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Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 8:44:20 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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I'm playing the J side for the first time and I'm sure I'm doing stuff wrong (as well as losing badly

) but I'd like to learn from this. I found recently that my refineries in the HI are not keeping up with my usage. I took the following steps: reduced airframe and engine production to only the essentials, idled some vehicle, armaments and HI factories, and expanded some refinery cap in the HI a little bit. Here is the tracker chart. I'm sure the manpower figure will be unreadable, it is 758,727. I've provided a fill in the blank form below. Those of you who have opinions based on experience, kindly fill in the target number you would want to see in the five fields enumerated. Wisecracks about my competancy are welcome.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 1/24/2014 9:46:48 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 8:59:18 PM

bartrat

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From: USA
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What date is that screen shot from? Also have you captured all the oil centers in DEI? what about Burma?

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 2

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 9:06:54 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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You probably want to shut down all but one Merchant shipyard and stop production of all xAKs. You already have a ton of merchant shipping and you'll still turn out your TKs. This little adjustment saves a wagon load of HI.

(in reply to bartrat)

Post #: 3

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 9:07:04 PM

Skyros

Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
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8/28/42

(in reply to bartrat)

Post #: 4

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 9:39:48 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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Geof, My experience is a bit limited but I started playing as Japan (jumped into the deep end) , but I can tell you what I've read here. HI, you should shoot for 3-4 million by '45 (or by time SRA cut off). You may not get there, but they say you should try. Anyway the more the merrier. Armaments, once it hits 100k start turning some off. Not sure about the rest yet. One thing I will say here is that your oil centers are low. I'm currently (3rd start) in a scen1 Japan vs AI and my oil is at 1968 (Feb 6 '42) and I still have 216 more damaged. Ref. is low too, but they're located at most oil centers so you can kill two birds with one stone. W/O the oil for fuel you will have no HI, and your world revolves around HI.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 1/24/2014 10:40:50 PM >

(in reply to Skyros)

Post #: 5

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 9:46:22 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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Oh, a couple more that I remember. Don't worry about manpower, I've read its all but impossible to run out. Never turn off HI if you have the inputs needed to keep it going. Of course you do need fuel for your navy, but I've read its better to try to minimize fleet fuel usage than turn off HI.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 6

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/24/2014 11:15:02 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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Your HI total looks decent for 8/28/42, IMO. You also have a fair amount of ARM/VEH points. You have a boatload of NavSy/MerSy - shut those off and build out those points so they aren't wasted.

Where you're low is Oil/Fuel and Supply. Did you capture Oil/Refinery centers in extremely damaged condition (looks like you have 513 damaged Refineries)? Did you repair any? Are you playing a DBB mod where refineries do not produce Supply? Did you run the IJN all over the map, possibly including a lot of Full Speed runs?

It looks like you're only "short" 191 Oil centers, so you'll run out of Oil globally in 500 days. That's not so bad - that's early in '44. I suspect that the reason you're short on Fuel is because you have damaged Oil and Refinery centers that you never repaired. Maybe it wasn't worth repairing them once you'd captured them, I don't know, but I think that's the root cause.

What do you mean by "not keeping up with my usage"?

(in reply to rustysi)

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RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 12:06:23 AM

EHansen

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Did you not capture a lot of oil centers? You should capture 2000+ less what is damages and you start with 224. If you had captured them and they were
severely damaged they should show up on the chart something like Oil Centers 1101(1200) to show a lot damaged.
That chart only shows 8 damaged and 1101 available.

< Message edited by EHansen -- 1/25/2014 1:07:00 AM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 6:26:36 AM

wyrmmy

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The main problem is that I still hold Java, Sumatra and Burma. Hence the standing replay offer with a DEI centric strategy from you.

I also assume part of the problem was the long term carrier support for your SoPac invasions.

< Message edited by wyrmm -- 1/25/2014 7:27:46 AM >

(in reply to EHansen)

Post #: 9

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 10:22:07 AM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

The main problem is that I still hold Java, Sumatra and Burma. Hence the standing replay offer with a DEI centric strategy from you.

I also assume part of the problem was the long term carrier support for your SoPac invasions.

Well now, that would bugger things up.

(in reply to wyrmmy)

Post #: 10

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 11:20:34 AM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat

What date is that screen shot from? Also have you captured all the oil centers in DEI? what about Burma?

The date is on the bottom (8-24-42) and sadly no and no.

(in reply to bartrat)

Post #: 11

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 11:23:05 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

You probably want to shut down all but one Merchant shipyard and stop production of all xAKs. You already have a ton of merchant shipping and you'll still turn out your TKs. This little adjustment saves a wagon load of HI.

I shut those down on 12/7/41. Just TKs being built. I have been building those landing barge thingies, probably don't need those.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 12

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 11:41:36 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Your HI total looks decent for 8/28/42, IMO. You also have a fair amount of ARM/VEH points. You have a boatload of NavSy/MerSy - shut those off and build out those points so they aren't wasted.

Where you're low is Oil/Fuel and Supply. Did you capture Oil/Refinery centers in extremely damaged condition (looks like you have 513 damaged Refineries)? Did you repair any? Are you playing a DBB mod where refineries do not produce Supply? Did you run the IJN all over the map, possibly including a lot of Full Speed runs?

It looks like you're only "short" 191 Oil centers, so you'll run out of Oil globally in 500 days. That's not so bad - that's early in '44. I suspect that the reason you're short on Fuel is because you have damaged Oil and Refinery centers that you never repaired. Maybe it wasn't worth repairing them once you'd captured them, I don't know, but I think that's the root cause.

What do you mean by "not keeping up with my usage"?

You can see on the bottom of the tracker screen DBB-C. I've repaired Miri (oilfield only) almost all the way. My opponent firebombed Bangkock and the refinery there is gone, but I don't see the point of repairing it and shipping oil there for it to refine. Bangkock is a very interesting name, by the way.
I have been shipping oil to Port Arthur because Manchukuo seems to be able to produce sufficient supplies for themselves and China with the fuel produced there. What I mean is that the refineries in the HI all have plenty of oil, but are nearly out of fuel.
No full speed runs, and I try and have them "hover" as much as possible and using no fuel. I think that's a flaw in the game incidentally, unless you're docked or disbanded you should be using fuel even if you stay in one hex. I'm only now landing on Java and wyrmm is giving me all sorts of grief. I'm thinking he's built up Sumatra but I don't think it'll be too much trouble once I have Java under control.

I'm just mystified by th HI. I haven't shipped any fuel out of there in quite some time. Where's the fuel going?

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 11:47:13 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

The main problem is that I still hold Java, Sumatra and Burma. Hence the standing replay offer with a DEI centric strategy from you.

I also assume part of the problem was the long term carrier support for your SoPac invasions.

Most days the KB just sits in one hex or only moves one or two. During that period at Fiji it was mostly motionless where you couldn't see it and just came in once in a while and got lucky a bunch. The KBs going to have to move alot just now though, once I let you sink some of it there will be less usage.

I don't go anywhere without BBs though, I expect that's a problem.

(in reply to wyrmmy)

Post #: 14

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 11:55:12 AM

geofflambert

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I remember Steve Garvey using the euphemism "pumping chicks". I hear Thailand is quite the sex tourism destination. I wonder if any of those tourists describe it as "going Bangkock".

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 15

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 12:27:08 PM

pws1225

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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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You don't need to go to Bangkok. You've already been screwed.

< Message edited by pws1225 -- 1/25/2014 1:27:50 PM >

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 16

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 12:31:18 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Your Supply is low and the ratio of ac to engines is off. I'd guess that you have not balanced your ac production with your engines. I'd also guess you have overexpanded your ac production. IJ economy requires a soft hand, not a hard fist.

Supply, HI, and fuel are all things that you have to monitor carefully and that you will never have enough of.

Then looking to the endgame, the reason that you need to stockpile HI is so that your economy can keep functioning. What you build at that time is: AC, Engines, VEH, and ARM. Since you are going to convert HI into AC, Engines, VEH, or ARM it means some of these can be same as stockpiling HI. So, I never turn off ARM or VEH. Those points are the same as HI, except they've been translated into a more final product. You will use them all if you survive to the end. Engines, there are some models you know you will need all the way to the end of the game: Ha-45, Ha-33 and to some extent Ha-32. So large pools of these are also the same as HI; you know you will use them if you survive.

AC are the only one that you can't really stockpile from the early game. In fact, if you assume that you have a fixed amount of HI for the game (not a bad assumption), then every Zeke you build early is one less Frank that you will be able to build later. Clearly you want more Franks in '45, but now you have to balance this against what you need to achieve in '42. My point is that if you build A6M ( and other early planes indiscriminately), to achieve success in '42 you will have doomed yourself in '45 as you will not have the HI/supply to build the Franks/Sams that you need then.

Playing the IJ is about striking a careful balance; build just what you need to achieve your '42 goals but not more and then be able to build like crazy your final generation planes which are capable of saving you IF you can build enough. Shinden, Ki-83, Frank ... these planes (among a select few others) if you have enough of them CAN hold the lines in '45.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 1/25/2014 1:47:42 PM >

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 17

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 5:02:42 PM

offenseman

Posts: 768
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From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

The main problem is that I still hold Java, Sumatra and Burma. Hence the standing replay offer with a DEI centric strategy from you.

I also assume part of the problem was the long term carrier support for your SoPac invasions.

Geoff, this is the Kobiyashi Maru scenario. TBH I'd take the offer of a replay. Now that you have seen what the Japanese side looks like and can make allowances for the reality of that. Unfortunately, economically you are in late 1944 as far as oil production goes and it is going to be a game where you are simply holding on until the end. Others may disagree with me but without that oil, 1943 is looking to be a LONG grueling year and perhaps very little fun for you.

If you opt for the replay, I will anxiously await the next AAR.

_____________________________

Sometimes things said in Nitwit sound very different in English.

(in reply to wyrmmy)

Post #: 18

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 5:33:52 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

The main problem is that I still hold Java, Sumatra and Burma. Hence the standing replay offer with a DEI centric strategy from you.

I also assume part of the problem was the long term carrier support for your SoPac invasions.

Geoff, this is the Kobiyashi Maru scenario. TBH I'd take the offer of a replay. Now that you have seen what the Japanese side looks like and can make allowances for the reality of that. Unfortunately, economically you are in late 1944 as far as oil production goes and it is going to be a game where you are simply holding on until the end. Others may disagree with me but without that oil, 1943 is looking to be a LONG grueling year and perhaps very little fun for you.

If you opt for the replay, I will anxiously await the next AAR.

I'm still having fun. Just put two fish in the Enterprise.

(in reply to offenseman)

Post #: 19

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/25/2014 5:38:05 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Your Supply is low and the ratio of ac to engines is off. I'd guess that you have not balanced your ac production with your engines. I'd also guess you have overexpanded your ac production. IJ economy requires a soft hand, not a hard fist.

Supply, HI, and fuel are all things that you have to monitor carefully and that you will never have enough of.

Then looking to the endgame, the reason that you need to stockpile HI is so that your economy can keep functioning. What you build at that time is: AC, Engines, VEH, and ARM. Since you are going to convert HI into AC, Engines, VEH, or ARM it means some of these can be same as stockpiling HI. So, I never turn off ARM or VEH. Those points are the same as HI, except they've been translated into a more final product. You will use them all if you survive to the end. Engines, there are some models you know you will need all the way to the end of the game: Ha-45, Ha-33 and to some extent Ha-32. So large pools of these are also the same as HI; you know you will use them if you survive.

AC are the only one that you can't really stockpile from the early game. In fact, if you assume that you have a fixed amount of HI for the game (not a bad assumption), then every Zeke you build early is one less Frank that you will be able to build later. Clearly you want more Franks in '45, but now you have to balance this against what you need to achieve in '42. My point is that if you build A6M ( and other early planes indiscriminately), to achieve success in '42 you will have doomed yourself in '45 as you will not have the HI/supply to build the Franks/Sams that you need then.

Playing the IJ is about striking a careful balance; build just what you need to achieve your '42 goals but not more and then be able to build like crazy your final generation planes which are capable of saving you IF you can build enough. Shinden, Ki-83, Frank ... these planes (among a select few others) if you have enough of them CAN hold the lines in '45.

I've already cut way back on the A6Ms but I'm going wild with the Tojos right now. There's no point making too many Naval planes as IJN recruits are hard to come by.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 1/26/2014 4:59:06 AM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 20

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/26/2014 3:54:54 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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Thank you everyone for the help

(in reply to geofflambert)

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RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/26/2014 4:14:58 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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For the record, staying in a hex does use a cruise speed's worth of fuel. It's why TFs that are "hovering" slowly run out of fuel.

I think your big problem is that you've not taken the big oil centers in the DEI. If you'd taken those, you would have a much larger stockpile of Oil and Fuel, and you could adjust to your other minor problems - such as overexpanding aircraft factories.

Looks like a nice learning game for you.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 22

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/26/2014 6:17:48 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I'm sure I'm doing stuff wrong.

Yes, so are we.

quote:

Wisecracks about my competancy are welcome.

Good grief-what an incompetent Gorn you are.

Happy to help.

_____________________________

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 23

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/26/2014 8:34:15 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

For the record, staying in a hex does use a cruise speed's worth of fuel. It's why TFs that are "hovering" slowly run out of fuel.

Are you sure that's true for subs? I used to just let them sit in one spot and they never ran out.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 24

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/26/2014 8:36:46 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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Thanks El Nino Con Pollo, very helpful.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 25

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/27/2014 2:56:58 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
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From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Wisecracks about my competancy are welcome.

That would mean there IS a level of competancy somewhere

Seriously, man. Hats off to you. I'm skeered of that monster that is the Japanese economy. I'll tackle it, when I retire and can give it the time it needs

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 26

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/29/2014 7:01:51 PM

leehunt27@bloomberg.net

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I echo many of the sentiments-- I would also consider axing your entire submarine fleet production. By mid 1943 the Allied ASW is fierce and your subs are little more than minelayers and recon. I wish I'd shut sub production off.

Also as mentioned, check your engines to A/C, kill the MerSY and reduce NavSY production. Deliver massive supply to repair oil bases and defend them. The Japanese economy is really all about oil & fuel- you have plenty of resources near the Home Islands. I wish I'd understood that more fully when I started my game but I do now!

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 27

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/29/2014 7:35:42 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I believe I stopped all subs but the ones with the planes and perhaps the transports. I try and keep my subs away from his patrol planes.

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)

Post #: 28

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/29/2014 10:42:15 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

... but I'm going wild with the Tojos right now.

A common tactic for many IJ players, but not one I suscribe to. Tojo's will not hold up well against Corsairs or TBolts ... you need Franks (or better) for those. I reiterate my premise: the total number of AC that the IJ can build in a game is more or less fixed; building Tojo's means you cannot build as many Franks ...

I definitely build Tojo, it is a far superior plane to the Oscar in every way except range. Frank is better and then you need to settle upon a 4th gen fighter for the IJA (Ki-83, Ki-202, Ki-94 are the usual suspects)

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 29

RE: Japanese economy (wyrmm look if you wish) - 1/30/2014 1:33:27 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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I am listening. I've nearly completely shut down A6nM production and greatly reduced Tojo mfg., but I'm still repairing Tojo factories for later use when I may need to produce a lot in short order. I'm converting Zero sqds. to Claudes where convenient and for training in order to increase the replacement pool for A6M2s. Frank is a long way off, though, and at the rate I'm losing here I may never see that day. I'm hoping to leave most of the base protection to Jack and George and believe I will have sufficiently trained crews in reserve for that. That leaves the Tojos to do all the fighting and I have an inexhaustible pool of trained pilots for them (I think).

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 30