F-22, at full throttle (650kt) at sea level, is 16764lb. SFC is 1.04. We adjust thrust and SFC depending both on altitude and Mach speed, i.e. Thrust / (1 + Constant * Mach) * Density. Pretty complex stuff.

Thanks!

< Message edited by emsoy -- 11/1/2013 7:27:39 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: F-22 Loadout - 11/1/2013 5:40:55 PM   
Wiz33

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for doing this. dIdn't meant to distract you from the important stuff. ;-P

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 43
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