Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Sea Mines

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Civil War II >> Sea Mines Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Sea Mines - 12/6/2013 5:28:23 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		In my current game my opponent just played a sea mines card in Hampton Roads and severely damaged my fleet. The more I play AACW2 the more things I find extremely disconcerting when it comes to design decisions made. I can think of no possible historical justification for these cards, I can only assume the magic bad weather cards were simply renamed to Sea Mines, still nothing other than magic I kill your fleet cards, but a better name perhaps. Can anyone point to any historical justification for the CSA breaking a naval blockade during the war with the use of mines?

Imagine the scenario if you will. The Union is sitting far out to sea on blockade duty well out of the range of land based guns. So the CSA builds a bunch of mines rolls them up to the beach and shoves them into the water. Then like homing torpedoes seen on modern day subs, they drift miles out to sea and slam into 5 of 8 blockading vessels causing major damage.

The damage caused by this one card is going to cost hundreds of dollars worth of replacement chits to repair. Imagine if all his cards cause this level of damage, that’s probably close to half a year’s worth of income going to naval repairs because the game gives players magic fireball spells… I mean super advanced homing sea mine cards. And I assume the cards become available to play again after some time, so these cards will probably cost thousands of dollars in damage during the game.

Jim





Attachment (1)

_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: Sea Mines - 12/6/2013 5:31:31 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		That particular card, IMO, is a bit overpowered. It's also free for the CSA player, so you can expect to see several attempts.

The Union just got alot of help though, so maybe let's play it out. That just may be an area where the South can get you back, as you are taking their cities and trade ports

_____________________________


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 2
RE: Sea Mines - 12/6/2013 6:18:28 PM   
Ol Choctaw

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Never heard of “Damn the torpedoes! Go ahead!”

They were in use from 62 onward. They accounted for sinking more than a few ships as well as damaging them. Some were contact mines and others command detonated. They also had land torpedoes. The Union attitude was just about what your is.

I have used them half a dozen times in the game and never managed to get a hit. It is a mighty slim 50-50 chance and they only last one turn.

But your criticism is unjust. You were just very unlucky.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 3
RE: Sea Mines - 12/6/2013 6:25:37 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ol Choctaw
Never heard of “Damn the torpedoes! Go ahead!”


The battle of mobile bay was not an example of the CSA breaking a Union blockade. It was an intentional move on the part of the Union to sail into the mines. So sure allow mines to be purchased like a unit to be permanently placed in closed waters or rivers (not in ocean regions), but allowing players to shoot at fleets with homing torpedoes has no basis in reality.

Jim





Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Ol Choctaw)
Post #: 4
RE: Sea Mines - 12/7/2013 2:44:20 PM   
Queeg


Posts: 495
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline 		According to this source, three times as many Union ships were sunk by sea mines as by artillery fire.

http://www.history.navy.mil/museums/keyport/The_History_of_the_Sea_Mine.pdf

The event at least makes the naval game a challenge.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 5
RE: Sea Mines - 12/7/2013 4:48:48 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		To be honest I don't even know what to do with my [Union] naval units. And I am serious.

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Queeg)
Post #: 6
RE: Sea Mines - 12/7/2013 5:14:31 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

According to this source, three times as many Union ships were sunk by sea mines as by artillery fire.

http://www.history.navy.mil/museums/keyport/The_History_of_the_Sea_Mine.pdf

The event at least makes the naval game a challenge.


I have no problem allowing players to mine harbors and restricted waterways as was done historically, in fact I think that should be a big part of the naval game. The notion that players can shoot at enemy fleets sitting out at sea on blockade duty is pure fantasy and really detracts from immersion. There is just no historical justification for it. Ships that were sunk or damaged by mines in the war sailed into enemy waters, they were not sitting out at sea in the open ocean.

Mines during this period were extremely primitive being not much more than an artillery shell strapped to a wooden board for floatation. They were anchored in shallow waters so they’d float just under the surface.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Queeg)
Post #: 7
RE: Sea Mines - 12/7/2013 5:50:35 PM   
Ol Choctaw

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Ships on blockade are not static or far at sea if it is a brown water blockade.

They have to patrol to set up an effective blockade.

If no CSA held regions front on your sea region, I can see a reason for complaint.

It would be better if the RGD could be placed and remain in play until it was triggered but over time a lot of places would be mined.


< Message edited by Ol Choctaw -- 12/7/2013 7:36:43 PM >

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 8
RE: Sea Mines - 12/7/2013 6:52:55 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Union ships did not enter shallow waters during blockades, they would have eventually succumbed to massive attrition due to mines had they done so. They remained in deep water and the technology did not exist to effectively mine deep water during the civil war.

A better solution for mines would be to allow players to mine river or land port regions. Then any attempt to land troops at or enter a mined port region would trigger an automatic mine attack (no percentage chance). River regions would also trigger an automatic attack, but mined river regions would be subject to attrition rolls each turn that could possibly see the mines be removed from the map. You could also make a case for mining enclose bay regions, so they would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Ol Choctaw)
Post #: 9
RE: Sea Mines - 12/16/2013 8:04:08 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		I seem to have lost a link to a really great US War Col. thesis on this subject. The refs alone were great. just google naval mine and follow up it is out there. I have seen some of the original sources years ago....no access now. The US Navy kept a record of every mine strike for the entire war.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 10
RE: Sea Mines - 12/16/2013 8:26:02 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		your price to replay the damage is just false. It was just cohesion. Just go to port and recover cohesion. where is the big budget loss?



(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 11
RE: Sea Mines - 12/16/2013 8:41:07 AM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		Shouldn't mines be something that can make an invasion abort as well ? a bit like a fleet blocking a river crossing : You want to land at one of the Mississippi mouth forts but get mines force a roll that you lose and the landing is aborted, losing valuable time.

_____________________________

Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 12
RE: Sea Mines - 12/16/2013 8:44:54 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses

your price to replay the damage is just false. It was just cohesion. Just go to port and recover cohesion. where is the big budget loss?





All 5 ships that were hit took 50% casualties. Chances are 2 or 3 replacement chits (its random) will be burned rebuilding those heavy ship hits and they cost about 50 money each.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with mines being in game and doing very heavy damage. But mines were a defensive weapon and easily avoided during the war unless you chose to sail into the minefields. The problem I have is the mine card is nothing more than long range homing torpedoes that are shot at enemy fleets and cannot be avoided, thus it’s an offensive card not a defensive weapon.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/16/2013 9:50:27 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 13
RE: Sea Mines - 12/16/2013 8:54:27 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Shouldn't mines be something that can make an invasion abort as well ? a bit like a fleet blocking a river crossing : You want to land at one of the Mississippi mouth forts but get mines force a roll that you lose and the landing is aborted, losing valuable time.


Not needed, if the mines do enough damage the invasion should fail anyway (assuming the region is defended by enemy troops) since troops suffer damage as well as the ships, at least they should, not sure if mine damage is treated like other damage to fleets or not. I know when my fleet took weather damage near Fort Monroe the division on board was hit hard just as the fleet was.

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/16/2013 9:57:05 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 14
RE: Sea Mines - 12/17/2013 2:52:40 AM   
moni kerr

 

Posts: 691
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Shouldn't mines be something that can make an invasion abort as well ? a bit like a fleet blocking a river crossing : You want to land at one of the Mississippi mouth forts but get mines force a roll that you lose and the landing is aborted, losing valuable time.


Not needed, if the mines do enough damage the invasion should fail anyway (assuming the region is defended by enemy troops) since troops suffer damage as well as the ships, at least they should, not sure if mine damage is treated like other damage to fleets or not. I know when my fleet took weather damage near Fort Monroe the division on board was hit hard just as the fleet was.


One of my mines worked on that turn. I could see Hooker's division trying to finish it's movement to Williamsburg during the order phase (early March) and I played a mine (late March). It seems to have worked. At least I got the message it worked and Hooker never landed. I'll send you my files for early and late March

_____________________________

Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 15
RE: Sea Mines - 12/17/2013 11:40:05 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Then the fleet got a double whammy. The turn he failed to finish moving ashore the fleet was hit bad by weather damage and his division was hurt and out of cohesion. I guess you nailed it with mines as well the next turn but I missed it since I had canceled the unload and ordered the fleet and division to Fort Monroe to recover hits from the severe weather damage.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/17/2013 12:40:39 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to moni kerr)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Civil War II >> Sea Mines Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.719