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Problem with formation EMCONs

 
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Problem with formation EMCONs - 11/30/2013 5:02:41 PM   
rytech

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/16/2013
Status: offline 		Hi,

Playing this on Give Them Hell, build 469.

I've noticed that whenever own-side ships come under missile attack, every ship/task group on the player side will break EMCON and light off its sensors - radar, sonar, OECM, everything. That does seem reasonable when its the one group being attacked, but every single group of ships does so - which makes trying to hide your carrier 600km away kinda hard.

(eg. in the scenario, the convoy was being attacked by Backfire-launched Kitchens and light off its sensors - but the group of frigates to the north, as well as my carrier group in the Med, did so as well while I was trying to keep them under EMCON.)

As well, once the missile attack is actually over, I can't turn off the radars on any of the taskgroups. I select each, go to the Sensors button, and unclick Radars, but every time they instantly turn back on regardless.

Wondering if this is intentional or a bug..
Post #: 1
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 11/30/2013 10:14:19 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm sure its part of our defensive routine but I do wonder when its okay to actually revert? Days later sure but right after? Sure you want to do that?

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 12:16:52 AM   
miller7219

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		Well, I have to say that I'm not a fan of the AI turning on every radar it can when a contact is made. I'd like to have the choice. Some may like it just the way it is. Could be solved with a player preference setting?

The only time I think radars should but auto-activated is when the AI engages in AAW and needs the radar/directors for engagement. For active sonar, only when a torpedo contact is detected. Other than that I would prefer them to not go on auto and for the player to have a button on the new contact pop window that allows the them to say yes or no to activate radars for the detecting unit or the entire group the detecting unit is grouped with. Or something along those lines.

I've seen this issue brought up previously and it leads to unwanted ESM detection danger through no fault of the player.

Bottom line is I just think the AI needs to be eased up a but in some areas and strengthened in others. Right now it seems over zealous in areas it should be deferring to the player (or at least giving the player options) and not intelligent enough in areas it should be smarter and more helpful to the player (instead of potentially harmful). All part of the evolution of Command finally finding the balance between AI and player control....and it's identity. It will take a while, but seems like progress is being made.

(in reply to rytech)
Post #: 3
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 12:25:31 AM   
rytech

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/16/2013
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sure its part of our defensive routine but I do wonder when its okay to actually revert? Days later sure but right after? Sure you want to do that?

Thanks!

Mike


That's reasonable - I'd figure you want to turn them off and clear the datum as soon as possible if you want to avoid further attack.

At the very least it should be something that is player-configurable to their preferences.

Maybe also include a mechanism where if the group concludes based on a radar track of the incoming vampires that it isnt being targeted they wont light off radars - that'd avoid ships placed elsewhere lighting off their radars unnecessarily.

< Message edited by rytech -- 12/1/2013 1:27:49 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 9:07:30 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219
All part of the evolution of Command finally finding the balance between AI and player control....and it's identity. It will take a while, but seems like progress is being made.


The only games that have "found their identity" are the ones not being any further developed by their creators... and it's up to anyone to determine if that's a good thing

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 12/1/2013 10:08:50 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 12:12:28 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline 		I realize that it's part of CMANO defensive routines, but I also don't like the auto lighting up of all emitters. Against the AI it's probably not a big deal, but if multiplayer takes off I can already imagine the tactic of launching a single missile at an emitting pickett to quickly complete the ESM picture of the rest of that units' formation.

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Post #: 6
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 12:46:06 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

I realize that it's part of CMANO defensive routines, but I also don't like the auto lighting up of all emitters. Against the AI it's probably not a big deal, but if multiplayer takes off I can already imagine the tactic of launching a single missile at an emitting pickett to quickly complete the ESM picture of the rest of that units' formation.


Need to update our manual to let people know that behavior I think so that detach those pickets and don't get the behavior. Fixed on the people side.

We have to be careful about chasing edge cases. Your point is valid and there is a clear chance of it happening but once player's learn what it is they'll stop doing it.

Mike




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Post #: 7
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 1:17:01 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Need to update our manual to let people know that behavior I think so that detach those pickets and don't get the behavior. Fixed on the people side.

We have to be careful about chasing edge cases. Your point is valid and there is a clear chance of it happening but once player's learn what it is they'll stop doing it.

Mike





Fair point. And I guess given the flexibility of the CMANO ref point system, I can actually keep a detached picket "in formation" without it actually being grouped. Cool!

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Post #: 8
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 1:22:00 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah but as always we'll see how things shake out.

Talking to us about how stupid our design decisions are is one thing but showing us is another entirely

Mike

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Post #: 9
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 3:59:50 PM   
TMP95

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 11/29/2013
Status: offline 		How does one go about making sure this doesn't happen? What preferences do we need to turn "off" exactly?

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Post #: 10
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 4:10:19 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Don't group a picket that is many miles away from your main body of the formation if you don't want the entire formation to light off when a missile is detected by the picket. Instead use missions with reference points that are relative to the group.

Mike

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Post #: 11
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/1/2013 8:05:20 PM   
rytech

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/16/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Don't group a picket that is many miles away from your main body of the formation if you don't want the entire formation to light off when a missile is detected by the picket. Instead use missions with reference points that are relative to the group.

Mike


That does sound fair, but what I'm wondering is why multiple groups (not ships within one group) will light up if one is attacked, and if that is something that needs to be fixed or not.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 12
RE: Problem with formation EMCONs - 12/4/2013 2:29:03 AM   
rytech

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/16/2013
Status: offline 		So, thankfully, I think I've managed to find a workaround.

Create a RefPoint, place it very close to the group lead of the formation, then set it to Fixed relative to the formation head.
Create a Support Mission and add the whole formation to it (label it "________ EMCON" or something like that if you feel so inclined)

You can then toggle on/off the sensors using the Mission Doctrine from the Mission Editor whenever you want to turn off the radars/sonars post-missile attack.

Note that on the right-side panel, it will still show your group as radars active - however, if you individually check the ships, their radars will be off.

Maybe look if that is a bug to be fixed....

< Message edited by rytech -- 12/4/2013 3:29:25 AM >

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