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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules

 
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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 5:19:37 AM   
Neilster


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But there were truckloads of Me-109Ks and FW-190s lying around idle at the end of the war for want of pilots and fuel. German aircraft production went completely bananas in 1944. How was this the case if it was being restricted by a lack of steel and by 1944, steel was in very short supply?

Can you provide me with an electronic reference to back up your position on this specific point?

Cheers, Neilster


< Message edited by Neilster -- 11/15/2013 6:24:56 AM >

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 5:22:04 AM   
paulderynck


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Truckloads but no trucks, apparently.

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 6:00:26 AM   
brian brian

 

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Production decisions are a huge part of the game of course. WiF players can't get every possible counter on to the board, and they have to make the same choices the Germans did.

re: U-Boats. I think the Germans lost over 700 U-boats in WWII. So I think they built plenty, but more U-Boats wouldn't have really changed much, as they lost the technological war at sea. Perhaps another 50 or 100 boats in the critical winter of 1943 might have changed things in the Atlantic....but the hundreds more U-Boats available in 1944 (when they were out of steel and fuel?) would have made no difference as over 200 were sunk that year while accomplishing little. U-Boat production was dispersed skillfully and successfully.

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 7:36:04 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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As I noted, Speer lied through his teeth. A lot of the supposed 'production' in 1944-45 was, in fact, repair of damaged/destroyed airframes.

Then, of course, there's the sad fact that, except in computer wargames (well, most of them, anyway, Grigsby's WaW:AWD takes a stab at it), factories set to produce aircraft and aero engines can't be retasked overnight to produce, say, tanks.

If you read the 'Wages of Destruction' and "Cry Havoc' you will note, again and again, that all sides had to make long lead time decisions about what would be needed down the track, as it took time to gear up production for whatever decision you did make. Some of these decisions turned out to be, with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, suboptimal.

Some examples -

* The Allies found that they could not pull off major simultaneous amphibious invasions in both the ETO and the PTO because they simply didn't have enough of the various sorts of landing ships and landing craft ... and, in fact, had to physically transfer them between the two theaters.

It's also, for example, why Anvil-Dragoon was some weeks after D-Day and much smaller and why Anzio and Salerno were so limited, and why there weren't more such attempts.

Sure, the allies could have simply built more 'phibs, but that would have taken time, and diversion of resources, and they ultimately decided that they could live with it.

* The US decided to produce large quantities of a decidedly inferior tank - the Grant - for the simple reason that the piddling little turret on said tank was the largest single piece casting that they could produce at the time.

* The Brits never upgunned the excellently armoured Matilda Mk II ... because the size of the turret was limited by the size of the turret ring in the hill and the size turret that they could fit couldn't take anything bigger than their 2 pdr gun.

* The reason that the Kriegsmarine was so far behind the 8-ball when the war broke out in all types of combatants was because they were allocated money by the gummint, but money didn't buy skilled manpower, factories, or, more importantly, raw materials, and the Kriegsmarine got whatever scraps weren't wanted by the Luftwaffe and the Heer.

Another reason was something as simple as slipways. There simply weren't enough, even if you allowed as how civilian ones could be used for vessels like Submarines and, for any vessel with any armour plate, they couldn't be. Even for Destroyers and subs they were suboptimal because of the substantial differences between warship and merchant construction. There had been enough ... during and before WW1 ... but the Versailles treaty banned most new naval construction and limited what was allowed, so most were either closed down/scrapped or converted to civilian use.

Armour for ships? All the specialised (and they had no other use other than rolling armour plate) plants for producing armour belt closed down except for one ... and it had limited capacity, hence the small number of major surface combatants ... even if they had the slips available, they didn't have the capacity to produce the plate needed ... and Fat Herman wasn't letting them get hold of any, either,

Subs are a particular bad example. Not only was initial production limited for the reasons noted, but they had lost a whole generation of skilled submariners because of Versailles ... the training of crews was a real bottleneck (it took about a year to train a crew up to combat readiness for their first deployment) ... and when they found ways of getting round the slipway bottleneck by producing sections of the Type XXIIIs inland and railing them to simple assembly plants they found that the lack of pre-production testing done, and the lack of experience of the manufacturers, led to major problems ... it was not uncommon for the different pressure hull sections to be found to be as much as 12" out of true, radius wise. You *could* weld this gap closed - but this was a *pressure* hull, mind, and it meant that the new boats often had a safe dive depth less than that of the older ones, and nowhere near their design specs.

Sure, they were getting decent ones coming off the production lines ... by late 1944 ... but none of them entered service, because they never got past the workup stage.

* Most of the SPGs the Germans produced were, in fact, remanufactured from clapped out tank hulls with a new superstructure, and yet are counted as new production.

* A perennial problem for the Germans was spare parts - Hitler insisted that lots and lots and lots of new *tanks* roll off the production lines ... but wasn't in the slightest interested in spares, so few were actually produced! It was not uncommon for more tanks to be OOS because of breakdown than because of enemy action and, as the tides of war shifted, the common practise of using broken down tanks to strip for parts to keep a few operational became less and less viable as any tank unable to move became a loss to the advancing Russians or Western Allies.

* An aircraft example - the Me262 wasn't, as received wisdom would suggest, delayed by Hitler's decision to have it turned into a Fighter Bomber ... but by the simple fact that its engines were high tech crap. The initial pre-production versions self-destructed, for example, after 30 *minutes* run time. By the time they decided to put her into service, they had them up to 25 hours run time, after which they had to be removed, torn down and basically rebuilt. Even then, there's a reason the engines were under the wings ... it was so that *when* they shed turbine blades, which could happen *at any time*, even in a brand new engine ... the wings would help protect the pilot,

The reason for this? The turbine blades needed tungsten to withstand the high operating temps ... but Germany had had to cease production of AP penetrators in 1942 because they were depleting the pre-war stockpiles, and there was nowhere else Germany could get the metal from. They eventually used Chromium to get the reliability (!) up to where it ended, but that was the best they could do.

There's lots more things like that.

There's a good line from John Birmingham's 'Axis of Time' trilogy, uttered by Prince Harry, IIRC, when the Germans stage Sealion - and it fails miserably - "Dictators are great at getting **** done, but they aren't that great at deciding whether **** should be done in the first place" (more or less) ... and this sums up the problems facing the Nazis.

While they weren't quite as bad as the IJN and the IJA, the Luftwaffe, Heer, SS and Kriegsmarine were all semi-independent fiefdoms competing for attention and resources ... worse, even *within* the four services, there were competing fiefdoms vying for the resources and attention the larger body had ... and it was complete shemozzle. So, while you can say that you, the player, have replaced Hitler, you're still saddled with all the idiots that made the whole Nazi state a giant cock up.

Phil

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 7:41:17 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Actually, the U-Boat war was a giant cock-up, too.

As for production being dispersed successfully ... well, maybe.

Skillfully? Not so much.

Read Clay Blair's "The Hunters/The Hunted" for some of the horrific problems that the Germans had getting their late war U-Boats working ... things like pressure hull sections being as much as 12" out of true on the radius, which meant they couldn't even dive as deep as the older models, let alone reach their nominal dive depth. Or the fact that the welding of the hull sections has to be done in one continuous weld ... while the assembly buildings were major targets for allied airpower ... or you had much the same problems.

Phil

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 7:47:25 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Did you know that, for Barbarossa, the Germans fielded over 100 different makes and models, Czech, Polish, French, Dutch, Belgian, Danish etc., of truck? The logistical demands of supplying the relevant spare parts was a nightmare and, as you might guess, led to very low serviceability rates which, in turn, slowed down the advance of the Panzers and would have been one (of many!) important reasons (and not the most important, either) that they only reached sight of Moscow just as winter began.

Or know that a US or Commonwealth Leg Infantry division often had more trucks on their TO&E than a German Panzer or PanzerGrenadier division? Or that Western Allied tanks had something like a 85% serviceability rating, while German tanks had something like 60% and Russian ones something like 30% (there's a reason one whole Guards Mechanised Corps was equipped with Shermans!).

Phil

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 8:37:47 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

* An aircraft example - the Me262 wasn't, as received wisdom would suggest, delayed by Hitler's decision to have it turned into a Fighter Bomber ... but by the simple fact that its engines were high tech crap. The initial pre-production versions self-destructed, for example, after 30 *minutes* run time. By the time they decided to put her into service, they had them up to 25 hours run time, after which they had to be removed, torn down and basically rebuilt. Even then, there's a reason the engines were under the wings ... it was so that *when* they shed turbine blades, which could happen *at any time*, even in a brand new engine ... the wings would help protect the pilot,


Do you have a source for this? The Me 262 was laid out in 1939/40. At that stage it was known that the early turbojet powerplants would be low on power, and hence it was designed to have two engines, but it wasn't known that they would be extremely unreliable. Putting axial flow engines under the wings is logical in that there is space for them, it lowers the centre-of-gravity and eases maintenance. The Gloster Meteor had engines embedded in the wing structure because they were bulkier centrifugal flow turbojets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

The reason for this? The turbine blades needed tungsten to withstand the high operating temps...


Tungsten for high temperature alloys? The prototype Junkers Jumo 004s were constructed using nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum alloys, but that was unacceptable for production engines. Do you have a source for tungsten being used in a high temperature alloy on German WW2 turbojets?

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 10:53:47 AM   
wodin


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There where two Type XXIIIs that managed to get out of dock...many where destroyed during bombing raids.. neither saw action..one is at the bottom of the sea just of the coast of Ireland. Was a program on the telly box last week all about German Subs and it was following some divers who where matching up wrecks to the actual sub number. The sub was HUGE. The wreck is more or less in one piece.

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 11:16:16 AM   
Neilster


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Type XXIIIs were small coastal boats. Do you guys actually mean the Type XXI?

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 11:28:31 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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For the high temperature alloys?

Boyne, Walter J - "Goering's Big Bungle", Air Force Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 11
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2008/November%202008/1108bungle.aspx

Pavelec, Sterling Michael - "The Jet Race and the Second World War"

http://www.aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/me262.html

For the reliability duration?

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/technical/technical_3.htm

For the underwing placement? See the Boyne article, which notes that the original plans were for the engines to be installed in the wing roots, and the later placement was, according to what is stated there, because the engines increased considerably in weight ... I can't, offhand, find the reference for them being moved there for safety reasons ... the closest, offhand is ...

http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/USAFMuseum/WWII/MesserschmittMe262/MesserschmittME262.htm

"If a Junkers Jumo 004 turbojet lost a compressor blade, it almost invariably led to a catastrophic cascading failure with the turbine shedding more and more blades in a domino effect until the engine literally blew apart."

Since I cannot find the exact book I read it in at the moment, I cannot be 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that the statement was as I said ... though one could argue, and since I don't have the book to check its source, that maybe they were rationalizing after the fact having seen how the engines could catastrophically cascade fail even when new.

Phil



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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 11:29:54 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Sorry, I meant the large streamlined Elektro-Atlantik Boats ... the type XXIs ... my apologies for the extra IIs.

Phil

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 11:44:24 AM   
76mm


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Guys, while I guess I started all of the talk about resources in the game, would it be possible to put detailed discussions about tungsten, aircraft engineering, etc. in a different thread?

I think it would be helpful if we could keep this thread focussed on optional rules, including resources, but in a more general way!

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 12:04:37 PM   
Joseignacio


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I am a veteran WIF player, although in MWIF I am as new as you are.

My opinion is that unless you want to simplify because you are just starting, you should use most of the Optionals.

My experience is that most WIF player play withmost of the optionals. Of course some wont like petrol rules, others divisions, etc..

But 90% agree that 90% of the optional rules is a good election (although they "only" coincide in like 70%).

I am not at home to tell you which ones I have made my default and which not exactly (will do, this afternoon), but I check all of them except "HQ movement", "In the presence of the enemy" (this is not popular but brings a new flavour to the game, I can tell you), and very, very few more.

One that you NEED to have UNCHECKED (don't remember if included in the game the option to AVOID it) is NO SURPRISE ZOCS.

If there are no ZOCS it's almost impossible for USSR to survive, the game gets badly unbalanced.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/15/2013 1:07:53 PM >

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 12:42:17 PM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

For the high temperature alloys?

Boyne, Walter J - "Goering's Big Bungle", Air Force Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 11
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2008/November%202008/1108bungle.aspx

Pavelec, Sterling Michael - "The Jet Race and the Second World War"

http://www.aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/me262.html

For the reliability duration?

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/technical/technical_3.htm

For the underwing placement? See the Boyne article, which notes that the original plans were for the engines to be installed in the wing roots, and the later placement was, according to what is stated there, because the engines increased considerably in weight ... I can't, offhand, find the reference for them being moved there for safety reasons ... the closest, offhand is ...

http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/USAFMuseum/WWII/MesserschmittMe262/MesserschmittME262.htm

"If a Junkers Jumo 004 turbojet lost a compressor blade, it almost invariably led to a catastrophic cascading failure with the turbine shedding more and more blades in a domino effect until the engine literally blew apart."

Since I cannot find the exact book I read it in at the moment, I cannot be 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that the statement was as I said ... though one could argue, and since I don't have the book to check its source, that maybe they were rationalizing after the fact having seen how the engines could catastrophically cascade fail even when new.

Phil



The reliability thing is very well known and I never mentioned it.

The Boyne (who I generally rate) article mentions tungsten but doesn't specifically say that it was necessary for high temperature alloys but rather that it was one of the metals that Germany was short of.

The second article doesn't mention tungsten at all. I overhauled military gas turbines (including historical ones) for a career and I've never heard of tungsten being a high temperature alloying agent. Nickel, cobalt and molybdenum; yes, but not tungsten. In, short, I think you're wrong and you haven't been able to produce any evidence to the contrary.

Any chance of addressing my request above for actual evidence that German aircraft production was limited by a shortage of steel?

Given that steel made up a very small component of WW2 aircraft (especially the fighters that Germany was mainly producing by the end of 1943), Germany was building heaps of stuff like AA guns that were much more steel intensive and that German aircraft production increased massively in 1944, I think you're wrong about that too. The Germans were so short of aluminium that the Allies stopped using aluminium drop-tanks because Jerry had schoolkids scouring the countryside for them so they could be recycled. Yet you specifically claim "...the Germans were simply unable to produce as many aircraft as they wanted because, largely, of their shortage of steel, not because of a shortage of aluminium..."

BTW, unless you use the quote mechanism, no-one knows who you are addressing.

Cheers, Neilster


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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 12:43:41 PM   
Neilster


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If someone else wants to start another thread about the the debate I'm having then fine. I can't be bothered. I was challenged and I will defend myself.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 1:08:03 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey


quote:

ORIGINAL: konevau

I don't like pilots, for precisely the reasons you say, and I've been searching in vain for another player who shares this opinion. Oil though is indispensable as far as I'm concerned, as it introduces a strategic dimension that makes the game immensely more realistic.


The oil rule does not make the game more realistic in the same way that Call of Duty is not AT ALL a realistic portrayal of combat even though a player's mind may feel it is more realistic than Doom.



Being an economist (and BA bachelor and Master in Finance), I have been saying this for years about the Victoria ( a Paradox game) with no results, people love to feel that something is real and if you spread a gloss of sth., that looks like macro-economy, they all will say you are just jealous or hate Paradox if you criticize that... They prefer to believe that sh*t! that's all.

As for the Oil, I tend to believe it is reasonably well representing the need of it in WWII but I cannot really argue cause I am no expert in WWII.

As for Wolfram, I am sorry to say that the blind eye that the would-be Western allies paid on Spain's being the exercise camp for German aviation and Italian infantry and armors, while only the brave volunteers of International Brigades and Russian tanks (sold) were allowed to fight for Democracy, gave them bad karma. All along the WWII Franco gave/sold Hitler as much Wolfram (Tungsten) as he could, unfortunately skimming the mines in my own native land, for nuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_in_World_War_II

quote:

Resources & trade

Despite lacking cash, oil and other supplies, Francoist Spain was able to supply some essential materials to Germany. There were a series of secret war-time trade agreements between the two countries.

The principal resource was wolfram (or tungsten) ore from German-owned mines in Spain. Wolfram was essential to Germany for its advanced precision engineering and therefore for armament production. Despite Allied attempts to buy all available supplies, which rocketed in price, and diplomatic efforts to influence Spain, supplies to Germany continued until August 1944. Payment for wolfram was effectively set against the Spanish debt to Germany. Other minerals included iron ore, zinc, lead and mercury.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/15/2013 2:36:41 PM >

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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 2:57:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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I read somewhere that Spain also sold their first minerals to the Allies in 1943, around the same time that the Portugese finally allowed the Allies to base in the Azores.

We all know the Germans lost the war, and were unable to deploy the frequently amazing results of their R&D on time and in quantities to make any difference. They were losing, increasingly lost access to key raw materials, and lost control of the air and sea, which became a feedback loop on everything they did. A micro-trade with Japan kept some unique items flowing in through Bordeaux; perhaps a Plan Z strategy could have increased this trickle. Their cutting edge designs didn't make it into combat that much, but their workhorse early designs certainly did, and lost the battles through the second half of the war. How did they lose 200+ U-Boats in 1944 if they were running out of steel? Perhaps they ran out of U-Boats because the Allies sank them as fast as they left port. Discussing their troubles welding U-Boats together towards the end is beside the point. They had already lost, for many reasons. They were doomed on basic economic facts to end up with less weapons than the Allies, fighting the USA; and most students of the war understand this whether any random thing Speer said was a lie, and the game shows you this.

World in Flames does simulate a lot of this, but on a basic, meta-level, and that is why so many people play the game. There are simple gearing limits to production, and you can't cherry pick the new aircraft designs that you already know will work best. Churchill was as constrained as Hitler in this stuff, which is a prime lesson of the game. Hitler was one war leader who insisted on fighting the war with somewhat of an economic viewpoint, ordering the defense of mineral supplies long past when his generals told him it's time to go, though ego, pride, and probably insanity were part of that equation as well.


Anyway, one dramatic optional in the game is not ready yet, though it is little used - No ZoC on surprise. That can definitely help a new Axis player along. I think it will be a key piece of any 'difficulty' setting for an AI game.

I do think it has some basis in reality but would be more appropriate to mess around with when all division level, "Master Edition" World in Flames comes out some day, so the defenders have more chance to form a line, for better or worse. I've never used it but I think WiF's tactical land combat system gives the Panzers more than enough chance to succeed at Blitzkrieg. More nuanced Vichy Rules that I hope to see computerized someday are a better solution to get the stunning historical results of May & June, 1940, though that should also come with some pressures on the Germans to back off from a Total War footing as a result, in my opinion, as even Hitler couldn't just ignore keeping the Home Front happy that early in the war.


I think in MWiF 1.01 I am most looking forward to seeing how the Additional Chinese Cities option plays out one way or another, and whether Nationalist Chinese Attack Weakness is enough to sometimes see an historical feeling result in China on the new maps. I mentioned that many players don't play China that well. By that I mean they don't double-stack the Chinese on the big spacious map (I have already played with it some by printing screen-shots of the CWiF map and taping them together), and let the Japanese gobble them up Pac-Man style one at a time, always choosing to gamble on the Assault table in hopes of causing Japanese casualties, rather than with hopes of preserving their own limited forces by choosing the Blitz table. Admittedly that works better once the IJN has to use up more of the Japanese action limits as the Pacific War gets going. That basic choice in every combat makes for a fascinating game of basic strategy that Sun Tzu and ancient Go players would appreciate. So a good Japanese strategy is to deploy a few Mechanized divisions so they can get to pick the table and kill Chinese units on the Assault table (and crack river lines), when the Chinese are occasionally forced to fight in open terrain, unless the Chinese are already letting their units be Assaulted back to the Force Pools one at a time.

Players also tend to defend too far forward at times, rather than sensibly retreating and taking refuge in all of China's mountain ranges - always trying to form a solid line when the Japanese don't have the mass to ooze through it very well, as compared to fronts in Europe, where the armies are big and the land is small, until the funnel of the Eastern Front really opens up past Moscow and Rostov. Perhaps Attack Weakness plays into that, limiting the Chinese on swatting down Japanese flanking divisional raids. And China has the option of divisional flanking raids too. This new map is like the Wild West for everyone, methinks, and it's a new game to play.


And I completely agree with Jose that the majority of players use a majority of the optionals. Most of them add a good amount of historical flavor for a low amount of additional complexity. They are fun, try them.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 11/15/2013 8:02:51 PM >

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Post #: 77
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 6:53:50 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... "In the presence of the enemy" (this is not popular but brings a new flavour to the game, I can tell you),

I would say it is not popular only with some, but the issue divides with the same intensity of feeling as there was between Catholics and Protestants during the Reformation.

There was a poll (still open though quite old) on the Yahoo list with 110 respondents of whom 57% used it all the time and 9% some of the time. So only a third of the players are in the "not popular" camp IMO.


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RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 10:21:28 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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I dunno about you, but I think that this statement from Boyne is indicative ...

"Unfortunately for the engine, Germany was in desperate straits for such materials as chromium, molybdenum, nickel, titanium, and tungsten. The new advanced submarine construction program had a higher priority than jet engines."


As for Steel shortages affecting aircraft production, well, the paragraph from which the above quote is taken makes the point that the high quality steel that would have boosted even the chromium, molybdenum, nickel, titanium and tungstenless engine design's operational life wasn't available ... because it was allocated elsewhere.

Maybe it means something different to you, but to me it means that what I said about steel shortages affecting aircraft production is supported.

There are bits and pieces scattered throughout Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" as well, feel free to peruse it ...

You can also check out ...

http://historum.com/blogs/guaporense/994-economics-world-war-two.html

... where, slightly over halfway down, it says ...

"So, even though Germany conquered territories with a comparable GDP and a greater population than the United States, the economies of the occupied regions collapsed, leaving Germany with significantly smaller resources than the United States. This had important effects in the war: Germany's supplies of iron and steel were not enough to meet the demands, Germany needed to increase her steel supply to levels around 45-50 million tons to have a comfortable supply to satisfy all war needs ..."

[I guess aircraft production qualifies as part of "all war needs" ... YMMV]

Phil

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(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 79
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/15/2013 11:45:23 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

@aspqrz...Cool. I asked for evidence and you have provided it.

But I have a question. If the Luftwaffe had first use of materials, fighters were desperately needed to stave off the ruinous bombing of the Reich and, as you say, aircraft production was being hampered by a lack of steel, why were the Germans still using steel for other stuff?

Edit to add the question

Cheers, Neilster



Because they wanted a two pronged approach, I guess ... and, I suspect, it was the type(s) of steel that the Luftwaffe needed that was the problem.

ISTR figures showed that, in the 1939-43, the Heer got about 40-50% more iron/steel than the Luftwaffe (about 3.5 million tons compared to around 1.7-1.8 in the peak year, from memory) and the Kriegsmarine got around 50% of what the Luftwaffe did.

Now, that's for *everything* ... not just the actual tanks, guns, planes and ships, but for the production facilities and machine tools as well ... at least those specifically for the military (which is noted for things like the mass Aero engine factory, the mass Steel plant, and the U-Boat dispersal program), I presume that dual use stuff was counted in the civilian totals.

Now, by 1944 it was, evidently, seen as vital to shift resources to the U-Boat program ... one presumes in order to reduce shipping of war materiel and military units from the US to Europe, and raw materials (including POL) from around the world to the UK ... something that benefitted Germany as a whole, whereas the Luftwaffe was less effective in doing that. And, of course, despite all the hoo-hah made about it, largely after the war, the Me-262 program was *not* initially, or even later, as high a priority program within the Luftwaffe as conventional fighters ...

It's all very well to ask why the Germans (or Allies) did what they did ... sometimes it's obvious, other times what's 'obvious' is clouded by 20:20 hindsight, and yet others its a case of 'who the hell knows?' ... a lot of the 'go' decisions for a wide variety of weapons programs, especially within the Luftwaffe sphere, were made by small cliques who managed to get the ear of a senior Nazi 'patron' who could over-ride the decisions of the Lufwaffe experts/decision makers. The Me-262 was such a program, but so was the Type XXI/U-Boat production dispersal program, and, by 1943/44 the Luftwaffe's status had dropped enough so that opponents of Goering et al were able to force through the reallocation of resources, in this case largely (but never entirely) steel, to the U-Boats.

Why was this done?

Why was it needed to be done?

Because the Germans were short of suitable steels and could not simply throw it at everything like the Allies did (which is a slight exaggeration - but the Allies, while they faced limits because of steel production as well, as the production figures show, those 'limits' were, even for the UK, much much higher than they were for Germany).

In other words, more U-Boats, less fighters ... or Tanks ... or whatever.

Simple, really.

Phil


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(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 80
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 12:50:49 AM   
Neilster


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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

I dunno about you, but I think that this statement from Boyne is indicative ...

"Unfortunately for the engine, Germany was in desperate straits for such materials as chromium, molybdenum, nickel, titanium, and tungsten. The new advanced submarine construction program had a higher priority than jet engines."



You can highlight a word in red all you like. He only says Germany was short of certain materials and doesn't say that tungsten is necessary for high temperature engine components, when you have singled it out for special mention when you claim, "The turbine blades needed tungsten to withstand the high operating temps...". The other source you provided doesn't provide any evidence to support this either. I spent years working in this specific field and unless you provide me with some actual evidence, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
As for Steel shortages affecting aircraft production, well, the paragraph from which the above quote is taken makes the point that the high quality steel that would have boosted even the chromium, molybdenum, nickel, titanium and tungstenless engine design's operational life wasn't available ... because it was allocated elsewhere.

No. Hot-end components require specific alloys. I don't think you know anything about gas turbines and I do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
Maybe it means something different to you, but to me it means that what I said about steel shortages affecting aircraft production is supported.


No it doesn't, because I think it's nonsense. You very specifically claimed "...the Germans were simply unable to produce as many aircraft as they wanted because, largely, of their shortage of steel, not because of a shortage of aluminium..." and haven't been able to back that up. There's been a lot of vague hand-waving and you've talked about everything else but you have not been able to produce a skerrick of evidence to support that extraordinary claim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
You can also check out ...

http://historum.com/blogs/guaporense/994-economics-world-war-two.html

... where, slightly over halfway down, it says ...

"So, even though Germany conquered territories with a comparable GDP and a greater population than the United States, the economies of the occupied regions collapsed, leaving Germany with significantly smaller resources than the United States. This had important effects in the war: Germany's supplies of iron and steel were not enough to meet the demands, Germany needed to increase her steel supply to levels around 45-50 million tons to have a comfortable supply to satisfy all war needs ..."

[I guess aircraft production qualifies as part of "all war needs" ... YMMV]

Phil


Not really, because as I have pointed out, there's very little steel required to produce a WW2 aeroplane.

You clearly know a lot about WW2 and its logistical aspects but I think you've stumbled into my area of expertise, overreached and are now too proud to admit it.

I'll get back to this. It's a beautiful day here and I'm off to Beerfest

Cheers, Neilster


(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 81
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 1:24:24 AM   
bo

 

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A beer fest in Tasmania Your just trying to make centuur feel bad.

Bo

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 82
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 3:37:22 AM   
Symple

 

Posts: 172
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I really appreciate this discussion. So many great options. Glad to hear the discussion about them.
What does Option 49: Hitler's War do?

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 83
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 3:45:05 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
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He says specifically that engines were affected by, amongst other things, lack of tungsten. Specifically. He isn't the only source that says it, either ... just the one I found handy-like on the Web. Maybe they're all wrong, maybe they're all talking through their a***s - I've provided the evidence, so might I suggest that you need to show why these sources are wrong.

Seriously. It won't be the first time I've run across sources that make claims that turn out to be wrong - but you have to take some things in good faith until you have evidence otherwise. (For example, lots of sources - even modern/recent ones, refer to the number of Motor Vehicles in a WW2 US Infantry Division and give an incorrect number - way back, some clueless/careless historian added up all the 'vehicles' in the ID's TO&E, which included trailers ... so ever since lots of sources have quoted that number rather than actually doing the hard yards and checking the TO&E directly ... is this a similar case? I have no idea. But it IS repeated in a number of sources, so I accept it at face value for the moment.

So, please provide the specific evidence relating specifically to the Jumo-004 engines (the 004b, IIRC, in the Me262, showing that these sources have got it wrong.

Experience with turbines other than Jumo-004bs may or may not be relevant, I, personally, don't know ... so you'll have to work harder to convince me if that is the sole basis for your misgivings.

Phil


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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 84
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 4:50:17 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
aspqrz, neilster,

I tried asking politely, but it didn't work, so let me try again:
Quit hijacking this thread, please take it elsewhere.

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 85
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 5:16:23 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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I can't be bothered arguing with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I've spent years studying and working on military gas turbines, including the very specific metallurgy involved.

I notice you've been very selective in what you've responded to as well. People can read the exchange above and make their own judgements.

Anyway, Beerfest was great. Lots of local, Australian and international brews. A good number of ciders too, as Tasmania is a traditional apple growing area. Down by the waterfront with the sun blazing. And I whooped my neighbour at chess on the big board. Most enjoyable all round.

Cheers, Neilster



(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 86
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 9:06:53 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I can't be bothered arguing with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I've spent years studying and working on military gas turbines, including the very specific metallurgy involved.

I notice you've been very selective in what you've responded to as well. People can read the exchange above and make their own judgements.


Ah, argumentum ab auctoritate, a textbook example.

Indeed, people will read your refusal to answer some simple questions and make judgements accordingly.

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 87
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 9:20:11 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
I've just got better things to do and people don't want the thread taken over.

Cheers, Neilster


(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 88
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 1:27:30 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
I don't think Option 49 - Hitler's War - is ready yet in MWiF? That's OK for me, because I'm not ready for it either. Even after playing a ftf game per year most years for a long time now, and plenty of solitaire games, I know very little about that option and it remains quite mysterious. On it's face it looks like such a radical departure from a regular game, and each game is such an investment in time, that I haven't been up for trying it, yet. I don't think the net result is a major change, but it hard for me to wrap thoughts around how a game with it might go.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 89
RE: Let's Talk Optional Rules - 11/16/2013 3:30:27 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

A beer fest in Tasmania Your just trying to make centuur feel bad.

Bo


Why should I feel bad that others are going to a beerfest and I'm not this weekend? Have fun. I only hope that they don't drink Budweiser there...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 90
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