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- 1/30/2003 10:45:58 AM   
Sonny

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]I do not think that mines are the issue, as much as thier use. Offensive minefields are a pain in the a$$, and can cause you more trouble than the enemy. It is the absolute worst thing for your own ships to hit a mine.

Yes, laying mines fields willy-nilly around the Solomons (USN or IJN) makes for a less than enjoyable experience. But it is a decision a player has to make, and can have bad consequences.

The fact is they are not a "silver bullet" at stopping the enemy, but a major league nuisance. And they can create a major problem for your own operations in the area, sometimes more so than the enemy for which they are intended. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not their use but who they affect. You got APs invading - fine blow the hell out of them with mines. You got a bombardment group offshore then they should not hit mines - neither should surface combat TFs.

Not an expet on the South Pacific (or anything else for that matter) but I don't really know of any bombardments thwarted by mines or surface engagements won by mines.

And in WitP with 50 mile hexes...

:)

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 31
- 1/30/2003 12:07:51 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sonny
[B]Not their use but who they affect. You got APs invading - fine blow the hell out of them with mines. You got a bombardment group offshore then they should not hit mines - neither should surface combat TFs.

Not an expet on the South Pacific (or anything else for that matter) but I don't really know of any bombardments thwarted by mines or surface engagements won by mines.

And in WitP with 50 mile hexes...

:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed

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"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 32
- 1/30/2003 6:20:15 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
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From: Orland FL
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I've got bombarment fleets hitting mines on my list of things to work on.

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


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Post #: 33
- 1/31/2003 1:10:21 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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[QUOTE]I've got bombarment fleets hitting mines on my list of things to work on.[/QUOTE]

Why? :D

It invalidates the concept of mining a port when the guy can stand off outside of the minefield and completely destroy your base!

We are talking about a 30 mile hex ... It is not like the ships sat 29.9 miles away and lobbed shells at a specific target.

The average night naval combat occurs in the 2000-5000 yard range. That should be WELL within the range of a minefield protecting a large port.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 34
- 1/31/2003 1:24:11 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
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From: Orland FL
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I think there should still be a chance but my experience is that Bombardment TF hit more than their fair share of mines since the last patch.

Also, just because its on the list does not mean it will be worked on.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


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Post #: 35
- 1/31/2003 1:24:49 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
See attached.

Attachment (1)

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


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Post #: 36
- 1/31/2003 1:43:01 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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[QUOTE]I think there should still be a chance but my experience is that Bombardment TF hit more than their fair share of mines since the last patch.[/QUOTE]

Looking at the logic, a Bombardment TF with Retire option has more pressing concerns about getting into position, shooting and fleeing before the sun comes up. Spotting mines in the darkness is not realistic at all, so the higher chance to hit them certainly makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps this reduction should only apply to TF's set not to retire (plans to cruise to the DH and stick around for a while and hammer the target over the course of a few days).

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 37
Are we forgetting? - 2/1/2003 12:18:31 AM   
Veldor


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No one has mentioned the number of mines as a factor? Perhaps the hexes the TF is entering and subsequently repeatedly having DD's hit mines in... was a VERY heavily mined hex.

Perhaps, as well, it was even re-mined by the enemy between occurance one and occurance two.

Not that my opinion counts more than anyone else but I think MINES work perfectley as they should and are much more bug free than other more critical areas of the game.

So I for one say leave Mines as they are.

The only enhancement I'd like to see is a current mine count per hex (even if only approx or perhaps with the same color coding as bases, light, medium, dark based on level of mining)....

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 38
- 2/1/2003 3:45:26 AM   
crsutton


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Sigh......Poor Nomad, we shall miss him greatly.

I do like the idea of color coding a hex for mine density. I really have a hard time keeping track of where and how many mines that I have laid. Of course this coding would only be seen for your mines.

Basically, I agree. Mines seem to work pretty well now. They don't seem to be overly dangerous and add a nice element to the game.

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Post #: 39
Nomad - 2/1/2003 4:04:20 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I was both surprised and sorry to see Nomad depart. We have been posting to the same forums for well over a year. (We used to post quite often in the Pac War forum)

Nomad, Don't take the game so hard. I have experienced both triumph and disaster in UV and really they are both the same. If one game goes the wrong way. Take the experience into the next. And if someone posts something you feel is offensive just let them know.

(and I know some turns, in games where you have devoted a great deal of time and effort are heartbreaking)

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 40
- 2/1/2003 4:06:06 AM   
PzB74


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From: No(r)way
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I do wonder whether Nomad really retired from UV because of this mine affair. In the game we played he only had a few DD's hit mines. Then he quit our scen 17 game as the US 2 turns before my invasion aramada was about to land at Noumea and had beaten back his air strikes and cut down his CAP.

This happened at the very same time as he officially retired from all UV gaming on this thread - just a couple of days after he started several new UV games and said he was totally addicted to UV.

He wrote a short thx & goodbye note and didn't even reply to my next email. A dismal end to a very interesting game we had played 119 turns of.

I was very dissappointed about this, and I don't really pitty him.
Winning or loosing isn't important - standing the distance is!

Honestly, I got annoyed by getting abandoned without even being told why! Was it me, our game, the mine issue?
Bah...

Not sure how many others felt bad about hurting Nomad with their comments, but I don't think anyone should. Leaving a lot of people feeling this way without even explaning isn't the way to behave.

Fortunately Crocky took up the glove and replaced the CinC that abandoned ship and will now try to turn the Japanese tide threatening to overrun the South Pacific!
(This is one of the cases were a change of passwords would have come in handy...)

Now that's what I call guts!
Cheers, this beer's on me Crocky :)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
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(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 41
- 2/1/2003 5:06:30 AM   
Veldor


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From: King's Landing
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by PzB
[B]I was very dissappointed about this, and I don't really pitty him.
Winning or loosing isn't important - standing the distance is!
[/B][/QUOTE]

I won't even begin to claim I know why a particular person would drop out of all UV games and stop playing, but as I've said before "people like games they are good at".

There are so many here that have played UV since day one and play it religiously in 5+ games at the same time. Many others this isn't true for.

If your not careful about the opponents you select, it is easy for someone to start blaming errors in the game for their lack of success, whether they are true or not.

Everyone has a different opinion of what experienced, expert level, or even beginner means.... That's why I would prompt Matrix to maintain a "UV Ladder" of sorts, so that players can more easily select opponents at their desired level....

Of course, some are "immune" to this issue, I would like to think I am one of those... but I would still argue there is an element of truth in it for any of us, whether its conscious or sub-conscious... It's just part of human nature...

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 42
- 2/2/2003 3:22:10 PM   
Nomad


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Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
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I feel the need to make a statement and I think this is as good a place as any.

First, I want to appologize to the five people I had UV PBEM games with, especially John.

I sometimes suffer extreme negitive mood swings. When they occur, every negitive thing gets greatly magnified. I know when it is happening but I am unable to do anything about it. It has been over 3 years since I had a major swing like this. The one three years ago cost me my job, my car, my house, and my girlfriend. This one was not that bad, but if I didn't have some understanding and helpful friends it might have been worse.

I go into a depressed state and then some major triger sets things into motion and I spiral downward. I have no medical insurance or money so I really do not know what the root cause is and will probably never know.

The major trigger had nothing to do with any of my PBEM games or anything said in this forum, it came from real life.

I do not ask anyone for forgiveness, just understand that we all have problems that others don't know about.

Again I appologize for anything I said or did.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 43
- 2/2/2003 4:02:15 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
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From: No(r)way
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Glad to hear from you Ken and sorry to hear about your problem!
It takes a good deal to return and tell about it.

So I'd like to be the first to welcome you back, hope you're going to stay with us!

If you want to play another game, just send me an email and we'll be right back on track in no time :)

Best Regards

John

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 44
Welcome back. - 2/2/2003 7:58:21 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
:)

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 45
- 2/3/2003 10:57:15 AM   
wobbly

 

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From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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An interesting real life problem encroaching on serious non-real life issues - **** real life!

As a question, and I think it is alluded to but am unsure, previous to this patch would the DD have just hit the 1st mine? Now it spots the first mine and manages to explode it, but misses finding the 2nd and hits it?
I have seen escorts in transport TF's exploding mines - these are not in an MSW TF but are still sweeping, or at least destroying those they see.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 46
- 2/3/2003 12:17:58 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

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http://pigtrail.uark.edu/people/rcordell/Defense/minewar.html

"Oropesa Sweep

This is the "O" gear referred to in all of the deck logs of the USS DEFENSE. It consisted of a single wire with a torpedo-shaped float (a paravane) attached to the end. Out near the paravane was a device called an "otter" — consisting of an array of angled fins that pulled down on the end of the sweep and kept it at the proper depth. The length of wire between the paravane and the otter was called the "pendant." There was also a "depressor" up near the ship, suspended on a length of "depressor wire." This was used to pull the end of the sweep wire nearest the ship down to the desired depth. There were also cutters spaced along the sweep wire that would sever the chains holding the mines, allowing them to float to the surface and be shot and exploded by the mine disposal ships."

http://www.warships1.com/

"Similar to other underwater weapons, the Japanese did not spend much energy on mines prior to World War II. This was mainly because mines were considered to be "defensive" weapons and so were not of value to an "offensive" minded Navy.

Almost all Japanese mines were of Hertz Horn construction. No magnetic (influence) mines were developed although a number of British A Mark I - IV mines captured at Singapore were laid off Balikapan in 1945. A shore-controlled mine with an acoustic detector was developed late in 1944 and 144 were laid across the entrance to Tokyo Bay.

Triggering or Fuzes

As mentioned above, the Japanese used Hertz Horns almost exclusively. Each horn contained acid. Contact with the horn broke open the acid container which energized a battery and exploded the mine. During the war a variation was developed that replaced the acid horns with switches that activated when a ship hit the horn. By definition, horned mines were short ranged weapons and fields needed to be densely packed to be effective against shipping."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Perfectly logical for a DD supporting minesweepers to see (and shoot/explode) mines cleared by MSW's. Moored contact mines were what was primarily by the IJN. The MSW's cuts the cable, it floats to the surface, gets missed by the lookouts...the trailing DD sees and shoots (or sometimes eats it) it. Dangerous work, but that's why so many mine warfare ships and mine field tenders were casualties during WW2.

Not unusual either BTW, for ships to see and explode or hit mines whose moorings had broken, especially after storms. Not to mention "drift mines" being used extensively in confined waters.

Incidentally, while I might be mistaken, I seem to recall reading that the "hasty mine fields" the US DMS's were laying in 'The Slot" during the UV/GC time period were composed of Mk7 "Drift Mines".

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 47
Very interesting - 2/4/2003 1:00:49 AM   
demonterico


Posts: 292
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From: Seattle WA
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Thanks Juliet.

I never cease to be amazed by the depth of knowledge available here in these forums. I also love the great comradery here. Everyone speaks their opinion without any acrimony to follow. I enjoy the forums as much as I enjoy playing UV. I also appreciate the participation by the folks from Matrix. Thats real nice.

Nomad congratulations for having the courage to come back and speak up. Any problem is best faced head on.

Now back to the Solomon Sea.

_____________________________

The world has never seen a more impressive demonstration of the influence of sea power upon history. Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and the dominion of the world. -- Alfred Thayer Mahan

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 48
- 2/4/2003 5:48:05 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
My brother is bi-polar. Don't know if you are as well but I am sorry for my remark. Take care of yourself.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 49
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