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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/21/2014 3:40:57 PM

swkuh

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Where do all the claims of cheating come from? Can't imagine wasting my time in a game like this while cheating. Guess some gamers have had lived in a world of (gaming) hurt.

The analysis by others than G-rex seem definitive and decisive. Let's get past this.

BTW, G-rex's suggestion on map edits that might shut down the Lvov pocket stuff is worth testing (but I'm an editor idiot.)

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 91

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/21/2014 6:28:04 PM

Michael T

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in PBEM you can re-load your turn as many times as you like from any saved point. Use the server. I have advocated for a PBEM -no save- option in future titles. This would also help.

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Post #: 92

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/22/2014 9:20:24 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Gentlemen:

My apologies, if my opinion offends. That is not my intention... BUT... until I can discover what the magical "SU combination bug" is that you gentlemen are apparently utilizing to achieve the results you insist are 90% guaranteed... I remain unconvinced.

Please note it wouldn't be the first time I missed some important aspect of a game to gain an "I win" button.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 93

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/22/2014 9:43:25 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Gentlemen:

My apologies, if my opinion offends. That is not my intention... BUT... until I can discover what the magical "SU combination bug" is that you gentlemen are apparently utilizing to achieve the results you insist are 90% guaranteed... I remain unconvinced.

Please note it wouldn't be the first time I missed some important aspect of a game to gain an "I win" button.

Here's my simple minded understanding - I'm sure there are far more elegant interpretations.

a) bring a lot of artillery, so this works best with armies well equipped with artillery SUs and a command chain that means you will pass random rolls. If you have a 2-4 army commander and a 3-5 front commander, things will go wrong;
b) bring a lot of men. I reckon you want 2-1 in numbers (ie 4 times the divisions the Germans have);
c) even a small river returns this to random but it seems as if light woods are no more protection than clear;
d) in the period when the +1 rule applies, try to get the displayed CV between 1-1 and 1-2 (closer to 1-1 the safer). I guess when the +1 rule is removed, then this had better be at least 1-1 and probably around 1.5-1 (thats a guess).
e) it never hurts to bomb the Germans first;
f) all this will go wrong if your opponent gets a reserve reaction but as with their other safety net (stack high) this will slow them in 1941 and they can't cope with that.

Remember its not a 'I win' (unless you are Sapper222), its a 'I will most likely win this battle'. As ever with the Soviets in the defensive phase don't attack if you can't cope with the consequences of defeat - I've just unhinged a vital part of my defense line this way.

Equally since you really need to concentrate (see - b) then almost by definition you've weakened somewhere else. So its a tool that fits into the overall situation. The advantage is you can contest key sectors and make your opponent move very cautiously. I've noticed that SigUp's renewed offensive at Moscow is keeping his infantry divisions stacked 3 high. I can't hit back, but of course its going to take him a long time to golden domes of the Kremlin that way.

In my limited opinion, a good Soviet defense in 1941 is about indirect tactics. So putting effort into the partisan war is one aspect, this is another. The pay off isn't really the wins, its making the German player adopt a set of tactics that play to your strength.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

BTW, G-rex's suggestion on map edits that might shut down the Lvov pocket stuff is worth testing (but I'm an editor idiot.)

one that is worth looking at as it has a real impact on the Leningrad sector is the hex where the Neva exits Lake Ladoga. Here's a 1950s map (courtesy of the CIA) which I think indicates that hex should be a swamp not light woods:

< Message edited by loki100 -- 1/22/2014 10:53:40 PM >

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Post #: 94

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/22/2014 10:02:18 PM

hfarrish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Gentlemen:

My apologies, if my opinion offends. That is not my intention... BUT... until I can discover what the magical "SU combination bug" is that you gentlemen are apparently utilizing to achieve the results you insist are 90% guaranteed... I remain unconvinced.

Please note it wouldn't be the first time I missed some important aspect of a game to gain an "I win" button.

I would keep in mind as well that there is often some exaggeration in this. It is true that the Soviets can attack with very high degrees of success (in 1942 as well, quite frankly, even without the rule)...10-20 successful attacks per turn over multiple turns in 41 would require a pretty high combination of Soviet skill and a lack of any German attention whatsoever to exposed units (and probably a lot of luck as well). 5-10 or so is a different story and pretty doable, and in a single turn can happen.

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Post #: 95

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/22/2014 10:57:16 PM

GamesaurusRex

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For the question of the missing rivers.. even simple maps like this show them.

http://stayinkiev.com/uploaded/mapukraine.jpg

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Post #: 96

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/22/2014 11:39:37 PM

darbycmcd

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ah, so let me see if I understand.... there is some problem in the game, and we know it is there because all you have to do is have
1) numerical superiority
2) lavish artillery support
3) preferable air support
4) engineering support

and suddenly even the Soviets can successfully attack.... so... what is the problem here? I look over the combat reports that were posted and none of them seemed egregious to me. Part of the problem is that we only have 1 hex chunks, so forcing units out of their forward positions can look like 10 miles of retreat. I do think that attacker attrition is too low, but that goes for both sides. I guess I just don't see a big problem that 90% of attacks that meet those conditions work....

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Post #: 97

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/23/2014 3:55:57 PM

Joel Billings

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FYI, in our new War in Europe map, the hex where the Neva meets the Lake is a swamp hex. However, there are now 5 hexes on both sides of the river. I just looked up the river and it is 46 miles long, so I guess it could have gone either way, but our map designer ended up with a 5 hex length. The terrain in the north in general is much worse, and so is the terrain near the border in the south. This should make the Lvov pocket harder in WitE 2.0.

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Post #: 98

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 1/31/2014 5:41:23 AM

GamesaurusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

FYI, in our new War in Europe map, the hex where the Neva meets the Lake is a swamp hex. However, there are now 5 hexes on both sides of the river. I just looked up the river and it is 46 miles long, so I guess it could have gone either way, but our map designer ended up with a 5 hex length. The terrain in the north in general is much worse, and so is the terrain near the border in the south. This should make the Lvov pocket harder in WitE 2.0.

I don't think you understand the factual situation of the war. The Lvov Pocket wasn't a "hard" thing to achieve... it was an impossible thing to achieve...
If it had been possible, it would have been done, and the war would have ended in 1942.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 1/31/2014 6:42:05 AM >

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Post #: 99

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 12:22:52 AM

GamesaurusRex

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(This is just an update on this thread's comments as a result of reaching turn 106 (6/24/43) in the PBEM with Wheat using patch .11, standard settings, but with reduced blizzard effects, and a Lvov HR.)

Playing the Russian side, I have just now (turn 106) finally reached a point where the Russian side is beginning to have sufficient CV to attempt pushing back against the German side. Prior to this, real pushback capability has been near non-existent due to low CV and low unit numbers. (Assault was possible, but counterproductive and suicidal in the long term, if indulged in.) The game variables that have increased the CV levels and made pushback possible are the direct result of 4 things:

1) The addition of new combat units by expenditure of AP.
2) The formation of Corps level units which allow direct attachment of SUs.
3) The slowly increasing NM level which has resulted in units reaching a morale of 45 to 51 (or higher in a very few cases). and
4) The very slow process of adding 3 SU to each Corps .
(These 4 variables are working.)

Other factors that were intended by the designers to have a "multiplier" effect over time on the Russian CV that are not working properly are:

A) The decline in German NM level after 1942. (This is bugged and does not decline.) and
B) The formation of "Guard Status" units. (This is functioning, but I am fully convinced that it's effect as a balancing variable in the game was assessed by the play testers at a time when there was a bug that doubled the rate of recorded "wins" for their formation. This bug was recently fixed by Morvael and the formation of Guards units is now extremely low by comparison, especially if the German opponent actively guards against overextending his troops in 41-42. I cannot yet judge whether this bug repair will have a detrimental effect on the game balance, but I can positively state that the original game balance decisions that were made prior to the fix are now "out of the window". In the current game with Wheat, due to his excellent defense capability and the fact that Russian offense has been essentially pointless up until this turn, I have exactly only 5 Guards units, all initial OB divisions, and no Guards Corps by 6/24/43... This is the new norm you can expect against good German opponents.)

Due to the improving CV situation in this game, I have this very turn managed 6 multiple Corp level attacks resulting in 5 retreats and 1 hold. This is an improvement which, if repeated each turn, will eventually yield some Guards and inflict damage, but this is no where near the repeated claims of "10 to 20 attacks per turn yielding retreats"... I'm still unconvinced.

My opinion is that a lot of posted "balance comments" are tainted by outdated impressions of the game gained under earlier patches. I want to emphasize, however, that I can't make any final judgement until the entire game is played out. Several posters have reported other problems that hamper the German side in the later years of the game. I need to see things play out to know. Fortunately, the process is entertaining and that is, after all, the point of a game.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/10/2014 1:33:48 AM >

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Post #: 100

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 12:49:17 AM

rmonical

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You should play both sides before forming definitive conclusions.

I think the game is currently so far biased in the Soviet favor that experienced players are waiting for .14 to see what emerges before starting new games. My opinion is based on a couple of Road To .... scenarios and a resigned campaign game, but the Soviet wins were absurdly easy. These were all .13.

I think that a realistic game will be heavily biased in the Soviet favor because the Soviet player can avoid the most egregious high command errors of 1941.

No question that the Soviet player is the harder player 41-42. I assume you have learned techniques that will help you do much better in the future.

You will have no problem finding opponents to take the Soviet side in future games.

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Post #: 101

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 2:54:19 AM

Wheat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

You will have no problem finding opponents to take the Soviet side in future games.

Lol, I think getting HIM to take the Germans will be the problem.

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Post #: 102

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 9:57:18 AM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

A) The decline in German NM level after 1942. (This is bugged and does not decline.)

Units wil not magicly lose morale just becuse one year has passed, 70 morale refers to build morale , that is all units except elite, arive with a morale around 70.
while not explained in the manual , it is much harder to acheive morale gains above 80, in 1941 and 70 in 1942.

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Post #: 103

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 10:07:41 AM

morvael

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...but it's easier to regain morale that is below NM and harder to gain a lot over NM, therefore the mean moves with the NM level (while only defending and retreating most units will be roughly in range NM-10 to NM, while attacking and winning units will be roughly in the range NM to NM+5). The bugged part is that NM stays at 70 in 1943+, thus German units are stronger than intended at the end of war (however my personal opinion is that NM 55 is too low for '45).

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Post #: 104

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 11:30:21 AM

Gabriel B.

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Than it does not realy matter , german national morale could be 50, as long as he does not beat a unit repeatly ,it will remain
at build morale .

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Post #: 105

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 3:15:30 PM

Tarhunnas

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The Germans probably need a NM of 70 or so to have a chance late war, so I don't see this as a problem. And as you say Morvael, 55 is probably to low anyway from a realism standpoint.

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 8:19:25 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Gentlemen... The issue I highlighted here regarding the morale mechanism in the game is that the game design intended to increase the Russian morale, while decreasing the German morale, slowly over time. This design scheme is both historically accurate, as Germany expected to complete the war by 1942, and conceptually reasonable as a mechanism that slowly increases Russian resistance. Both the morale mechanism and the Guard Status formation process were intended and expected to raise Russian CV as the CG progresses. Neither are working properly. The morale mechanism isn't, because as Morvael has confirmed in his comment above, the relative NM of the German side is held arbitrarily higher (essentially frozen at 42 levels) than the game design is supposed support. The Guard Status formation isn't, because although Morvael fixed the bug that was doubling the rate of Guards formation in recent patches, I suspect the number of "wins" required by the mechanism to achieve Guards status was set based upon playtester experience using the ealier flawed code. Now the code is working properly, when combined with a blizzard reduction, the rate of Guards formation is greatly reduced.

The effect of these problems has given those who played the game under earlier patches the false impression that the Russian side is overpowered. As of the .11 patch, this is not so in my opinion.

(NOTE: There may be game mechanisms yet at work that might merit leaving things as they are, but I won't know that until I have played the CG fully through.)

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/10/2014 9:21:52 PM >

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Post #: 107

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 9:23:29 PM

Michael T

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Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 10:06:54 PM

Denniss

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I see no problem with the german 70 NM either, they are sufficiently penalized by enforcing the lower strength divisions from late 43 on (regardless of the war situation). Without this they would fold even faster vs huge size soviet corps.

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/10/2014 11:23:44 PM

rmonical

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
Neither are working properly.

They are working fine, perhaps too fine Here is a T109 screenshot of my game with hooooper giving you an idea of how ridiculously easy it is for the Soviets to build guards units. And it goes downhill from here fast.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rmonical -- 3/11/2014 12:28:38 AM >

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 12:19:24 AM

rmonical

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As for German morale, it only stays close to 70 as long as the infantry is winning half of the battles. This has been the case with my game with hooooper (T138). In part this is because he only recently stopped using the wave attacks. Now that he has a zillion guards infantry corps, he just smashes me wherever he want. Morale above national morale seems to drop with every attack

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 4:05:09 PM

Wheat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light

He's basing it on two and to be honest the first one we used Pelton's suggestions for increased German morale. I just ran over everything and Gamesaurus was so traumatized, he is suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I really do feel he is factoring that uber German game into his posts. And yes, I have told him, he needs to play the Germans.

Our current game is much, much better and he is starting to push me back, even without all corps in the attack.

He still isn't getting to Berlin before 1950 however. (At least, that's the official line.)

The interesting thing to me, is how the game mechanics change the sides abilities. I can now take my elite Panzers, hit his troops hard, and they never rout.

I can have an elite motorized unit (morale 90)leave the game, return the next month sans transport, and have a morale of 70. Now THAT sucks.

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 6:18:56 PM

GamesaurusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light

As I indicated above, I suspect your view is clouded by the fact that most of your 20 games were played prior to patch .11 .

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 6:25:59 PM

GamesaurusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
Neither are working properly.

They are working fine, perhaps too fine Here is a T109 screenshot of my game with hooooper giving you an idea of how ridiculously easy it is for the Soviets to build guards units. And it goes downhill from here fast.

What patch is this game ? If before Morvaels "fix", then the wins counted for Guards formation are twice what they are now. If not, then I suggest Hooper is too careless with the positioning of his troops and has given away "wins" to you by his poor end-turn positioning. Wheat has completely avoided this by not overextending his advances.

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Post #: 114

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 6:50:09 PM

GamesaurusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light

He's basing it on two and to be honest the first one we used Pelton's suggestions for increased German morale. I just ran over everything and Gamesaurus was so traumatized, he is suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I really do feel he is factoring that uber German game into his posts. And yes, I have told him, he needs to play the Germans.

Our current game is much, much better and he is starting to push me back, even without all corps in the attack.

He still isn't getting to Berlin before 1950 however. (At least, that's the official line.)

The interesting thing to me, is how the game mechanics change the sides abilities. I can now take my elite Panzers, hit his troops hard, and they never rout.

I can have an elite motorized unit (morale 90)leave the game, return the next month sans transport, and have a morale of 70. Now THAT sucks.

No, I'm not basing it on the first game. That game was not relevent for judging anything because of the morale bug that maxxed the German side at 100. I'm basing it on the fact that you have clearly demonstrated that the German side can drive the Russians back behind Leningrad-Moskow-Stalingrad by 1943 and do it without overextending the advancing spearheads under patch .11 and beyond.

With the Guards Status bug fixed and careful German positioning in 41-42, this results in thwarting the development of one of the Russian's major tools in the game that enables Russian counter offensives. Whether or not this requires adjustment is entirely a seperate issue, since there may be counterbalancing issues of game mechanisms not working properly and against the German side in the later part of the game. (For example, some have mentioned equipment swapping problems.)

I think Morvael is correct in fixing all the mechanical issues as he has. I only want to highlight their existence so he can properly adjust the overall balance where he can and feels it is fitting. In the case of the Guards Status build up rate, it may be that he might want to adjust the number of "wins" needed to attain these, if that number was set back when the code was double crediting the units. I merely point out the question.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/11/2014 7:56:16 PM >

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 8:41:42 PM

heliodorus04

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Play. The. Germans.
Reasoned examples are clearly not sufficient to convert your opinion.
Play the German side and then tell us how awesomes it is.

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Post #: 116

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 8:42:05 PM

Gabriel B.

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Some of the guards in the picture are divisions , the impact of atached suport units for those is zero .

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RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/11/2014 9:40:46 PM

Michael T

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Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

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Post #: 118

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/12/2014 6:37:59 PM

GamesaurusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

Michael T:

I could reciprocate similarly by noting that your view is clouded by your personal inadequacy at executing a proper German invasion... but then I would be lowering myself to your level.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/12/2014 7:38:40 PM >

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Post #: 119

RE: Trying To Like The Game But... - 3/12/2014 8:47:14 PM

STEF78

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

Michael T:

I could reciprocate similarly by noting that your view is clouded by your personal inadequacy at executing a proper German invasion... but then I would be lowering myself to your level.

Gamesaurus, I don't know what his your level as WITE player, as german or russian.

Personnaly, I simply consider Michael T as the one the 3 best players of WITE, among those who published on this forum.

If you both agree to play this game Gamesaurus/Michael T, I would bet on Michael T, no doubt and whatever the side choosen.

Maybe I'm wrong, and in this case you are a fantastic player and I would like to see the AAR.

< Message edited by STEF78 -- 3/12/2014 9:48:30 PM >

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 120