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A Missing Plane For a Mod

 
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A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/20/2013 10:53:30 PM   
wdolson

 

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Last night I came across some information about the 418th and 419th NFS which I believe get P-70s in game. They traded in their P-70s for B-25H fairly quickly and operated B-25 night fighters.

I came across the information in a book on the P-61 (both squadrons converted to the Black Widow when it became available). The information on the web is a bit thin, but I did come across this:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=126134

The small number of night fighters available to the USAAF makes it almost impossible to fill out the NFS until fairly late in the war. It turns out part of this is because some night fighters are missing.

I know the P-38M existed too which was a P-38 modified with a radar pod and a second crew member behind the pilot in a rather uncomfortable bubble. More than one model of this plane has been available over the years, but I've never seen any information about its operational use. (Though I also have not specifically looked for it either.) It probably would have been used in the Pacific. The USAAF had more NFS in the Pacific that anywhere else.

Bill

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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/20/2013 11:49:09 PM   
Halsey

 

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In the stock game there are a couple of these NF squadrons that upgrade to the B25 H, but they use the day time version.

Double checked, it seems the B25 H upgrade is unavailable after 7/44, and it is the day version of the bomber.


< Message edited by Halsey -- 12/21/2013 1:56:35 AM >


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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/20/2013 11:58:41 PM   
wdolson

 

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I couldn't find any information on whether they had radar or not, but they did have all the non-forwarding firing guns removed and the 75mm cannon replaces with another pair of .50 calibers. The top turret was also removed.

So they would be a different version and they would have to be classified as fighters to actually be able to server in the fighter role.

Bill

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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 10:12:08 AM   
Omat


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Hello

A nice picture from a P-38m



Maybe this link is interessing for you:

http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100526-018.pdf

It seems, that late war the targets for the p-61 become rare. So they begann to use the p-61 itself as a intruder and "attacked" targets at night.
When you read the book it was said that the B-25 could carry more bombs. So I think they used the B-25 more in an offensive way and the p-61 as an interceptor and late war also the same role as the B-25.

This is only a assumption.

Omat


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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 11:17:50 AM   
wdolson

 

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From what I read, B-25 night fighters were mostly used as an interim and were retired as soon as P-61s were available. The P-61 was a very potent night intruder. The P-61B would carry 4 250 gal drop tanks or 4 1600 pound bombs plus rockets. The B-25J could only carry 3000 pounds total. The P-61 was also much faster and more nimble than the B-25.

If aircraft technology hadn't been changing so rapidly just after WW II, the P-61 may have stayed in the US inventory longer. It was one of the best piston engine planes the US developed during the war. It had an amazing performance envelope which could stay in the air just fine at the speed of a Stuka or it could fly flat out near 400 mph. It was also very maneuverable for a twin engine plane.

When the Black Widow started becoming available to NFS, rumors went around that the Mosquito was a far superior night fighter and initially the USAAF in Europe was reluctant to allow the P-61s to go on active status. The commander of one of the NFS arranged a fly off between one of his planes and an RAF Mosquito. The P-61 outperformed the Mosquito in every way.

The only reason the P-61 didn't have more impact was it arrived fairly late in the war and when they were operational, the supply chain was critically short of spare parts. There were 2 NFS in the 9th AF with a strength of 12 planes each. By December 1944 the two squadrons only had 4-6 planes flyable. Losses had been minimal, most of the aircraft were down due to lack of spares. During the Battle of the Ardennes there were a lot of German targets flying in the American zone at night, but too few nightfighters to adequately cover the airspace.

(I've been reading an Osprey book on the P-61 off and on. It was one of the few aircraft I hadn't done much research on.)

Bill

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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 6:14:26 PM   
Bobdina1

 

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Omat thanks for the pic and link,Wdolson thanks for sharing your knowledge and research it is greatly appreciated .

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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 6:36:36 PM   
JeffroK


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From the archives of Joe Baugher:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p70.html
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p38_16.html

Since the USAAF had no night fighter units when the USA entered World War 2, a night fighter training organization was established at Orlando, Florida. Most of the P-70 Nighthawk aircraft served there with the 481st Night Fighter Operational Training Group to develop tactics and procedures for radar-controlled night interceptions and to train the crews of nineteen night fighter squadrons. Very few of these P-70s ever went overseas, most remaining in the USA to be passed on to the next night fighter units that needed to be trained. Most units trained on the P-70 were reequipped with the Northrop P-61 Black Widow before they transferred overseas.

Only five night fighter squadrons were still equipped with P-70s at the time they were deployed overseas. Four P-70-trained night fighter squadrons were sent with their aircraft to North Africa in 1943 for service with the Twelfth Air Force. However, when they got there, these outfits used Bristol Beaufighter VIF fighters obtained from Britain under Reverse Lend-Lease. The 427th Night Figher Squadron took its P-70s with it when it deployed to Italy, but the squadron exchanged its P-70s for Northrop P-61 Black Widows before it became operational.

The P-70 actually saw some combat action in the Pacific Theatre, although their service there was quite brief. The 6th Night Fighter Squadron began operations in February of 1943 with its P-70s from Henderson Field, Guadalcanal, in an attempt to intercept high-flying Japanese night raiders. It was later supplanted by the 419th Night Fighter Squadron. The 418th and 421st Night Fighter Squadrons flew P-70s operationally in New Guinea for a brief time. The P-70 was not very successful in combat, scoring only two kills during the entire war. The P-70 lacked sufficient performance to intercept Japanese night raiders unless it was extremely fortunate. P-70s were replaced with P-61s just as soon as these aircraft would be made available.


Early in 1943, at least two unidentified P-38Fs were modified in the field by the Fifth Air Force as single-seat night fighters by fitting an SCR540 radar with yagi antennae on the nose on both sides of the central nacelle, and above and below the wings. In order to make room for the radar, two of the 0.50-inch machine guns and their ammunition boxes had to be moved forward. Three P-38Js were also modified in the field as experimental night fighters.

However, these modifications were all single seaters, and it was found that the flying of the plane and the operation of the radar was too much of a job for just one person. Consequently, Lockheed attempted to adapt the P-38L as a two-seat night fighter. In 1944, Lockheed converted P-83L-5-LO Ser No 44-25237 as a two-seat night fighter, with the radar operator sitting aft of the pilot under a raised section of the canopy. The aircraft was fitted with an AN/APS-6 radar in an external radome underneath the nose, relocated radio equipment and anti-flash gun muzzles.

This modification was successful, and provided the USAAF with a night fighter having a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Consequently, the Army issued a contract change calling for the Lockheed Modification Center in Dallas to convert 80 additional P-38L-5-LOs into P-38M twin-seat night fighters (some sources give 75, but 80 serials are identified). They were painted glossy black overall. These were just entering service when the war ended. The P-38M saw operational service in the Pacific in the last few days of the war. It was an effective night fighter with very little performance penalty over the standard single-seat Lightning.

Flash eliminators were fitted to all guns, mainly to aid the pilot in retaining night vision when they were fired. Experiments were conducted with the object of shielding the turbosupercharger exhaust, but the entire exhaust system was so hot that it glowed at night, making the small reduction of visibility possible with the shielding of the actual efflux relatively pointless. Consequently, no modifications of the exhaust system were undertaken on "production" P-38Ms. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

A total of 80 P-38Ls were converted to P-38M configuration. Serials of P-38Ls converted to P-38M configuration were as follows: 44-26831, 26863, 26865, 26892, 26951, 26997, 26999, 27000, 27108, 27233, 27234, 27236, 27237, 27238, 27245, 27249, 27250, 27251, 27252, 27254, 27256, 27257, 27258, 53011, 53012, 53013, 53014, 53015, 53016, 53017, 53019, 53020, 53022, 53023, 53025, 53029, 53030, 53031, 53032, 53034, 53035, 53042, 53050, 53052, 53056, 53062, 53063, 53066, 53067, 53068, 53069, 53073, 53074, 53076, 53077, 53079, 53080, 53082, 53083, 53084, 53085, 53086, 53087, 53088, 53089, 53090, 53092, 53093, 53094, 53095, 53096, 53097, 53098, 53100, 53101, 53106, 53107, 53109, 53110, 53112.


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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 6:56:47 PM   
JeffroK


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The records of 418 Sqn confirm the use of the B25 & P38, but from the article it appears the B25 were used as Night Intruders more than as Night Fighters.

Just add to the coincidence file, 418 RCAF Sqn flew the Boston, the Night Intruder version of the P70!

< Message edited by JeffK -- 12/21/2013 8:00:04 PM >


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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/21/2013 10:40:15 PM   
wdolson

 

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From what I read in my Black Widow book, the 418th used their B-25s for base protection until they got P-61s.

From the pictures I've seen, the P-38M must have been a very uncomfortable ride for the radar operator. I guess their late arrival is why I haven't seen much information on their use operationally. I figured they were late arrivals because they were modified from the last day fighter mark of the P-38.

Bill

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RE: A Missing Plane For a Mod - 12/22/2013 7:16:48 PM   
Halsey

 

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US in game NF's.

Shameless plug...






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Halsey -- 12/22/2013 10:38:04 PM >


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