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Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 2:25:07 AM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		I have noticed that most scenarios with WP helos tend to be heavily unbalanced. As NATO forces in the 80's were notorious for their lack of an efficient ADs, trusting more on their air superiority, in FPC WP Hinds command the battlefield, picking up at will the armour and the useless Vulcans (the latter seem to be absolutely ineffective against air threats). This rapidly turns the play quite frustrating for the NATO player and more often than not it seems wiser to let down that particular scenario and just pick up another one.
I won't argue about the reality of such unbalance, since fortunately WW3 wasn't fought in that way, but occurs in another way right now and nobody knows for sure, but I do know that if a scenario seems too loaded toward one side, it lacks interest. IMO helicopters are tricky assets and should be avoided in most scenarios or else they should be very carefully pondered.

_____________________________

Panta Astiazarán
Post #: 1
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 2:43:39 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		All I can tell you is there are no scenarios in this game that have not been playtested and shown for NATO to be able to at least fight the scenario to a draw.

A fact of life would have been Soviet helicopters. Keeping them out of scenarios would be like saying there are too many Soviet tanks. I know they were there but we need to restrict them so we can win.

Be glad you aren't in an M1A1 out there on the side of hill having to learn to survive in the first 10 minutes of the war. Here at least you get a chance to learn to live and fight another day.

It is a sad fact that the WP has a much better, more realistic air defense system than NATO. As you say, NATO figured it would have air superiority, something I obviously don't agree with.

These scenarios can be won. It's just not easy. If it was too easy I would be hearing complaints that the scenarios were no good.
Instead, you are telling me they are too hard. I played them until I could beat them. Then I gave them to you guys to play with.

That's the best I can do.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 2
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 2:56:12 AM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		They are hard and that is a good thing. As NATO player you just have to accept some unavoidable losses to HIND's. Use cover and concentrate air defense on key spots. Bradleys are also useful in taking down hinds...

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MrLongleg

Life is too short to drink bad wine ;-)

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Post #: 3
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 2:58:10 AM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...


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Panta Astiazarán

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 4
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 3:07:34 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...



ROFL!!

You're right it's not fun watching the Hinds work you over. It is gratifying when you kill some of them and drive them off though.

Some of the scenarios are assault scenarios, some are pursuit scenarios, others are meeting engagements. Not all of them are fast and fluid. Several have times in them when the combat slows down. Normally an entire scenario is not like that.

If you find a scenario that isn't to your taste that's okay. While, I would be ecstatic if you guys thought every scenario was the best one you've ever played, I'm more of a realist than that. I understand that not every one of these scenarios will be for everybody.

It's okay if you don't like some of them. They are all so different, IMO, it would be hard for a gamer to like them all.

There are varying numbers of Hinds in the scenarios. In some cases they are like a blanket. In others just a slight presence. There are even some scenarios with no helicopters in them.

If Hinds are not for you, try some of the scenarios with not so many in them.

Another option is to play with them on your side as the WP player!

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/1/2013 3:09:42 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 5
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 3:27:54 AM   
Rocko911

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		So you are telling me that the Apache AH-64 with a OH-58D Kiowa Warrior doing recon just below tree level, house or hill couldn't take out numerous Hinds, lmao

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 6
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 3:36:43 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Helos can and do shoot each other down with cannon and the occasional AAM (if the unit carries them - none do in Red Storm, but the Polish Army has some on a helo - next expansion ).

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Rocko911)
Post #: 7
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 3:42:56 AM   
Rocko911

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Oh Capn Darwin, you have now made me start a fund for the next expansion.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 10:16:44 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Helos can and do shoot each other down with cannon and the occasional AAM (if the unit carries them - none do in Red Storm, but the Polish Army has some on a helo - next expansion ).


quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

Oh Capn Darwin, you have now made me start a fund for the next expansion.



OT:
I just have to ask the question, can't resist the urge. When is the next expansion to be released and how much will cost?

No I am not serious, but I know the questions will be raised, I just wanted to be the first.


Mat


_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 9
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 12:11:51 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		You guy's are killing me. As soon as we have a discussed and firmed up plan in house and then discussed with Matrix we will start to give you guys an idea of time frame. I can say it will be a 2014 item so you can budget better for Christmas and other year end holidays.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 10
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 12:35:36 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Added to my 2014 Christmas wish list. 😝😜


Sorry I had to ask the questions, but as you can see the dev team have and will make a lot of people happy this year.
All the hard work has a certain amount of gratification.
Thanks a lot.

Mat

P.s no hurries concerning the expansion packs. ( notice packs in plural)😜

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 11
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 3:49:26 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		I've only just started playing the game, so forgive my ignorance....but I assume the real killer for Helo's would be hostile fixed wing aircraft. I assume there are some scenario's where NATO gets some fixed wing assets (in fact, the one I just played was one).... wouldn't those be an effective counter-measure vs the Hinds?

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 12
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 4:07:37 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Grumpy in one of MR answers to all our questions he mentioned this, the assumption is NATO has been surprised at the speed of the attack.WP has plotted and planned their offensive well. As runways can't be moved, WP know where they have to strike to take out NATO's airpower. All airfields have been bombed and either badly damaged or completly taken out.

NATO do not control the airspace where fixed airwing is concerned. Maybe the British have a few Harrier's available, I am not quite sure, helos are available.

In other words look after your AA assets.

Mat

< Message edited by british exil -- 11/1/2013 4:10:52 PM >

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 13
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 4:14:15 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		I am not saying that I am against the use of helicopters in the game, they add the third axis to the battlefield, actually, but:

1-Sometimes there are just too many of them, in the dawn scenario NATO is attacked by a full regiment, 26 Hinds, without much to fire back, since the Vulcans don't seem to fire at the choppers, even at close quarters (one hex). Aren't the Vulcans a little underrated?
2-On the other hand, non-firing, dug-in Vulcans in woods terrain are almost immediately located and targetted by the choppers or arty.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

What I perhaps failed to express is that staring at the screen for some 20 minutes just watching how the enemy helos pick up your units one by one and your AD do little to avoid it isn't too interesting. I guess that perhaps it should be better to start after the enemy gunship regiment digs a hole in your defences and then begin your land warfare from there on. FPC excels in depicting land warfare, but the air/ground, helos/ground aspect of the game isn't a the same level and turns are long...



ROFL!!

You're right it's not fun watching the Hinds work you over. It is gratifying when you kill some of them and drive them off though.

Some of the scenarios are assault scenarios, some are pursuit scenarios, others are meeting engagements. Not all of them are fast and fluid. Several have times in them when the combat slows down. Normally an entire scenario is not like that.

If you find a scenario that isn't to your taste that's okay. While, I would be ecstatic if you guys thought every scenario was the best one you've ever played, I'm more of a realist than that. I understand that not every one of these scenarios will be for everybody.

It's okay if you don't like some of them. They are all so different, IMO, it would be hard for a gamer to like them all.

There are varying numbers of Hinds in the scenarios. In some cases they are like a blanket. In others just a slight presence. There are even some scenarios with no helicopters in them.

If Hinds are not for you, try some of the scenarios with not so many in them.

Another option is to play with them on your side as the WP player!

Good Hunting.

MR




< Message edited by Panta -- 11/1/2013 4:15:31 PM >

_____________________________

Panta Astiazarán

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 14
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 4:38:22 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		If that's happening, then yes, NATO's AAA threat is understated. We'll take a look at it.

That's a different issue than you just don't like Hinds!

Shoot, unless I play Soviets, I don't like Hinds either!!!!

Thanks.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 15
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 5:48:27 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Well, yes, I confess! Hinds are BAD, Hinds are MEAN and they are UGLY! Only Rambo knew how to deal with those @*! beasts!

< Message edited by Panta -- 11/1/2013 5:49:14 PM >

_____________________________

Panta Astiazarán

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 16
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 6:16:55 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Just did a test (tried to): I began Dawn's scenario in hotseat mode, placed a couple of Vulcan platoons in the middle of the map and then, as a WP player, tried to close in with a Hind wing (deliberate). In five hours the choppers, even keeping their orders, just didn't move. And the Vulcans, placed out of sight dug-in in woods, were detected, though not identified. Do they have radars?

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Panta Astiazarán

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Post #: 17
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 6:18:57 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline 		You will be happy to know that we are adding a "Rambo" unit in a future patch

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Post #: 18
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:05:21 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Just watched 2 Apache's take on 4 Hinds. The face off took place at 2km.

Final Score:

Apache's - 2
Hind's - 1

Great watching them duel it out!

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/1/2013 11:06:15 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to cbelva)
Post #: 19
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:09:40 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Give your Apache's assault orders and they will go to hold. That will make them much more aggressive.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 20
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:28:29 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Yeah, Apaches, those jokers get all the best of it, and what about my frigging Vulcans?

_____________________________

Panta Astiazarán

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 21
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:34:33 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Did you have them in a Hold disposition?

To answer someone's earlier question, no, the Vulcan's do not have radar.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/1/2013 11:35:20 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 22
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:37:42 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Yes, holding, grabbing what they can...
And no radar, so, how are they located if they don't shoot and are well hidden/dug-in?

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Panta Astiazarán

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Post #: 23
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/1/2013 11:45:32 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here is a duel between an Apache unit and Soviet ADA sections.

The Apache is dealing Death and Destruction!!

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 24
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 12:27:16 AM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Why are they "Retiring" or "Rearming"? Scared, maybe?

_____________________________

Panta Astiazarán

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Post #: 25
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 12:48:08 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I always though NATO having air superiority was laughable, I always expected a neutral air battle space myself. Neither side having a good advantage. We trained to kill Russian AA weapon systems first with command control 2nd. Usually the M1's took out command tracks, us Brads took out AA weapons. Once they all gone and the Russians started deploying etc, we hauled butt for the next ridge line. As my name says, I was in 2/2 ACR, so we would fight from Border and if I remember right, the MLR was like 50+ miles to the west on a major river.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 26
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 12:51:22 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here is an Apache rampage! Everything you see in this screen shot that is destroyed was done by this Apache section.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 27
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 1:00:58 AM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		What you say is very interesting, specially taking into account NATO doctrine in those times, the Air-Land Battle which, IIRC, was replaced in the 90's by maneuver warfare. The US lacked ADs, just a few Stingers here and there, correct me if I am wrong, for no to speak of the infamous Blowpipe Brits and Canadians had...

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Panta Astiazarán

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Post #: 28
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 1:10:40 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		We had air defense assets but not to the same extent as the Warsaw pact. During my time, we actually planned to pop Hinds with the M1A1 when we could get a bead on them. That was not standard tactic but more of a troop level talk at Graf or Hoen and such. We figured a Silver Bullet would do them fine.

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 29
RE: Helos and scenario balance - 11/2/2013 1:14:05 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here is their score. They cleared a swath around them as they ruled the battlefield.





Did I mention they had to resupply once?

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/2/2013 1:16:11 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 30
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