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[disre....err simply ignore] - 11/28/2013 9:05:13 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		I hope that is ok, took this over from the main forum to seperate from the generic DBB release thread:



quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Hmm looks like I will have to ship more resources to the HI to compensate for the extra LI.


16050 more per day if my math is right. At game start, in DBB-C, Japan has an overall shortfall of 20500 resources per day. At game start that is means Japan runs out of resources on Honshu in ~190 days. After that LI and HI shut down on Honshu. That is only 7/42.

Conquering more in China does not help much as Chinese resource production is eaten up by Chinese LI.

Future conquests of the SRA, PI, etc (essentially historical conquests) still leave Japan short by 14100/day.
So in the first seven months of the war Japan has to find ways to conquer more areas in India, Northern Oz, etc that will give them another 14100 res/day. That is over 1400 resource factories. I do not see that much on the map unless a game is so mismatched that China and India or maybe Oz are conquered in their entirety.
Please tell me if my math is wrong! This is one instance where I want to be wrong.




I had the same thoughts, didn't do any calculation but my first thought really was where are all the ressources coming from when LI is supposed to produce the supply that refineries were producing earlier? My second thought then was if there would be more ressources to feed the LI all around, what compensates the huge need of fuel and ships to carry all those resources around?

I have seen quite a number of games being decided in late 43 because the IJ was running out of supply, completely. Now I really like it seeing supply being more problematic than in WITP but what gives seeing your PBEM ending in 43 because the IJ player runs out of supplies earlier than real life. And I don't mean the games where a crazy IJ player changes over two thousand aircraft factories and wonders why he is short of 2 mio+ supplies.



I see it the same way as Mike and CT.

JWE, is there a chance you could recheck the LI ammount and implementation logic? Does not diminish the great work on DBB but this looks like a showstopper.
Until this is adressed or the issue ruled out our DBB-C game start is on hold.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/28/2013 2:53:54 PM >

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 11:29:21 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Just for completeness sake:

By adding LI to compensate for switching of refinery supply production, supply production is increased again but only in direct proportion to ressources consumption increase. So instead of removing the issue it just moves it to another layer of the production chain.

Also, Castor Troy is absolutely correct that the problem does not simply end by adding ressource in proportion to the added LI without considering exactly where to add it. The reduced transport capacity is increasingly strained by the increased ressource demand, so even if more is available and is not present at the HI, there is still the problem of shipping available for transport and fuel consumption of that shipping.

If OTOH the ressources missing are simply added to the Home Islands, the question arises if this could reduce the necessity of transport, which is an incremental part of the game, even more DBB-C.

I wonder if the solution could be a reduction/retweaking of LI/refinery ressource consumption per supply, but I am sure you DBB guys got a better idea anyway.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/28/2013 12:30:29 PM >

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 1:52:19 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Just noticed your post in the general discussion thread JWE. Disregard this one pls. :)

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 3:25:28 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Just how long do you expect me to ignore this thread?

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 3:45:10 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Its like a car accident.. I just can't look away.

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 6:22:25 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Just how long do you expect me to ignore this thread?


Well...lets see....current time is 1722zulu, so how about until at...or remotely around...NEVER??!??



quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Its like a car accident.. I just can't look away.


Just in case this proves helpful to a non-native English speaker in a very unlikely far away future:
Is there an non-vulgar, non-agressive, replacement word for "disregard" and its ugly little twin "ignore" that might prevent stereotypic ractions to the above or a similarily unpleasent situation?

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/28/2013 7:23:14 PM >

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 6:26:55 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		But, hey, I had already ignored it for like 3 hours! That felt like forever.

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/28/2013 6:30:40 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		This is the WitP forums. We don´t care for feelings! Stay strong!

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RE: DBB: LI Compensation Might Autocollapse IJ Industry - 11/29/2013 1:26:40 AM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Oh gawds....here we go again

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RE: [disre....err simply ignore] - 11/29/2013 2:26:49 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		On the order of 20,000 tons a day is woefully tiny in terms of Japanese requirements IRL.
That amounts to 4 ships with 5,000 tons, or 5 ships with 4,000 tons, per day. Not much of
a shortfall IMHO.

Unless the scenario gutted the stock locations in Japan which have hundreds of Recource Centers,
it isn't (like the manual claims) "an accurate simulation of the Japanese economy." Take them
out - and need to replace them with shipped in resources - and you start to get close.

Having done that, I find that Japan is forced to form multiple convoys every day from multiple
locations - just to keep the economy running. And to do an efficiency analysis - it is more efficient
to ship from Korea and Northern China and Eastern China and Manchukuo than from distant points. And
indeed 2/3 of the tonnage of wartime imports is coal - from those very places. The greatest part
of the remaining 1/3 is iron ore, copper ore, food and other products from them. So a focus on nearby
locations is correct. But it isn't enough - so you need to have ships returning to Japan (no matter
what they took outbound) returning with resources as well.

The oil situation is the same, but worse. You get a little oil on Japan (more than stock in fact, as
some fields are missing) - and a little from Sakhalin (unless the Allies are smart and harass you with
subs out of Alaska) - and somewhat more from Korea/Manchukuo - but vastly not enough to be both running
industry and building stockpiles for later in the war. You simply must capture oilfields in the SRA
and ship it back to Japan - and to other places with refineries that need it.

As used to be said of the board game War in the Pacific, your main job is to route convoys. Sometimes you
also get to fight battles.

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