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BtR Help - 10/23/2013 7:36:45 PM   
Misconduct


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I just got back into the game, seeing the interest build I have to ask if anyone has any tips or help on striking targets?

I started a 1943 allies bombing campaign, I can deal with france just fine however for example I knocked out all the radar towers using typhoons to get a window into cologne, and my B17s just get slaughtered.

Its November 1943 now, my usual losses are 60 night time and 15 daytime bombers (with fighters I usually lose 2 or 3 to 1 luftwaffe plane)

Losses this high strike me a little off, I do escort, I do make sure the radars are down - 96 P38s escorting 150 B-17s to cologne I just lost 17 B-17s and 3 P38s for loss of 2 Fw190s.





< Message edited by Misconduct -- 10/23/2013 7:53:07 PM >


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RE: BtR Help - 10/23/2013 10:42:05 PM   
cohimbra


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I play axis and I can't give you detailed info. But I find very interesting read this great 'guide'
made by kaybayray from allied prespective. Give it a try, very useful info here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2274148

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RE: BtR Help - 10/24/2013 9:36:01 AM   
TaggedYa

 

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I have to disagree with cohimbra about Kaybayray's guide. It is a very good read and the thinking is interesting but it is a theoretical piece on how the game should work not how it does work. There are in fact a very limited number of ways to "choke this dog".

It has been shown through experimentation that the fuel system is completely broken. If you are attacking fuel targets (Oil storage, oil refineries, and syn fuel plants) you are pissing in the wind.

Bombing power has no effect till you have bombed out 2/3rds of them. You aren't going to be able to do that till very late in the game if ever so see above.

Rubber is somewhat easy to take critical. If you take it to 0 and keep it there you can shut down his armaments production for 100 turns. The problem is this only has an effect on land combat and will have none if you haven't been pursuing an arms attack plan from turn one. This is one of the vectors I am pursuing in my game with Nick. The rubber angle will need to wait until you can actually take it to 0. Close does very little.

Steel and Aluminum are like rubber but much harder to take down to 0. Note that if you get them to critical you will be told that his arms or aircraft production (respectively) has been interupted and it will show as 0 to you but it is not 0. It is reduced by the % amount you have the steel or aluminum below critical. If you get it 10% past critical then arms is reduced 10%. Thus like rubber its get it to 0 or don't bother.

Thus, all fuel, steel, alum, rubber, and power targets only are meaningful in the late game when you can reach them all and have the resources to hit them all at once. (I don't expect to ever have this for power.) Any of them will add to your score but that only counts if you expect to end the game before the target can repair below 50. 50 to 75 days depending on the industry.

This leaves you with the targets that actually make something useful. Afac, Efac, Cfac, and Arm. Attack them as soon as you can reach them and keep them knocked out. They may move when damaged more than 60%. Most of them do. If recon 3 days after an attack shows them with less capacity than they had then they are moving and you will never need to attack that spot again. They will show 1 cap when they are finished moving but the site is dead and you can ignore it.

Rail Yards are a special case. Like power you just can't knock out enough fast enough to do any good. However, if you knock out a rail yard the production of factories that are near it are reduced. We don't know exactly how this works but the effect is significant. My current outlook is that if a factory is worth killing then the rail close to it is worth killing. Bomber command can knock out rail yards way past where 8 AF can reach in 43. 40% reduction is better than no reduction.

Personal fobial: I never bomb a radar station. Absolutely never against the AI. Only for a very specific reason against a human an I can't off the top of my head come up with a time I found a reason. Against the AI you want it to know what you are doing and where. It makes it predictable and a predictable enemy is easy to wipe out. Also, as stupid as it is the AI is smart enough to turn the radar you attack often into flack traps. You can never knock out and keep out enough radar to matter so save your planes and pilots. Make your path for the night bombers with elint aircraft.

As to ground combat, I am 22 days into my game with Nick, and it seems to be working well. I can dislodge an enemy by heavy attack that disrupts him. I can reduce his combat value by killing his tanks and artillery. If you attack a lot you grind down his AA. I am pretty sure you can't win the game by a ground strategy because the final defensive lines can not be breached. However, if I am at the alps in june of 44 life will be hard in Germany.

However, the supply line strategy does not work. You can knock out every rail in Italy and every unit will get full supplies. This means you have to concentrate on a few units and keep them knocked down by killing there tanks and artillery faster than they can get new ones. (3 tanks, 3 Art, and 9 inf per day) When a particular unit is being a problem you can knock its organization down with heavy bomber attack and then the ground units will dislodge it.

Non dicam amplius in consilio

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RE: BtR Help - 10/24/2013 10:58:13 AM   
TaggedYa

 

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As to your losses. I don't think losing 17 B17s on a trip to Koln is a slaughter. If I could do that consistently it would be a very short game. However, 96 p38s is not an escort on a trip to Koln. It is a start at a middle escort if you split it one inbound and one outbound. Then you need 96 P47s to join just before the coast on the inbound leg and at least 48 p47s for the outbound leg. They need to join at the limit of internal fuel where they can escort all the way home. Even at this you are going to leave your bombers bare for a little while. You also need one group of p38Js to cover the extreme end. They should join before the p38Hs turn for home.

My real question is what are you going to Koln for?

I am presuming that you are against the AI. If so the basic strategy is simple. Destroy his air force so he can't oppose you when you decide to go for a game ending score. With that as a given we can look at tactics to do so.

First: the reason you send planes across the channel is to pick a fight with the bad guy. That's it. Nothing else at all. You bomb to give a semi-intelligent opponent a reason to fight, a result worse that the losses if he chooses not to fight. The AI is not semi-intelligent. It isn't even close. It is going to fight. It will commit all its resources to the first reasonable size attack you send. So give it a fight to commit to.

Figure out the limit of p47 escort range. You want your fight inside this range because at the start it is by far your best fighter. Now send a raid out this far into an area he has a lot of fighters based in. Put a lot of escorts in this first leg but stagger them. Delay a group 15 min a group 20 a group 25 (never delay a p47D-6 group more than 29 min on the inbound leg, it is just wasting gas). When the raid gets out to the escort limit for p47s then turn around and return to the coast. Send more escorts for this leg. Take fighters from 2 tack air and 11 group and have them fly sweeps up the bomber track (which should be a big furball by the time the bombers get back towards the coast). The sweeps should all have a target of an occupied airfield. If they don't engage someone on the way in they will strafe the target field them camp it. When you get back to the coast turn again and head back up the same track. Somewhere out there is an airfield with a bunch of planes on it that have been flying for the last 2 hours and are refueling and rearming. Bomb it. (you have to plan ahead for this part) Then go home. A light escort is good here but a heavy one is a waste.

The whole concept is to get as much of your air force as possible into a small space with part of his air force. Attack his airfields as much as possible but time things to catch his planes on the ground and if possible refueling. Those Tiffys you are wasting attacking radar will rip him a new AssHole if they hit his airfield 20 minuets after he lands from a big fight. Remember Tiffys are like Texas Rangers "one Riot one Ranger" only send one Squadron at a time. (Remember to avoid the fir-ball with them or they will jettison their bombs and join the fight)


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RE: BtR Help - 10/24/2013 1:17:50 PM   
Misconduct


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One of the problems ive been having was staggering groups of escorts, for some reason I add the fighter escorts and I set the time for like 15 minutes - it shows up 0. I can make anther group 20 minutes - it ends up zero.

I noticed there are some bugs, and ive been working around them, but as for now I will try the airfield approach - I plan non sending a massive recon of airfields I know he has been hiding on.

Will see what kind of results I may get.

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RE: BtR Help - 10/24/2013 2:53:26 PM   
cohimbra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
...for some reason I add the fighter escorts and I set the time for like 15 minutes -
it shows up 0. I can make anther group 20 minutes - it ends up zero.

Well, just to be sure: you add fighters escort and then set the delay?
Setting the delay and then add fighters escort it work for me.

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RE: BtR Help - 10/24/2013 5:09:37 PM   
Misconduct


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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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Well here's my first all out attack on Airfields, I am targeting any AF with fighters that don't have Luftwaffe flak batteries. I did no bombing sorties as my crews are horribly low in moral right now.
This is one of the first times I've had a 2:1 on the luftwaffe. I started the day with 0600 Typhoon single squadron raids on Axis airfields, at 0800 I did fighter sweeps (except my 38s found a new flak battery) I followed up at 1100 with Mosquitos which ripped up a Fw190 field but got caught by a CAP. Overall 65 to 119 is pleasing for me.

Cohimbra, I will try your idea with the delay and see if it works.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 10/24/2013 5:14:07 PM >


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RE: BtR Help - 10/25/2013 2:11:28 AM   
TaggedYa

 

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You want to do your bombing raids towards the end of the combat day. (that might be 9 o'clock but after the other stuff). This is because of aircraft vulnerability on the ground. A plane ready to fly or refueling is much more vulnerable to a strafe attack than one in maintenance or waiting for maintenance. Bomb attacks tend to hit the ones that strafing misses. (like the damaged ones from earlier strafing)

Start your day with fighter sweeps that go past a random number of occupied bases (1 or 2) and hit the next. The first raids will get him into the air and into a fight. They will not actually reach the target. Enemy further away will try to intercept but won't catch up and will get tired and incur maintenance for naught. Keep it up in a pattern throughout the day. Once his planes are on the ground refueling your sweeps will actually strafe and will kill or damage the stuff refueling. Then you want the Tiffys to hit. They will kill some of the damaged planes and will damage the maintenance facilities which slows down or stops repairs.

You can't hit just the fields with no AA. If he has a lot of low level AA at a field then make it the target of your B17 dance. Bomb them from 27,500 which puts you above his 88s. Use enough bombers to turn the field red. A red field does no maintenance. In a couple of turns at most the units there will move and you don't have to worry about the heavy flak there. If you have good recon (shows 2nd day or less and was taken from 9k or less) You will know almost exactly what flak is there. Numbers for heavy AA are number of tubes. Numbers for light AA are combined effect.

If he has a lot of light AA and NO heavy AA you can use Medium Bombers at low altitude (9k to 12k) with devastating effect. Just be a little careful. A couple of heavy AA you didn't notice can really hurt here.

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RE: BtR Help - 10/25/2013 2:17:13 AM   
TaggedYa

 

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@Misconduct

If you would like to have comments and suggestions as you go you might want to start an AAR thread for your game. Post your planning and your thinking as you plan with screen shots of the map and raid list. This will let us figure out what the timing is and be able to make more effective suggestions.

Then post what happened and why you think it was different than what you expected. If done well these are fun to read and you will get lots of help when you are not understanding something.


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RE: BtR Help - 11/24/2013 2:19:11 PM   
Misconduct


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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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Well I am back, my GPU on my video card blew up, I ended up losing my Saved games so I started a new campaign - WOW what a difference it makes focusing on the airfields FIRST and not radars... I did buy a few books on the 8th airforce and 2nd Tactical Airforce to get a better idea on how the bombing of europe went.

Right now I have Typhoons bombing airfields where FW190s and 109 bases are (seems 110s and 410s are much tougher targets and harder to destroy). Followed by Spitfires doing Fighter sweeps.

I do 3 bombing missions, now that I figured out how to use ESCORT - my problem was before if I didn't put "delay" first then there was no delay in which the fighters turned back almost instantly before even half way to the target.
I managed 3 B-17s lost for 10 german fighters and 1 P47... major improvement over losing 24 bombers and 9 fighters for only 3 german fighters shot down.

So far I am getting 2:1 odds on the Luftwaffe, pretty good fighting over enemy territory, I haven't ventured past Cologne yet - then again I only have 5 Squadrons of P47s which I use exclusively as escort fighters for now.

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