Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

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ORIGINAL: castor troy

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

So this does work, I have used it. I justifty this because I had to put more resoures/troops into China to clear the path to start with. So this to me could represent building a better infrastructure to support the additional troops, etc. so something like this was feasiable in RL.

I was sorta with you until here. To think Japan could have built pipelines from Malaysia to Shanghai or fielded tens of thousands of RR tank cars, plus locomotives, plus track maintenance troops in a year under wartime conditions is not valid. There's a reason they used tankers; there was no other way.

I did say that puting more effort into China should have also meant increasing additional upgrades to other areas. I was not implying this capacity was available in the real war because Japan did not have the capacity as you point out. But as a player, if I increase my operations in China, then I am 'pretending' if you will, that I AM upgrading the capacties so this kind of transportation is doable. Even though the game has no method to actually do this.

Of course if you really want to play a game where you do have the ability to change/upgrade infrastructure/supply thruput capacities, then Hearts of Iron III is your only option At least the only one I know of on this scale. It will be interesting to see what new feature HoI IV will bring as it was just announced to be in development

It would NOT be possible, no matter what you would do. Building the infrastructure from Singapore to Shanghai or even further into Korea would take far longer than the war lasted, it would even take longer nowadays,
let alone 70 years ago and Japan had NOT the capabilities to do so, no matter what you think or have done in the game. There is so much fantasy in Japanese gameplay but trying to justify the magic pipeline from
Malaya to Japan is close to total BS, sorry. The argument alone that you "are upgrading the capacities" makes it obvious that you are not really into infrastructure building of real life when you think that bringing
additional troops and support into China to kick ass there would create a magic pipeline plus an additional modern railway system to transport the ressources too.

It just wouldn't happen, fact.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was PRETENDING all this upgrade was happening. So that should indicate that I undersatnd that the RL capabilities were much less than in my PRETEND world. I did not ever say it was accurate portral of the RL capabilities for Japan, China, or anyone else.

But I fail to undrstand why any of this really matters to any AFB. Even if Japan gets an AV, if the game continues, the Allies still have a 90% chance of winning. I could have gotten an AV as Japan in my PBEM game but did not and I still lost in '45. Is getting beat up in '42 so bad? It is NOTHING compared to the beatdown Japan gets in '45

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well I can tell you from my experience as Japan in '44/'45 it is definately something to behold lol. That's why I wanted to play to the end Even as I was having the 'rain of death' on me, it was still amazing to watch.

For any of you JFBs outh there, it is definately worth experiencing . So keep going to the end.

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ORIGINAL: obvert

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well I can tell you from my experience as Japan in '44/'45 it is definately something to behold lol. That's why I wanted to play to the end Even as I was having the 'rain of death' on me, it was still amazing to watch.

For any of you JFBs outh there, it is definately worth experiencing . So keep going to the end.

It's too bad players quit when the game is not going as they would wish. If you're playing the Japanese side, why quit in 43 when it's going badly. It will be the same in 44-46. You're just seeing it earlier.

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

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ORIGINAL: obvert

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

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ORIGINAL: obvert

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

Many Allied players do run out of fuel or supply in 1942. China is sui generis and in 1942 has the characteristics not unkown to late war Japanese players. Having 10m tons of fuel on the East Coast is of zero value there. It has to be moved forward and contrary to your assertion there is often, in 1942 a lack of suitable, in situ available shipping to get it to where it is needed.

Then there is the problem of getting the reinforcements into position. They aren't of much value if trapped in Aden due to a Japanese blockade of the wormhole exits.

Nothing productive is gained by players of either side wailing about their difficulties. Everyone here has signed up to play what is generally agreed to be the most realistic to history PTO game produced. That means you get to "enjoy" the frustrations which the real historical actors had to endure. Providing dogged resistance as Chiang kai-chek's forces roll with the punches in China or the Japanese 35th Army provides dogged resistance on Okinawa is playing. War is no fun, a point consistently overlooked by posters who demand both historical accuracy and fun in the same software package.

Alfred

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ORIGINAL: obvert

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well I can tell you from my experience as Japan in '44/'45 it is definately something to behold lol. That's why I wanted to play to the end Even as I was having the 'rain of death' on me, it was still amazing to watch.

For any of you JFBs outh there, it is definately worth experiencing . So keep going to the end.

It's too bad players quit when the game is not going as they would wish. If you're playing the Japanese side, why quit in 43 when it's going badly. It will be the same in 44-46. You're just seeing it earlier.

I'd have to look through my AAR to see the shift more closely, but even after the Allies had no CVs in early 43 I noticed a definite change in naval battles, in air battles and on the ground with the 43 upgrades and new equipment. This makes 43 the most evenly balanced and interesting year, as most seem to agree. The Allies might not be able to move forward quickly, but they're no longer (in most cases) retreating. By the end of 43 they're moving forward and taking a toll on the defenses.

So after that 44 is just a long slow painful Japanese retreat, at best. At worst I've seen AARs where it's a quick, painful Japanese retreat. That's a lot like 42 for the Allies.

Then imagine it got worse. Imagine your economy, your ability to produce and supply and fuel your troops and equipment started to falter. So defenses you'd prepared for years were being tested, at last, but were ineffectual due to these factors and the amazing amount and quality of Allied stuff arriving in theatre.

So for the next year, or two if you're lucky, you get to try to make decisions that often can't lead to success because nothing works anymore. And you do this for several years of real life.

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

There are still bright spots, and the hope of those positive moments in the midst of utter destruction and collapse are the things that keep us playing. There is also the knowledge of really how bad it can get, which teaches a lot about the war. It is amazing to watch sometimes.

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While it worked, Midway is now getting hit with 100+ B-29 strikes out of Pearl every day. It would be dismal to be one of the Japanese units on that small patch of earth -- you would have to be subterranean just to survive.

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

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While it worked, Midway is now getting hit with 100+ B-29 strikes out of Pearl every day. It would be dismal to be one of the Japanese units on that small patch of earth -- you would have to be subterranean just to survive.

This alone makes your Midway invasion a smashing success. Every bomber busy turning the garrisson subterranean does not drop ordnance on the HI.

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

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ORIGINAL: obvert

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

Many Allied players do run out of fuel or supply in 1942. China is sui generis and in 1942 has the characteristics not unkown to late war Japanese players. Having 10m tons of fuel on the East Coast is of zero value there. It has to be moved forward and contrary to your assertion there is often, in 1942 a lack of suitable, in situ available shipping to get it to where it is needed.

Then there is the problem of getting the reinforcements into position. They aren't of much value if trapped in Aden due to a Japanese blockade of the wormhole exits.

Nothing productive is gained by players of either side wailing about their difficulties. Everyone here has signed up to play what is generally agreed to be the most realistic to history PTO game produced. That means you get to "enjoy" the frustrations which the real historical actors had to endure. Providing dogged resistance as Chiang kai-chek's forces roll with the punches in China or the Japanese 35th Army provides dogged resistance on Okinawa is playing. War is no fun, a point consistently overlooked by posters who demand both historical accuracy and fun in the same software package.

Alfred

Aflred, IMHO there IS a significant difference between the sides:
The Allies start in a dire situation, but with only a small dose of experience they know it will get better.
Japan ends in that situation, with no hope of ever improving again.

I agree with you on everything you say, but taking the above into account playing Japan is tougher on the psyche.

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ORIGINAL: Alfred
It is only tougher on the psyche if they insist on trying to play with an American mindset. Adopting the historical Japanese mindset makes it easier.

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At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

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ORIGINAL: obvert

'Playing' the Japanese in 45 is nothing like what the Allied player ever faces. The Allies never run out of fuel or supply in 42, the troops never stop coming, although there are never enough planes there are ALWAYS enough ships. At some point for the Japanese the 'playing' stops and there is just dogged determination to try to make some difference at all in the Allied progress.

Many Allied players do run out of fuel or supply in 1942. China is sui generis and in 1942 has the characteristics not unkown to late war Japanese players. Having 10m tons of fuel on the East Coast is of zero value there. It has to be moved forward and contrary to your assertion there is often, in 1942 a lack of suitable, in situ available shipping to get it to where it is needed.

Then there is the problem of getting the reinforcements into position. They aren't of much value if trapped in Aden due to a Japanese blockade of the wormhole exits.

Nothing productive is gained by players of either side wailing about their difficulties. Everyone here has signed up to play what is generally agreed to be the most realistic to history PTO game produced. That means you get to "enjoy" the frustrations which the real historical actors had to endure. Providing dogged resistance as Chiang kai-chek's forces roll with the punches in China or the Japanese 35th Army provides dogged resistance on Okinawa is playing. War is no fun, a point consistently overlooked by posters who demand both historical accuracy and fun in the same software package.

Alfred

Aflred, IMHO there IS a significant difference between the sides:
The Allies start in a dire situation, but with only a small dose of experience they know it will get better.
Japan ends in that situation, with no hope of ever improving again.

I agree with you on everything you say, but taking the above into account playing Japan is tougher on the psyche.

It is only tougher on the psyche if they insist on trying to play with an American mindset. Adopting the historical Japanese mindset makes it easier. When one believes great honour ensues from dying for the God Emperor, when the belief is that it is an unavoidable defensive war for which nothing less than the survival of the Japanese nation is at stake, a different perspective ensues. The concept of things not improving again is meaningless in the context that only by fighting is there any hope.

Then there is the silly mindset adopted by many Allied players that it doesn't mater what happens now, victory is inevitable. No such thing exists. Plenty of Allied players recklessly lose assets in 1942, even in 1943, and get limited, if any, value from their glorious offensive operations. Until the day dawns on them that they lack assets or are very much behind schedule, and simply walk away from the game.

Bad Allied play will not be redeemed by the pipeline of assets.

Alfred

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ORIGINAL: obvert

At some point you are playing for honor, but not in a Japanese sense most likely, probably more to give the game it's full conclusion, out of respect for your opponent's interest and dedication, and simply out of curiosity to see how it goes. Then there is always that glimmer of hope in the most optimistic of us that something might still give a positive result.

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ORIGINAL: obvert

At some point you are playing for honor, but not in a Japanese sense most likely, probably more to give the game it's full conclusion, out of respect for your opponent's interest and dedication, and simply out of curiosity to see how it goes. Then there is always that glimmer of hope in the most optimistic of us that something might still give a positive result.

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ORIGINAL: Numdydar

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ORIGINAL: obvert

At some point you are playing for honor, but not in a Japanese sense most likely, probably more to give the game it's full conclusion, out of respect for your opponent's interest and dedication, and simply out of curiosity to see how it goes. Then there is always that glimmer of hope in the most optimistic of us that something might still give a positive result.

This sums up exactly why I play Japan to the bitter end. Of course having a good sense of gallows humor helps a lot too . "Wow, another 300 planes destroyed in the air today! That is amazing. I wonder if that can be topped on the next turn?"