Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

@ Curtis,
So the Light Woods Def. Modifier for Infantry is because of unrestricted vision, vs. Cropland having restricted vision, removes that advantage for the defender ?

Neither Light Woods nor Cropland have any DF modifier for infantry. Also, Light Woods is Normal Vision, not Unrestricted (AKA Open Vision). I think vision type only affects AT combat via the "Chance to Hit" value. See section 19.2 in the manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

However, the manual states (19.2 - Notes on combat resolution):

quote:

Open Vision locations have no precipitation
and no terrain other than Open, Arid, Roads, Rivers, Rocky, Escarpments, Canals, or Sandy.
Restricted Vision locations have Heavy Precipitation, Heavy Cultivated, Urban, Urban Ruin, or
Forest terrain

That would leave light woods and cropland (light cultivated) as normal vision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

@ Curtis,
So the Light Woods Def. Modifier for Infantry is because of unrestricted vision, vs. Cropland having restricted vision, removes that advantage for the defender ?

Neither Light Woods nor Cropland have any DF modifier for infantry. Also, Light Woods is Normal Vision, not Unrestricted (AKA Open Vision). I think vision type only affects AT combat via the "Chance to Hit" value. See section 19.2 in the manual.

So light woods do not count as forest? Or?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

However, the manual states (19.2 - Notes on combat resolution):

quote:

Open Vision locations have no precipitation
and no terrain other than Open, Arid, Roads, Rivers, Rocky, Escarpments, Canals, or Sandy.
Restricted Vision locations have Heavy Precipitation, Heavy Cultivated, Urban, Urban Ruin, or
Forest terrain

That would leave light woods and cropland (light cultivated) as normal vision.

That section of the manual is the only place where the word "cultivated" occurs. So, that begs the question of what did Norm mean by "Heavy Cultivated". I don't know what it could mean other than Cropland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

As i understand it, 'heavy cultivated' refers to bocage terrain. its tile graphics is named 'tiles_h_cultivated.bmp/.png'. And there is normal cropland, tile name 'tiles_l_cultivated.bmp/.png

It also would make sense. Visibility in bocage terrain is very restricted as opposed to visibilty in cropland (not every field is corn - i do not know if corn was even cultivated in Europe in the 40ies but i doubt it).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

As i understand it, 'heavy cultivated' refers to bocage terrain. its tile graphics is named 'tiles_h_cultivated.bmp/.png'. And there is normal cropland, tile name 'tiles_l_cultivated.bmp/.png

It also would make sense. Visibility in bocage terrain is very restricted as opposed to visibilty in cropland (not every field is corn - i do not know if corn was even cultivated in Europe in the 40ies but i doubt it).

Ah! Ok, that's probably right. "Norm Translation" is a difficult field.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I see. So then cropland in an Italian campaign might not be a good idea since it started in September. Except maybe for vineyards. It's not like they're rice fields.

Something to think about. Have you ever been in Italy? It's really rough. Well, not everywhere, but it is quite "vegetated".. Also note that in the Calabrian peninsula i used cropland in the plains and light woods in the hills for the usual mixture of cropland, olive and other fruit cultures and vineyards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I see. So then cropland in an Italian campaign might not be a good idea since it started in September. Except maybe for vineyards. It's not like they're rice fields.

Something to think about. Have you ever been in Italy? It's really rough. Well, not everywhere, but it is quite "vegetated".. Also note that in the Calabrian peninsula i used cropland in the plains and light woods in the hills for the usual mixture of cropland, olive and other fruit cultures and vineyards.

Yes, this is one of the unfortunate aspects of TOAW. No rough terrain. It's especially difficult for someone such as yourself who is making a map at a scale where a rough terrain tile would be a useful feature. Perhaps modifying an existing tile that would somewhat model rough terrain and that you wouldn't use for a map of Italy.

That panorama is very enlightening. It almost looks like a cross between light woods and forest. Visibility in those woods might be fairly restricted in some spots. Not in others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA

Really really wonderful map here, keep up the good work!
If you need some advice or help with italian language sources I can offer my services, I'm Italian and if needed I can try to translate some information that you may need. I'm interested to give a look to the Italian allied-sided units OOB, if needed I have some italian and english sources to share on the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA

I live in the Padan Plains so actually nearby is most croplands and marshes. My town (Bologna) sits on the hilly prodromes of the Appennines so I'd like to talk about what I know for sure.
I've been in Puglia and I confirm the countryside is quite rough, hilly and broken in different valleys that stretch from the western "mountains" (I'm referring to the Puglia central mountaineous backbone, not sure if they're above 800meters) straight into the coast. I'm not sure about terrain visibility, Italy is rarely a place where you can see more than ten Kms ahead and even in croplands visibility is restricted by Bocage-like division between the land lots.
Southern Italy is quite arid, so I'm not sure if it would be correct to depict the hills as covered in woods. I'm sure that is the case for central Italy down to Rieti all along the Appennines: rough hilly terrain fully covered with light and dense caduceous(NOT evergreen plants like coniferae) forests. But regarding the area you have already drawn, I would represent the rough terrain without woods, apart from Sila mountains that are surely heavy covered in dense woods. If I remember correctly from my child lessons of Geography, Italy vegetation is prominently caduceous apart from Alpes and few zones of the Appennines, like Gran Sasso National Park in Abruzzo IIRC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITAEdit: A friend of mine possess a Olive plantation, olives are large and low-branched trees, packet tightly in order to save space, because the fruits are picked with nets stretched above the trees, that are shaken in order to make the mature fruits fall. I would hardly think a tank like the Sherman could even get inside that labirinth, not only because Olive trees are really hard to knock down but also because the branches are really low (even less than 2 meters) and they would ruin antennas, periscope, sights, etc. Visibility is limited because olive plantations tend to be put on hill slopes, I remember vaguely that's because of the certain kind of terrain needed for oil quality Olive trees.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Ah yes, and here is another problem in TOAW. This area has very bad floods sometimes in fall and winter. So if you make it arid there will be no rain in the game I think. Unless there is some way to make arid so there is seasonal heavy rain. So, average rain is not so much. But seasonal rain can be very heavy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
I like both screens!
Too bad there's no way to add woods to mountain terrain, Sila looks like a bald man without his forest cover.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
My advice would be to stick to the material you are already using (so well so far), do some changes where you see better fit and don't think twice about terrain, we all know the problem here is TOAW limitations, not yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
and I usually hate the look of crop-land.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
I'll confess that the earlier discussion had me wandering out to the nearby orchards and vineyards

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ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Hi Telumar, great work, only three little thing about your last posted image...I don'y know if you can change
the name on the map, however:
Penisola Salentino -> Penisola Salentina;

quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Nardo -> Nardò;

quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Salio -> I'm not pugliese, but I don't think that Salio exist (but maybe I'm wrong here).

Regards.