RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

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RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 12:20:17 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It seems to me if you want to destroy industry, fires are the way to go. Don't bomb the oil directly, bomb the manpower on it.

I have always bombed Oil directly since many of those bases also have Resources and I don't want to waste Fire effort on that. Japan is floating in Resources. But your results will make me re-look at Borneo. I don't think Miri has any Manpower, but I don't recall the others.

Adding after looking at map:

Yeah, the major oil bases other than Soerbaja and PBang don't have Manpower, so firebombing is out. I've never bombed PBang as I still have it in both games. In Lokasenna's game I'm pushed back out of range of Soerbaja. He has northern Oz.

Also I misremembered the map. I didn't mean Padang to PBang or Padang-to-Lahat. I meant Benkoelen. Some of that route is on rails.

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Post #: 31

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 4:09:36 PM

pontiouspilot

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Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

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Post #: 32

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 4:28:49 PM

Mike McCreery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

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Post #: 33

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 4:59:11 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

It goes against the historical mindset of the ABDA forces and the whole "Malay Barrier" plan. The plan was for them to stop the Japanese advance cold, not provide a rear-guard for scorched earth.

Once Japan takes the hex, however, it's open season. I just found it very, very cold to firebomb citizens who had been under Dutch rule the day prior in order to harm the oil production.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilota

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

Few wins? More like none. If the Allies could destroy the most economically critical hex in the first fortnight of gameplay, there'd be no point fighting the war.

(in reply to pontiouspilot)

Post #: 34

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 5:13:08 PM

mind_messing

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Jan 27th, 1942

North Pacific

The Mini-KB is further rumbled by a lone freighter, while is promptly sunk. They'll turn north now to whack Adak, before moving east to meet the oiler and cover the Adak invasion force.

A couple of American task-forces are in-theater, and should hopfully be sunk tomorrow.

Central Pacific

Our AMC raider jumps the convoy, finding a big xAP north-east of Pago Pago escorted by a patrol boat. A couple of shells are fired over two battles that leaves the American xAP burning. We have another AMC and a submarine vectoring in. The enemy ship is carrying troops, likely a Marine Defence Battalion bound for Pago Pago.

South-West Pacific

Port Moresby is nearing a level four airstrip. After this, we'll focus on forts. The remaining fraction of the 4th Division is to be dropped off at the base to provide the garrison for the time being. We'll probably swap the 4th Division for a Mixed Brigade in the near future, and use the 4th for the regions reaction force.

Eastern DEI

The oil beings to flow, as the British disapear. The 65th Brigade looks set to seize Koepang tomorrow, while a regiment is set to invade Denpasser within the next few days to establish a big airbase in easy sweep range of Java.

Koepang is becoming critical, as we need to get a look at Darwin. The HQ has been changed to ABDA, so it may be the last bastion for the British and Dutch aircraft in the DEI.

Western DEI

Fires at Palambang die down to two digits as more air support comes ashore. We've plenty of fighters here now, and recon and bomber units have been moved in. Batavia only reports bombers in the base, so we'll run a risky unescorted raid to hit the cities airstrip and port.

Malaya

Everything that the IJAAF has that can carry a bomb will attack Singapore tomorrow as the IJA units on the ground attack again. The British are on their knees, so hopefully they can carry the day tomorrow and allow the units to move on to more important targets.

Minesweepers are one day out from the base, and transport shipping another day out, with even more shipping a week out. The hope is a quick landing on Java in mid-Febuary and Java cleared by March.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:43:27 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 5:38:50 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/11/2014 6:42:42 PM >

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RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 5:41:32 PM

Miller

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How is the air war over Singapore going? Has he sent the AVG or other fighter sqds there?

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Post #: 37

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 5:52:53 PM

Miller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

Not really. The Allies ability to strike back and inflict losses earlier than in the real war is more than balanced out by the Japs ability to put up a much tougher fight after 1942 than they did. My point is that if the Allies follow the course of action of Lokasenna and succeed then very few games will go past the end of 1942. Sad but true...

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 38

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 6:17:25 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

The Palambang debate is interesting in that there's no clear cut solution that solves everything. If Japan takes extra time to isolate Palambang before capture, it will lose the time to take advantage of the amphib bonus elsewhere. The critical point is that Japan needs Palambang.

From my point of view, I ran an acceptable risk, but made the critical mistake in not letting the Dutch engineers repair the airstrip for me before I landed. If I had done that, chances are the Allied bombing raids would have been so disrupted as to have little effect, and if I'd sent more AA, they'd have endured some unsustainable losses.

That said, the results gained from the numbers involved under the circumstances seemed quite out of whack to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

How is the air war over Singapore going? Has he sent the AVG or other fighter sqds there?

Singapore has been well-suppressed since the end of January, there were a few early sweeps that met resistance, but the bulk of the British fighters were sent to Java and Koepang. I suspect the bulk have either escaped to Burma or been sent to Darwin.

The AVG remained in Burma till late December, where I was quite happy to let them stay. The only engagement with the AVG was between some Oscar Ia's and the early Tojo's that ended up with a slight victory for the IJAAF.

On the whole, few sweeps have really been contested. The big frontline Oscar Ic and Zero units are used for little else bar sweeping (and the occasional LRCAP), while CAP and escort duties are filled with the smaller units.

Hell, OPS losses are as big a killer as Allied CAP has been. That's no suprise, considering that I bounce my Zero groups around constantly to provide overwhelming local superiority (which, I think, has been the key difference between our games), though they're watched closely so that fatigue doesn't go above twenty.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 39

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 6:45:26 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

Not really. The Allies ability to strike back and inflict losses earlier than in the real war is more than balanced out by the Japs ability to put up a much tougher fight after 1942 than they did. My point is that if the Allies follow the course of action of Lokasenna and succeed then very few games will go past the end of 1942. Sad but true...

I'd have to side with the Bull on this one, surprisingly.

Palembang wasn't taken in January 42, but in mid-Feb. If in the game the Japanese player decides to do that, it his responsibility to defend it from the Allies forces in the area. Even the small contingent of troops at Palembang in the war recaptured the Pladjoe refinery and set the oil stores ablaze before succumbing to counters by the Japanese para-troopers.

We know the Japanese need it to play through the game to 45. We know it has to be taken early but defended. The Japanese have quite a few decisions that they can make that counter history, and it's up to the Allies to counter them as best they can, I feel. It's up to the Japanese player to make sure they don't succeed in destroying the oil. So maybe that makes it harder for fancy second tier invasions of OZ or India or deep So Pac. Why not?

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/11/2014 7:48:11 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 40

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 8:21:39 PM

Mike McCreery

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quote:

The Palambang debate is interesting in that there's no clear cut solution that solves everything. If Japan takes extra time to isolate Palambang before capture, it will lose the time to take advantage of the amphib bonus elsewhere. The critical point is that Japan needs Palambang.

I disagree with this statement.

All the Japanese need is a base on Sumatra and they dont need the amphib bonus to make an assault. Palembang is not important until you actually get close to needing the oil as long as it is locked down and made harmless.

There have been multiple ways shown to defend Palembang but not trying to take it early is the most effective obviously.

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Post #: 41

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 8:46:36 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

The Palambang debate is interesting in that there's no clear cut solution that solves everything. If Japan takes extra time to isolate Palambang before capture, it will lose the time to take advantage of the amphib bonus elsewhere. The critical point is that Japan needs Palambang.

I disagree with this statement.

All the Japanese need is a base on Sumatra and they dont need the amphib bonus to make an assault. Palembang is not important until you actually get close to needing the oil as long as it is locked down and made harmless.

There have been multiple ways shown to defend Palembang but not trying to take it early is the most effective obviously.

You need more than just any base on Sumatra, I think. You certainly need a base close enough to interdict any shipping to both Oosthaven and Palambang, and there aren't many bases suitable for such a purpose that are good to do this on Dec 7th.

(in reply to Mike McCreery)

Post #: 42

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 10:11:46 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

Not really. The Allies ability to strike back and inflict losses earlier than in the real war is more than balanced out by the Japs ability to put up a much tougher fight after 1942 than they did. My point is that if the Allies follow the course of action of Lokasenna and succeed then very few games will go past the end of 1942. Sad but true...

And I continue to point out that what Lokasenna did was not pre-ordained. It was bad play by Japan. There were multiple ways to ensure it did not happen. I agree that having PBang burned down in January is a blow to any Japanese effort. But it doesn't have to happen.

I also consider the trade-off to the Allies' ability to fight back right away to be the amphib bonus, not anything that happens in the out years. Other than aircraft building, which can be somewhat addressed by, yes, destroying fuel and thus HI points, in Scenario 1 Japan has a pretty accurate out year experience.

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The Moose

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Post #: 43

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 10:24:10 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Personally I don't find bombing oil this early gamey...to me it is simply performing the scorched earth Dutch engineers should have done anyway!

I agree. Given any amount of time the Allies should be able to reduce Palembang to a smoking ruin before the Japanese ever had a change to capture the oil fields.

But it is not in the game and would likely result in very few wins for the Japanese so I guess it is a game balance issue.

It's not a game balance issue. It's a play issue. It is entirely possible for the Japan player to ensure PBang is not firebombed in the first months of the game. It's a matter of choices and tactics.

It seems some Japan players have an attitude that they should have free reign to build a defense and capture what they need to play on at least until the bonus ends. After April 1 the game is on IOW. No, the game is on starting on 12/7/41. I offered four ways to keep PBang safe. There are more than that. But none of them involve getting PBang 100% safely in the first two weeks. If a Japan player does that--and it's certainly possible--they have to accept the risk of retaliation.

The Palambang debate is interesting in that there's no clear cut solution that solves everything. If Japan takes extra time to isolate Palambang before capture, it will lose the time to take advantage of the amphib bonus elsewhere. The critical point is that Japan needs Palambang.

From my point of view, I ran an acceptable risk, but made the critical mistake in not letting the Dutch engineers repair the airstrip for me before I landed. If I had done that, chances are the Allied bombing raids would have been so disrupted as to have little effect, and if I'd sent more AA, they'd have endured some unsustainable losses.

That said, the results gained from the numbers involved under the circumstances seemed quite out of whack to me.

IMO there are only two must-have first phase objectives: Singers and PBang. For me first phase ends on Feb. 28th. That's me. But Japan has to do those. One opens the Burma war and more oil, plus provides ship repair weeks closer to the front. The other is self-obvious.

The amphib bonus is not impacted one way or the other by PBang. You need to get it before April 1, and earlier is better, but you have to allocate the assets. A large load dumped on Benkoelen will suffice; the transports can go away afterward. Taking Lahat opens the RR and the pile can be brought forward. Or go up river, dump on PBang itself, seal the oil flow from Djambi, and begin to attrit the defenders. The internal PBang oil stops that day. That's less than a week for maybe 20 transports to cycle back for Job 2 farther east.

In this game you're dinking around in the Aleutians, sending very large chunks at Timor, etc. Neither is as important as your oil.

It's my understanding from what you've said that you left Batavia alone. Batavia is a big air base on 12/7. Has supply. Can swap planes with Soerbaja in one turn. Has big base forces. Taking PBang without CAP while Batavia is healthy is dangerous. Taking Batavia is not a Phase One target. But you can't ignore it.

The issue of the damage dealt is different. I agree that's some sweet Allied shooting. I've never seen anything like it. But PBang deserved some fighters.

I've beat this to death. Pax.

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Post #: 44

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 10:27:05 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You need more than just any base on Sumatra, I think. You certainly need a base close enough to interdict any shipping to both Oosthaven and Palambang, and there aren't many bases suitable for such a purpose that are good to do this on Dec 7th.

That's what the IJN is for. Not everything in life is airplanes.

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 45

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 11:13:20 PM

mind_messing

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RE: Taking Palambang

The operation was sound. Lokansenna had commited significant assets to Koepang, the ABDA air forces had been severely mauled here, and recon consistantly showed Batavia as having only two-dozen or so aircraft.

The invasion compositon was decent. One infantry regiment plus a SNLF, with AA and air support. The IJN was out in force to block and surface interdiction.

The key failure of the plan was that it took too long to get the airstrip operation. Part of this was to do with a lack of engineers on the base hex itself, as well as me not letting the Dutch rebuild it for me before invading. Plenty of fighters were on LRCAP duty, as well as planes flying from a damaged Palambang itself. Enough to disrupt the raids, but not signficantly dent the attacking planes, but at the end of the day, Oscars and Nates won't down B-17s.

The damage is done. It's a sting, not a mortal wound. Lesson learned: don't expect CAP to fly from a trashed base.

RE: Timor

If Lokansenna wants to send ABDA troops to die on Timor rather than prolong the seige of Batavia or Soerabaja, he can. I've always held that interupting your enemy when he's making a mistake is a bad idea.

As for significant chunks being sent here, there's the 65th Brigade and a few SNLF's that started off in-theater.

RE: Aleutians

The chance to kill USN surface assets when they won't be under LBA doesn't happen very often in my experiance, and I'd be happy to sink them. Adak is the only thing worth fighting for in the Aleutians, and I don't plan on doing any more than taking it, throwing some engineers and mines on it, and wait for Lokasenna to come take it back.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 46

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/11/2014 11:18:27 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You need more than just any base on Sumatra, I think. You certainly need a base close enough to interdict any shipping to both Oosthaven and Palambang, and there aren't many bases suitable for such a purpose that are good to do this on Dec 7th.

That's what the IJN is for. Not everything in life is airplanes.

True, but I can produce lots of planes. Not so for the IJN's ships.

It's probably a flaw, for me. I do my best to keep my ships out of doing a job that can be done by LBA, even if it would be simplier for the IJN to do it!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 47

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/12/2014 11:01:47 AM

Spidery

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quote:

The damage is done. It's a sting, not a mortal wound. Lesson learned: don't expect CAP to fly from a trashed base.

A very minor sting.

You lost 140 oil wells. In a game where refineries produce supply that will be easy to repair so you lost about 98,000 produced oil.

That is 11 days of production from Palembang or less than 5 days total from the whole of the DEI. If this is part of an accelerated advance to capture everywhere quickly then you are ahead of the game.

In some ways, for the Allies to bomb Miri is worse. Because it starts damaged it will take longer to repair so the loss is more costly and you need to ship supply in and can't rely upon the base supply production.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 48

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/13/2014 6:35:02 PM

mind_messing

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Jan 28th to Feb 1st, 1942

North Pacific

Mixed result here. Mini-KB gets a decent haul, sinking the Helena and wounding the St Louis, as well as putting some holes in auxillary ships plying their trade in Dutch Harbour.

The Adak invasion goes in, and quickly turns in to a farce. Human error prevents the Yamashiro from merging with the amphibious task force. The entire force runs right into a minefield, and I realize to my horror that E class ships can't function as minesweepers. Undetered by the game mechanics, two E's try to do it regardless, which leads to one sunk and the other badly damaged.

Spurred on by the fine show of martial sprit, two merchantmen try the same, and are severely damaged for their troubles. The Yamashiro turns up and shows them how to do it properly, hitting a mine for two points of system damage. A Japanese DD, not to be outdone, sinks itself on a mine. A third merchantmen gets ravaged by CD guns landing the troops.

On the bright side, the 80th Regiment is ashore intact and will take the base from the single Allied coastal gun unit. I wish I'd confirmed what unit was defending Adak, as the 2nd Raiding Regiment is en-route to Attu and could have taken the base without any losses. Still, the only real-estate in the Aleutains worth holding is now ours.

The Mini-KB will bomb Dutch Harbour once more before retiring to the Home Islands while patrol planes keep a keen watch for the USN carriers.

Central Pacific

Taubitea makes level one airstrip. Apart from that, it's been quiet.

South-West Pacific

A naval guard unit lands at Koumac to provide a recon-in-force of New Caledonia. They'll march for Noumea to try and seize the base, and hopfully keep the Guards Mixed Brigade (currently at Rabual) on hand to push the Americans off of Luganville.

A IJN light crusier force will raid Luganville shortly, as patrol planes from Ndeni report an xAP and a DD unloading.

Eastern DEI

Koepang is reduced, and expected to fall any day. Recon units from Timor scout out Darwin, which has a considerable force of aircraft and troops defending it. The IJA is already examining the possibility of landing at Wyndham and cutting Darwin off by land to destroy these troops.

Western DEI

Fairly quiet. Other than the clean-up of holdout garrisons on Sumatra, this theater hasn't seen much action. Sweeps of Batavia haven't been contested, and recon planes start to scout out possible landing sites for the invasion of Java.

Malaya

With the fall of Singapore, this theater is declared closed! The Imperial Guards Division is sent along with another division to Burma to assist in securing that theater, with accompanying air units attached. One regiment is dispatched to assist IJN paratroopers in clearing Northern Sumatra, while the remainer will be used to seize Java.

Burma

A single division knocks Rangoon's fortification levels down to one, while two IJA armoured units rattle around the upper region of the country. The hope is to quickly close the mountain passes from Burma to China and so keep the KMT army closed up in China for it's eventual destruction.

China

A feeble counter-attack at Sian is repulsed easily, while the bulk of the Northern Army Group is set to attack westwards on to the Chinese heartlands. A collection of armoured units is being sent to capture the remaining Chinese oil centers.

In Central China, the pursuit of the Changsha remanants has failed miserably, with the KMT outrunning the IJA despite regular air attacks. The lack of armoured units is blamed.

Southern China gets a much needed boost with the arrival of a tank regiment, which will hopefully be able to quickly seize bases on the rail lines and so facilitate fast transporation of the IJA to attack the Chinese heartlands from the south.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:43:39 PM >

(in reply to Spidery)

Post #: 49

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/18/2014 12:40:37 AM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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Feb 2nd to Feb 8th, 1942

I've found it hard to update the AAR for the past few days due to being busy, but I've made time for it today.

North Pacific

Things here quiet down, despite big Allied machinations on Dutch Harbour. A lot of auxillary ships are spotted, including AO's, but considering the short time after the Mini-KB's recent raid here, it screams "bait" to me.

For the moment, he can have Dutch Harbour and Umnak. I've a paratrooper regiment moving in to Attu, and a Naval Guard and AF unit heading for Kiska. The only real action is B-25s bombing the 80th Regiment on Adak, but I'm moving some Jake's in to provide CAP. They'll not shoot any down, but they'll be a nusiance till I can get some more boots on the ground here.

Limited offensive plans are the seizure of Umnak Island, which will strip the Allies of all decent potential airbases all the way back behind Dutch Harbour.

Central Pacific

Quiet. I've move a great many subs back from Pearl Harbour (where they've had limited success, torpedos sent in to only one tanker and some DD's so far) and will send them to the SWPAC area, where Allied ships seem to be concentrating.

This area still screams for engineers and garrison units, but the AF units will need to dig around the clock for the meantime.

South-West Pacific

The USN keeps itself busy around Luganville, which is just asking for a counter-counter invasion. However, the focus is on keeping the SRA secure, not galvanting around in the Pacific, so we're shelving any offensive plans till the DEI is cleared and Darwin is neutralized.

Engineers are sent to build up Buna as a support base for Rabual, though there's no air support at the base currently.

Horn Island turns in to a brutal little battle, as a Naval Guard unit clashes with the reinforced garrison of an Ozzie brigade. Bombers from Rabual will do their best to support, and hopefully I can either bombard the defenders to dust or reinforce my brave Naval Guard. I'd like the base, but not at an excessive cost.

Eastern DEI

With the fall of Koepang, the only significant ABDA presence in the region is the Dutch and American submarine force.

We're working on getting Koepang back in working order so that we can start the suppression of Darwin. Due to the significant numbers of fighers, bombers and ships in this hex, as well as the critical importance of the base in staving off the eventual Allied counter-attack through the southern DEI, we've decided to deploy the KB to smash the base. It's about a week out, and ASW assets are already scouring out the ocean in front of the prized Japanese carriers.

Hopefully, the KB's strike should co-incide with Koepang becoming operational, and the LBA can take over the suppression of Darwin, allowing troops to be landed in Northern Austrailia to capture the base.

Northern Austrailia

This theater offically opens with a Naval Guard fragment landing at Broome! Sadly, the theater opens in a farce, as the troops are ashore with a whole five supply points, and the cargo ship and escorting PB are sunk by a British crusier force.

We'll attack, and hopefully capture the base and some rice for our troops.

Western DEI

The two-pronged invasion of Java commences.

A regiment will land in the south of Java, to gain a foothold and a working airbase, while the main force from Singapore will land in the north, with the quick goal of getting close airbases to the main centers of Dutch resistance for the suppression and reduction of these fortresses.

The first troops are to be ashore by the 10th, and the main force will be landing in the north around Feb 15th.

Invasion of Java, supported by air from Makassar, Oosthaven, Palambang and Denpasser

Burma

A tank regiment destroys a British force at Lashio, taking the base, and not a moment too soon, as two Chinese LCU's are attacking the base from the east. The Japanese armour should be able to hold the Chinese back till reinforcements can arrive.

The main Burma force is about half-way through it's march from Thailand to Burma.

China

The KMT territory continues to shrink as the IJA pushes towards the Chinese interior. Sian becomes an operation IJAAF airbase, as does Changsha, and raids on the main KMT bases are planned.

Southern China is abandoned, as far as we can see, and a single IJA armoured unit will sweep up these bases, enabling the interior Chinese railroads to become operational.

Our plan of attack in Central China is simple. The Sian Army is pushing from the far north-east, while the Changsha Army is moving northwards to attack from the south. The KMT are expected to put up a stiff fight, for though they have lost a great many squads, large numbers of LCU's are still intact, having withdrawn with only light damage.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:43:45 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 50

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/19/2014 7:23:39 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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I'd love some contributions from the peanut gallery on the subject of defending the permimiter.

My intention is to have reserve units dispersed at various points to act as localized reaction forces for invasions, but there's a few areas where this won't be pratical.

My question is, what sort of force composition would you consider a respectable garrison for the following:

- Developed port and airbase
- Undeveloped but high-potential port and airbase
- Dot hex

Obviously it's impossible to defend everywhere in certain areas (CentPac, SWPAC, DEI ect), but I'd love some advice on assigning my meagre resources.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 51

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/20/2014 9:03:53 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

I'm not too keen on reserve forces. By the time you get them loaded and to the base that's being invaded the chances are the outcome will already have been decided. As to garrison sizes, it all depends on location, location and location. Far too many variables to consider to give a useful answer.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 52

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 2/25/2014 7:37:43 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

Feb 8th to Feb 18th, 1942

Quite some time since an update, but the game's tempo has changed far more than you'd think over just ten days.

North Pacific

More Japanese units begin to arrive here, including a flight of Zeros based on Attu. This theater is a buzz of activity on the Allied side, with Dutch Harbour and Umnak Island being a big destination for Allied shipping.

While we've excellent inteligence on Allied units in this theater, we're short on actual assets to commit to it as well as the willingness to do so. I see this theater as a deliberate attempt to divert Japanese resources. While I do hold the only real-estate worth having in this theater, ensuring that it doesn't become a needless drain on my resources will be a problem.

With the frontline being Adak, the defensive plans for this theater are not neglecting the rear areas, and a base force is en route to Efortu to start construction on defensive works in the Kuriles.

Central Pacific

Quiet, as usual. The Gilberts and Marshalls reverberate to the sound of engineers digging fortifications. Taibutea finally has dedicated engineers dispatched to it, though the Air HQ will not follow for some time.

South-West Pacific

Some sort of Allied assault (either paratrooper or the ragged remains of the Port Moresby invasion force) retakes Milne Bay, destroying the 3 plane Jake unit on search here and sending the AV in port scurring for Rabaul. For the present, they'll be left as they are, no forces are on hand to quickly re-take it.

Horn Island remains contested. The two Naval Guard units cannot knock the Austrailians off the island while the Austrailians lack the strength to drive out the Japanese. Again, hamstrung by the lack of local forces, the status quo is maintained for the time being.

Operation Carillon is launched in this theater, with the short term goal of clearing out New Caledonia. The Guards Mixed Brigade will land, take Noumea and then reload to secure Horn Island. The KB will screen the landing, and conduct a raid against Suva once the transports withdraw.

The long term goal of the operation is to leave the American bastion at Luganville isolated until forces can be freed from the Phillipines to retake it.

Austrailia

Sweeps against Darwin have broken the fighter strength of the Allies in this region, and the only thing preventing continued bombing is the lack of supply at Koepang. This will be redeemed shortly.

The first troops to set foot on Austrailian soil proper will land in about a week to capture Broome, paving the way for a airbase to be established to support operations on the Austrailian mainland.

Western DEI

Java is invaded with minimal opposition. IJA units are heading to clear out Batavia, while armoured units have cut the island in two. Airbases have been established enabling IJAAF bombers to work close to the frontline, but there has been no opposition in the air above Java whatsoever.

The utmost speed will be required in clearing out Java in order to allow maximium advantage to be gleaned from the amphib bonus.

China

The entire Chinese army appears to be making a break for Burma. While this is not an unexpected move, it nevertheless causes concern. Combined with large numbers of British and Indian troops seen moving to Cox's Bazzar, it appears that the Chinese will be making a fight outside of China.

The IJA forces will do all they can to slow the escape of the KMT forces, with the capture of the Chinese industrial centers taking secondary precedence.

Burma

IJA troops begin to swarm in to this theater, backed up by what Thai units are not needed for garrison duty.

Operation plans in this area are simple - the Royal Thai Army units will move to the north, to dig in and hold back the Chinese troops, while the IJA divisions will clear Rangoon. Once Rangoon falls, the situation will be re-evaluated, but the importance of preventing the bulk of a largely intact Chinese Army marching to India is apparent.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:43:57 PM >

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 53

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 1:58:54 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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Feb 19th to Feb 26th, 1942

After taking a few days out for some real life demands, I plunge right back in to the game, things remaining as interesting as always.

North Pacific

The Allies have the balance of power in this area, with B-17's paired up with some West Coast trash (including Bolo's!) bombing the Japanese on Adak. The IJN is hamstrung by undeveloped bases, and it falls to some Jakes to disrupt the Allied raids.

We've finally gotten some engineers up to this area, so a airstrip will be constructed up to level two or three on Kiska Island. Once this is done, most of the engineers will be sent to Adak, to build another level three airstrip and forts.

The Allies will be able to take all this if they want, so it's in my interest to make it as costly as I can. However, there's no sense in building bases up for the Allies, so I'll build what I absolutely need and no more. Once there are some airstrips capable of conducting offensive operations, there's a plethora of General Defence restricted air units ready to fly in.

With the future in mind, a base force is sent to Eforutu, to start building up that base to be the forward port for the defence of the Kuriles.

Central Pacific

Reinforcements finally start arriving in this theater, with naval guard units being shipped out to Marcus Island, as well as bases in the Marshalls and Gilberts. Token forces, but enough to ensure that a landing is not unopposed. Still short on air-support for most bases, but the Central Pacific is on the hind-teat for 1941.

Taibutea gets engineers at last. A level four airstrip will be constructed, before the engineering group (two Naval Construction Bns) get sent on a tour of the nearby islands to build forts. Taibutea might get a brigade sized formation and some heavy guns. I've a mind to send one of the garrison units that withdraw in 1943 to the island, so that the unit evaporates as the islands strategic value does.

The engineers organic to the base forces and air units here are doing a commendable job, with forts climbing across all the bases.

South-West Pacific

The Noumea invasion goes off perfectly. The KB stumbles on to Force Z, badly damaging it and sending it scurrying, and several troop and cargo ships are sunk around Luganville. However, the Allied build-up in this area won't be stopped by this.

The Guards Mixed Brigade is safely on New Caledonia, and will hopefull clear that island, providing the south pincer against Luganville. To the north, Ndeni makes level 1 airbase, and will sheild the rest of the Lower Solomons from the Allied advance.

Austrailia

A regiment and the 65th Brigade land at Derby. The regiment will push to Wyndham, while the 65th Brigade will clear Broome.

Darwin is still a massive Allied stronghold, and our 1942 offensive will seek to destroy the Allied troops here and seize a sizable chunk of Austrailia.

Java

The reduction of Batavia and Soerabaja is underway. Soerabaja is lightly defended, but too much for a single regiment to handle. Reinforcements are en-route from Minadano to assist in it's capture, while the big divisions clear Batavia.

Burma

Chinese units in the north of Burma face off with a Thai Division backed up by IJA armour, while two IJA divisions move to clear Rangoon. Air support and engineers units are still crawling across the border. Long-range recon has noted significant Allied concentrations around the Burma/India border, possibily including the AVG.

Home Islands

Air and floatplane groups have all be resized, resulting in a significant increase to the IJN training cadres. Large numbers of floatplane units are now training for ASW duties on obsolete planes, while the Jake units are being expended to upgrade the shipborn floatplane units (including submarines) as quickly as they roll off the production lines.

The reinforcement units begin to pour in. Most welcome are the Port Units that combine with a naval guard to form a base force. These units will be used to start development of regional defence hubs.

Preliminary hubs are: Eforutu, Tulagi, Koepang, Makassar, Sabang and Port Blair.

Question to the Gallery

What sort of ratio of troops to fortifications level seems best? I feel like going above level 6 forts for small units like naval guards is a waste, but due to the rules of atoll and island stacking limits forts seem nessissary.

Bascially, am I wasting supply to dig forts for Naval Guards?

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:44:13 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 54

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 2:21:32 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

Bascially, am I wasting supply to dig forts for Naval Guards?

I am pondering the same question....

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 55

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 2:45:19 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Question to the Gallery

What sort of ratio of troops to fortifications level seems best? I feel like going above level 6 forts for small units like naval guards is a waste, but due to the rules of atoll and island stacking limits forts seem nessissary.

Bascially, am I wasting supply to dig forts for Naval Guards?

I think so, at least past Level 3. It takes a very large supply commit to get to 6 at all. As an Allied player, if I find Level 6 on an atoll I'm going to bypass it. I may plaster it, but I'm not landing unless there's no other choice. Very few atolls leave no other choice.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 56

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 2:48:34 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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Re NorPac, it's interesting to see Lokasenna play the other side. The Aleutians have been a brawl in our game, and I think he's using some of the same techniques up there that have occurred in ours.

FWIW, Bolos are OK bombers in that theater. I've used them a fair bit with success.

I'd say the same thing I'd say to him if I wanted to give him a hand up there (I don't!): Study the map. The map is determinative in the Aleutians. And it does not in any way favor Japan.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 57

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 2:52:11 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

Bascially, am I wasting supply to dig forts for Naval Guards?

I am pondering the same question....

The problem as I see it is that Naval Guards look better than they are. 60 AV is decent, but they're brittle. No heavy guns or AFV's. Two naval guard units might be close to the AV of a IJA regiment, but the lack the lasting power.

One solution I'm considering is ersatz reigiments, consisting of a pair of Naval Guards with some IJA artillery units from Manchuria for some of the bigger islands. I'd consider forts as essential for these ersatz regiments, but I'm unsure about single Naval Guard units.

At the end of the day, they're not there to stop invasions on the beaches, they're there to make sure that the island isn't taken by paradrop or SST landed troops. They don't need forts to do what they're meant to do.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 58

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 4:14:29 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

At the end of the day, they're not there to stop invasions on the beaches, they're there to make sure that the island isn't taken by paradrop or SST landed troops. They don't need forts to do what they're meant to do.

I think that is the essence of the Naval Guard unit. Well put.

Island & Atoll defense is very hard. Their presence might delay the Americans 2-3 months so that he prepares troops, but other than that they are pretty weak without lot of supporting units.

But if you are going to use lots of supporting units why not pick a real combat unit instead of a Naval Guard?

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 59

RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/11/2014 4:40:42 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

At the end of the day, they're not there to stop invasions on the beaches, they're there to make sure that the island isn't taken by paradrop or SST landed troops. They don't need forts to do what they're meant to do.

But if you are going to use lots of supporting units why not pick a real combat unit instead of a Naval Guard?

There are a couple of considerations.

- IJA units big enough to be worthwhile on atolls (regimental size) are worth a great deal more when combined in to a division, and the Central Pacific and DEI soak units up.
- The good IJA Regiments all have good experience and morale levels, and having them be destroyed defending an atoll is a waste.
- Naval Guards are expendable, and there are plenty of them. They also have an excellent ratio of troops to AV (1800 odd troops to 60 AV if I remember correctly) so they're prime material for low-limits islands/atolls.
- Having a IJA unit cut off behind the Allied advance will hurt a great deal more than some Naval Guards.

Basically, the number of real combat units is tiny in comparison to the number of possible bases the Allies can take and develop for offensive operations. My thinking is that a ersatz combination of Naval Guards with IJA guns sitting behind some level 4+ forts might be able to make a decent defence.

Of course, this is only for those islands that are prime Allied targets and are not a major Japanese base.

What I'm thinking of is not of a "best unit composition to defend an island/atoll" but more along the lines of a "most cost-effective composition to defend an island/atoll"

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 60

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