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RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

 
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RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/13/2014 5:40:15 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Question to the Gallery

What sort of ratio of troops to fortifications level seems best? I feel like going above level 6 forts for small units like naval guards is a waste, but due to the rules of atoll and island stacking limits forts seem nessissary.

Bascially, am I wasting supply to dig forts for Naval Guards?


I think so, at least past Level 3. It takes a very large supply commit to get to 6 at all. As an Allied player, if I find Level 6 on an atoll I'm going to bypass it. I may plaster it, but I'm not landing unless there's no other choice. Very few atolls leave no other choice.


Level 3 seems a good rule of thumb to me. Enough to make an impact at a fairly cheap cost.

I think I'll expand the following Central Pacific bases to level 6 forts:
- Tabiteuea: Torpedo equipped base for the Lower Gilberts and a good bastion for defence. Level 6 forts, a Mixed Brigade and some arty should make this a nasty stronghold.
- Kwajalein & Eniwetok: Good port potentials. Kwajalein is the nexus for the defence of the Marshalls, but is chock full of support troops at present.
- Maloelap & Roi-Namur: Biggest airbases in the Marshalls.
- Ponape: Unsure about this one, but as a potentially good airbase close to Truk, it makes a tempting target.
- Guam, Tinian & Saipan: Pretty key to the defence of the Marianas. Pagan and Rota might be included on this list.
- Babeldoab: The last bastion before the Phillipines and a good forward base for the Allies.

A couple of smaller bases will get around level 4-5forts as well, namely Marcus and Wake Islands.

Thoughts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Re NorPac, it's interesting to see Lokasenna play the other side. The Aleutians have been a brawl in our game, and I think he's using some of the same techniques up there that have occurred in ours.

FWIW, Bolos are OK bombers in that theater. I've used them a fair bit with success.

I'd say the same thing I'd say to him if I wanted to give him a hand up there (I don't!): Study the map. The map is determinative in the Aleutians. And it does not in any way favor Japan.


The Aleutians would be a brawl in this game as well, if I was willing to satisfy Lokasenna and send assets up there. I've single old battleship and some second-rate destroyers to contest several Allied crusiers (read: things that the Allies have that are good and replacable) after I lost a modern light crusier covering the Adak invasion.

On the ground, there's nothing between Adak and Parashumio Jima bar a single IJA regiment, an IJA paratrooper unit and some air support and engineers. The North Pacific is held by a very thin crust and a great deal of air, and what's worse, it's on the hind teat until more critical areas are secured.

I fully agree with you concerning the Aleutians favouring the Allies. With Adak Island on the frontline (and in range of bombers from Alaska), the IJN doesn't have a decent port anywhere close to the frontline. As a stopgap, there's an AKE at Parashumio Jima (and I'll be sending an AO there as soon as possible) which will need to suffice until Eforutu is built to a respectable size. Even if I'd went all-out and captured everything up to Cold Bay, those bases would still be endangered from B-17 strikes from Alaska.

The Aleutians, IMO, is the best area for the Allies to fight Japan. Allied engineers can outbuild the Japanese, bomb them from bases secured from counter-strikes and enjoy several large ports and airbases close to the frotnline, as well as a supply line that is difficult to raid. Bascially, if you want to fight Japan anywhere in 1942, the Aleutians is where to do it. It magnifies the Allied advantages in engineering, ship quantity and long-range bombers and forces the Japanese to fight on undeveloped bases and commit assets that would cause much greater harm to the Allies elsewhere.

No matter what victories Japan has won elsewhere on the map, should the Allies make the jump from the Aleutians to the Kuriles successfully, it's a wound to Japan that will prove fatal unless redressed.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 61
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/13/2014 6:07:47 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		As a point of data I took Eniwetok in my AARed game in the early spring of 1942. It took until late October to get it to Level 6 forts, with a base force, a Seabee battalion, and a combat engineer unit working on those alone.

On NorPac, I have come to the conclusion that Japan shouldn't go there at all. Anything lost is a waste. Not only does the US have its best WC yard at its back, as well as the coast of Alaska to move supplies around though shallow water and under search cover most of the way, it starts with Dutch I. (an excellent port and terrible AF), and can take Umnak the first week (a great AF and terrible port.) Adak can be fortified very, very quickly if made a priority. I did that and Lokasenna has lost a full division there, plus three big secondary landing forces. The ships he's lost, including much of the MKB, are the only thing keeping me alive VP-wise as he dominates China, Burma, and northern Oz.

A lot of Japan players say "I'll take some and make him pay to re-take it." Maybe. But in 1943 and beyond holding Adak, Amchitka, or the rest to the west is a nice-to-have for the Allies. Jocke landed in Korea with Obvert still holding half the Aleutians. It was a backwater that cost Japan a lot of assets.

That said, if you flip the map that expanse of blue west of the chain is terrible water for the Allies until a lot later than 1942. It has NO advantages for them and many for Japan, due to distance, lack of carriers, and interlocking bases in the Kuriles. Yes, the Allies can barge into the Kuriles eventually. They can barge anywhere eventually is there's no auto-vic first. But any assets lost by Japan defending forward are a waste in the defense of the Kuriles. The approach angles to the Kuriles don't depend on the Aleutians. Para Jima can be attacked from Pearl. The key is to make it as hard on the Allies as possible when they get there. Building big, hairy air-bases in the western Aleutians is wasteful, and giving away ships there as well. I've had 4-5 BBs damaged in the Aleutians, at least three CAs, and about 7-8 CLs. Lots of DDs. Other than a bunch of old DDs and I think two CLs everything got back to Seattle and is repaired and re-forward, or repairing now. IJN losses have been much worse. And for what?

I think Loka. has made only one strategic error in our game and it's this one. Everywhere else he is kicking my can. The Aleutians look easy to a lot of Japan players and a lot of Allied players let them go. That's dumb. But Japan shouldn't want them either. Far better to make the Kuriles a wall. That's going to take a lot of time, a lot of supply, and a lot of engineers.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 62
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/13/2014 6:29:49 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

As a point of data I took Eniwetok in my AARed game in the early spring of 1942. It took until late October to get it to Level 6 forts, with a base force, a Seabee battalion, and a combat engineer unit working on those alone.

On NorPac, I have come to the conclusion that Japan shouldn't go there at all. Anything lost is a waste. Not only does the US have its best WC yard at its back, as well as the coast of Alaska to move supplies around though shallow water and under search cover most of the way, it starts with Dutch I. (an excellent port and terrible AF), and can take Umnak the first week (a great AF and terrible port.) Adak can be fortified very, very quickly if made a priority. I did that and Lokasenna has lost a full division there, plus three big secondary landing forces. The ships he's lost, including much of the MKB, are the only thing keeping me alive VP-wise as he dominates China, Burma, and northern Oz.

A lot of Japan players say "I'll take some and make him pay to re-take it." Maybe. But in 1943 and beyond holding Adak, Amchitka, or the rest to the west is a nice-to-have for the Allies. Jocke landed in Korea with Obvert still holding half the Aleutians. It was a backwater that cost Japan a lot of assets.

That said, if you flip the map that expanse of blue west of the chain is terrible water for the Allies until a lot later than 1942. It has NO advantages for them and many for Japan, due to distance, lack of carriers, and interlocking bases in the Kuriles. Yes, the Allies can barge into the Kuriles eventually. They can barge anywhere eventually is there's no auto-vic first. But any assets lost by Japan defending forward are a waste in the defense of the Kuriles. The approach angles to the Kuriles don't depend on the Aleutians. Para Jima can be attacked from Pearl. The key is to make it as hard on the Allies as possible when they get there. Building big, hairy air-bases in the western Aleutians is wasteful, and giving away ships there as well. I've had 4-5 BBs damaged in the Aleutians, at least three CAs, and about 7-8 CLs. Lots of DDs. Other than a bunch of old DDs and I think two CLs everything got back to Seattle and is repaired and re-forward, or repairing now. IJN losses have been much worse. And for what?

I think Loka. has made only one strategic error in our game and it's this one. Everywhere else he is kicking my can. The Aleutians look easy to a lot of Japan players and a lot of Allied players let them go. That's dumb. But Japan shouldn't want them either. Far better to make the Kuriles a wall. That's going to take a lot of time, a lot of supply, and a lot of engineers.


Good food for thought on the Northern Pacific. What you're saying about defending the Aleutians at the expense of the Kuriles rings true to me. What I have in the Aleutians now (nothing worth saving, in truth) is now written off to act as a screening force for the Kuriles build-up. Kiska Island will be build to level 2 airbase, some Kate's will be flown in, and the Aleutians will be on it's own.

I'll start afresh on the Kuriles. Eforutu and Para-Jima are already being built up, and I'll look to see what other bases have the potential to be decent.

I think to neglect the Aleutians entirely is a waste. They're undefended at the start of the game, and Adak makes a first-rate forward submarine base for the Allies. That said, Naval Guards instead of an IJA regiment would have been far more fitting

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 63
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/13/2014 6:52:46 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

As a point of data I took Eniwetok in my AARed game in the early spring of 1942. It took until late October to get it to Level 6 forts, with a base force, a Seabee battalion, and a combat engineer unit working on those alone.

On NorPac, I have come to the conclusion that Japan shouldn't go there at all. Anything lost is a waste. Not only does the US have its best WC yard at its back, as well as the coast of Alaska to move supplies around though shallow water and under search cover most of the way, it starts with Dutch I. (an excellent port and terrible AF), and can take Umnak the first week (a great AF and terrible port.) Adak can be fortified very, very quickly if made a priority. I did that and Lokasenna has lost a full division there, plus three big secondary landing forces. The ships he's lost, including much of the MKB, are the only thing keeping me alive VP-wise as he dominates China, Burma, and northern Oz.

A lot of Japan players say "I'll take some and make him pay to re-take it." Maybe. But in 1943 and beyond holding Adak, Amchitka, or the rest to the west is a nice-to-have for the Allies. Jocke landed in Korea with Obvert still holding half the Aleutians. It was a backwater that cost Japan a lot of assets.

That said, if you flip the map that expanse of blue west of the chain is terrible water for the Allies until a lot later than 1942. It has NO advantages for them and many for Japan, due to distance, lack of carriers, and interlocking bases in the Kuriles. Yes, the Allies can barge into the Kuriles eventually. They can barge anywhere eventually is there's no auto-vic first. But any assets lost by Japan defending forward are a waste in the defense of the Kuriles. The approach angles to the Kuriles don't depend on the Aleutians. Para Jima can be attacked from Pearl. The key is to make it as hard on the Allies as possible when they get there. Building big, hairy air-bases in the western Aleutians is wasteful, and giving away ships there as well. I've had 4-5 BBs damaged in the Aleutians, at least three CAs, and about 7-8 CLs. Lots of DDs. Other than a bunch of old DDs and I think two CLs everything got back to Seattle and is repaired and re-forward, or repairing now. IJN losses have been much worse. And for what?

I think Loka. has made only one strategic error in our game and it's this one. Everywhere else he is kicking my can. The Aleutians look easy to a lot of Japan players and a lot of Allied players let them go. That's dumb. But Japan shouldn't want them either. Far better to make the Kuriles a wall. That's going to take a lot of time, a lot of supply, and a lot of engineers.


Good food for thought on the Northern Pacific. What you're saying about defending the Aleutians at the expense of the Kuriles rings true to me. What I have in the Aleutians now (nothing worth saving, in truth) is now written off to act as a screening force for the Kuriles build-up. Kiska Island will be build to level 2 airbase, some Kate's will be flown in, and the Aleutians will be on it's own.

I'll start afresh on the Kuriles. Eforutu and Para-Jima are already being built up, and I'll look to see what other bases have the potential to be decent.

I think to neglect the Aleutians entirely is a waste. They're undefended at the start of the game, and Adak makes a first-rate forward submarine base for the Allies. That said, Naval Guards instead of an IJA regiment would have been far more fitting


My final thought is just that no forward defense is needed to keep the Allies away from the Kuriles in 1942. I know the Kuriles LOOK exposed and real near the HI, but it's an illusion. The K's are real bad juju without air cover, and the USN can't get there with that in 1942 and live. They can't go there if Japan builds the Aleutians or it doesn't. Which means every ton of supply spent building up Kiska could be better used in the Kuriles against later.

As far as sub bases, I use the historic base at Dutch for my S-boats. They are perfect assets for the Aleutians range-wise and with working torps. They can only barely get to the Kuriles (some of them can't even do that) and have no station time. I have about 8-10 subs in the Aleutians, which forces him to burn fuel, supplies, and aircraft ops losses on ASW. If I didn't have targets in the Aleutians for the S-boats I'd have very little for them to do outside screening places like Johnson or Palmyra, which aren't seeing any enemy traffic. In the Aleutians they do.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 64
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/13/2014 8:20:03 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

As a point of data I took Eniwetok in my AARed game in the early spring of 1942. It took until late October to get it to Level 6 forts, with a base force, a Seabee battalion, and a combat engineer unit working on those alone.

On NorPac, I have come to the conclusion that Japan shouldn't go there at all. Anything lost is a waste. Not only does the US have its best WC yard at its back, as well as the coast of Alaska to move supplies around though shallow water and under search cover most of the way, it starts with Dutch I. (an excellent port and terrible AF), and can take Umnak the first week (a great AF and terrible port.) Adak can be fortified very, very quickly if made a priority. I did that and Lokasenna has lost a full division there, plus three big secondary landing forces. The ships he's lost, including much of the MKB, are the only thing keeping me alive VP-wise as he dominates China, Burma, and northern Oz.

A lot of Japan players say "I'll take some and make him pay to re-take it." Maybe. But in 1943 and beyond holding Adak, Amchitka, or the rest to the west is a nice-to-have for the Allies. Jocke landed in Korea with Obvert still holding half the Aleutians. It was a backwater that cost Japan a lot of assets.

That said, if you flip the map that expanse of blue west of the chain is terrible water for the Allies until a lot later than 1942. It has NO advantages for them and many for Japan, due to distance, lack of carriers, and interlocking bases in the Kuriles. Yes, the Allies can barge into the Kuriles eventually. They can barge anywhere eventually is there's no auto-vic first. But any assets lost by Japan defending forward are a waste in the defense of the Kuriles. The approach angles to the Kuriles don't depend on the Aleutians. Para Jima can be attacked from Pearl. The key is to make it as hard on the Allies as possible when they get there. Building big, hairy air-bases in the western Aleutians is wasteful, and giving away ships there as well. I've had 4-5 BBs damaged in the Aleutians, at least three CAs, and about 7-8 CLs. Lots of DDs. Other than a bunch of old DDs and I think two CLs everything got back to Seattle and is repaired and re-forward, or repairing now. IJN losses have been much worse. And for what?

I think Loka. has made only one strategic error in our game and it's this one. Everywhere else he is kicking my can. The Aleutians look easy to a lot of Japan players and a lot of Allied players let them go. That's dumb. But Japan shouldn't want them either. Far better to make the Kuriles a wall. That's going to take a lot of time, a lot of supply, and a lot of engineers.


Good food for thought on the Northern Pacific. What you're saying about defending the Aleutians at the expense of the Kuriles rings true to me. What I have in the Aleutians now (nothing worth saving, in truth) is now written off to act as a screening force for the Kuriles build-up. Kiska Island will be build to level 2 airbase, some Kate's will be flown in, and the Aleutians will be on it's own.

I'll start afresh on the Kuriles. Eforutu and Para-Jima are already being built up, and I'll look to see what other bases have the potential to be decent.

I think to neglect the Aleutians entirely is a waste. They're undefended at the start of the game, and Adak makes a first-rate forward submarine base for the Allies. That said, Naval Guards instead of an IJA regiment would have been far more fitting


My final thought is just that no forward defense is needed to keep the Allies away from the Kuriles in 1942. I know the Kuriles LOOK exposed and real near the HI, but it's an illusion. The K's are real bad juju without air cover, and the USN can't get there with that in 1942 and live. They can't go there if Japan builds the Aleutians or it doesn't. Which means every ton of supply spent building up Kiska could be better used in the Kuriles against later.

As far as sub bases, I use the historic base at Dutch for my S-boats. They are perfect assets for the Aleutians range-wise and with working torps. They can only barely get to the Kuriles (some of them can't even do that) and have no station time. I have about 8-10 subs in the Aleutians, which forces him to burn fuel, supplies, and aircraft ops losses on ASW. If I didn't have targets in the Aleutians for the S-boats I'd have very little for them to do outside screening places like Johnson or Palmyra, which aren't seeing any enemy traffic. In the Aleutians they do.


Kiska needs to go to level 2 so that I can fly some form of offensive missions and keen the USN honest in the Western Aleutians, but from the next turn on, the Kuriles will become the main focus. There's nothing in terms of AV to garrison them, but engineers aplenty are sitting in Korea since Pusan made level 8 port.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 65
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/17/2014 12:51:07 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Feb 27th to March 8th, 1942

North Pacific

New deployments, focusing on the Kuriles, are underway. Engineers are already at Eforutu, and more are on the way to islands with good potential airbases. 5th Fleet HQ is redeployed here as well, but likely won't stay for long.

Kiska is 4% off level 2 airbase. A few thousand points of supply and a squadron of Kates represents the last reinforcements the Aleutians are going to get. The Raiding Regiment will be flown out, and the rest of the troops will be abandonded to their fate.

Submarine Operations

Fairly big overhaul here. Most short-ranged submarines (mainly the RO-boats) are being sent to the Kuriles, with the long-range stuff staying in the Pacific. The mid-range submarines will operate in the Indian Ocean. As soon as Rangoon is cleared of mines, it will open as a submarine base.

Central Pacific

Quiet.

South-West Pacific

KB sorties again from Truk. They'll plaster Noumea in support of the Guards Mixed Brigade, then cut west to strike at Sydney. Following this, they'll redeploy elsewhere in order to decive the Allies in to thinking that the KB is always based at Truk.

Australia

Minor skirmishes around Derby as the IJA tangles with the Austrailian Army. Merely the prelude to the big show here.

Java

The siege of Batavia carries on, with the Dutch expected to fall within the week. Shipping is poised at Singapore to carry the bulk of the IJA onwards to fresh conquests.

Burma

The Chinese burst through the Thai Division and IJA armour in north-eastern Burma. However, the feared flood of Chinese troops doesn't materialize. Rangoon falls, and with the troops freed up, the situation in the north stabilizes.

The first fighting between the British, AVG and the IJAAF occurs on March 7th, with a tatical IJA victory.

A British submarine puts a single torpedo in to a IJN heavy crusier, which will retire to Singapore for repairs. The rest of the task force will carry on on its mission to raid Akayb. Additional air-search is needed in this area, as the IJN force is operating nearly blind.

China

Virtual stalemate. 7k Chinese AV sits in the western mountains, while the remainer sits in the north-western cities. The IJA will capture the remaining cities before concentrating against the mountain redoubt of the Chinese. The possibility of surrounding the mountain holdout and bypassing it is being evaluated.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:44:29 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 66
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/25/2014 12:35:53 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		March 8th to March 16th, 1942

A crazy eight days!

North Pacific

The Allies continue to raid along the Aleutians, with B-17s bombing Adak every few days and a bombardment by a destroyer flottila striking Attu on the 15th. More short-range IJN subs are being vectored in to the area to counter the big Allied build-up.

Dutch Harbour and Umnak Island are very busy bases indeed, and the Allies certainly haven't skimped on commital of assets to this theater.

The Japanese screening action will continue while engineers establish the second-line defences in the Kuriles. Eforutu will soon join Parashimo-Jima as an operable airbase in this region, and more engineering units are en-route.

Central Pacific

Airgroups are re-shuffled to ensure a complete search zone from Fiji to Wake Island. Taibuitea makes a level 1 port, and the airbase will be improved to level 3 to act as the nexus for the defence of the Lower Gilberts.

No Allied shipping has been sighted here for quite some time.

South-West Pacific

The KB departs Truk on a quest to smash Allied shipping between Fiji and Sydney, but the operation is a complete failure. The KB stumbles upon a small Allied amphib force, which ruins the suprise, and the sub-screen established to catch fleeing ships off Sydney doesn't get a single contact.

With suprise gone, the KB bombs Noumea while the battleships are detached to bombard that base in preparation for an assault. To top things off, the assault fails.

A waste of fuel. The KB will withdraw to Truk and redeploy to the DEI in preparation for operations off Austrailia.

The Guards Mixed Brigade is still fighting over Noumea, and is very much exposed but the reinforced Austrailian brigade is close to breaking. Additional gairrson and support LCU's are marked for Noumea as soon as they arrive in-theater.

The 4th Division embarks at Port Moresby for Horn Island, in order to secure that flank and destroy the Austrailian brigade there.

Austrailia

The IJA continues to push inland. Broome is captured, driving a British brigade in to the desert, while the Austrailian armoured units are routed by a IJA regiment.

Two SNLF units take Wyndham after a massive Japanese effort to destroy the Allied air power at Darwin is a huge success.

On the 15th, an IJN crusier force collides with a rag-tag Allied fleet. The IJN crusiers Suzuya and Kumano, with escorting destroyers, meet the Allied ships just off Broome. Battle is joined at just 1000 yards! After crossing the T of the Allied fleet, the Kumano fights heroically, despite three torpedo hits and a collection of shell impacts, the Mogami class crusier pumps shell after shell through the belt armour of Repulse, and sinks an Allied APD.

At length, the battle breaks off. The Kumano makes Broome harbour and disbands in to port, but fires and flooding are severe, and the ship is not likely to survive. The IJNAF deploys fighters and torpedo bombers to Broome in order to destroy fleeing cripples.

Japanese Ships
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano, Shell hits 19, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Nowaki
DD Yugao, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 15, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Northampton
CA Chester, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Perth, Shell hits 2
APD Alden, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
APD Edsall
APD John D. Edwards
APD Whipple

With it's sister-ship fighting for it's life in port at Broome, the Suzuya, with plenty of shells and torpedos, will attempt to hunt down the crippled Allied battlecrusier.


With Wyndman in Japanese hands, the flank of the combined British and Austrailian forces defending Darwin appears extremely exposed.

Java

Batavia falls, and the bulk of the IJA forces on the island prepare to shift to Soerabaja. Shipping for the invasion of Western Austrailia is being concentrated at Singapore, and the entire operation awaits the arrival of the KB.

China

The sitskreig carries on. The North China Army stack crosses on to the interor plains, while the KMT withdraw to Chungking.

The 7k KMT AV in Kunming is intact, and the Japanese bombing campaign against it has not yet started in ernest. With the bulk of KMT LCU's at Kunming, the IJA will focus on securing Chungking before reducing the Kunming stronghold.

With the KMT firmly entreched in good terrain, the hope that the IJA will be able to march through to Burma in the first six months of the war dies in the mountains of Western China.


The IJA breaks in to the Chinese interior as the KMT prepare their redoubts.[/i
]

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:44:37 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 67
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/25/2014 12:44:18 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Question to the gallery:

Just how do you use the KB so as to maximize its effectiveness?

I've not really figured out the best way to get a good rate of return with the fuel spent sending it off around the Pacific. At best, it's served to screen some invasions and has conducted two fairly shallow raids (one moderate success, one abject failure). Is it worth my while to deploy the KB deep behind Allied lines to raid?

Or was my first inclination right: that the KB is best used as a deterent and as the cutting edge of any counter-thrust against Allied moves?

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 68
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/25/2014 2:40:24 AM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Question to the gallery:

Just how do you use the KB so as to maximize its effectiveness?

I've not really figured out the best way to get a good rate of return with the fuel spent sending it off around the Pacific. At best, it's served to screen some invasions and has conducted two fairly shallow raids (one moderate success, one abject failure). Is it worth my while to deploy the KB deep behind Allied lines to raid?

Or was my first inclination right: that the KB is best used as a deterent and as the cutting edge of any counter-thrust against Allied moves?


I think it is best used to screen invasion forces and then go dark waiting for the allies to send stuff.

Go check out John III's deployment in his current game. He has 4 carrier TF's moving about and that seems VERY effective.

Early to mid game small carrier fleets would be useful to interdict supply and troops coming from east and west to Australia.

Sometimes not using it at all and just having the threat of not knowing where the KB is can be a valuable asset to Japan while wasting no fuel.




_____________________________


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 69
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/25/2014 2:51:38 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Yep. As soon as I know where it is it loses 50-75% of its usefulness to Japan.

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(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 70
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/25/2014 2:58:56 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Don't know your force dispositions for Chungking, but as a veteran of two current sieges I would say that taking down Chengtu first is key (it's a huge supply engine) and the base to the west (N-something; don't have game open) as well. Otherwise Resources flow to Chungking and its internal LI can keep the troops happy for months even once the fuel stops and the HI dries up.

It also gets 400/day organic you can't stop, and most every Allied player transports from Ledo with every plane that can fly.

It starts with Forts 6 and is easy to get to 7 before the Japanese show up.

In one of my games Japan has lost over 125,000 men and it's still in Allied hands with Forts at 3 on Dec 1. In the other Japan has strat bombed all supply generation to zero except organic. Forts are still at 7 in mid-June.

Chungking is worth a lot, but it costs a lot too. It's not in any way a by-your-leave campaign before you take up real work farther west. If you do Chungking figure on investing 300,000 men for the rest of 1942 more or less against a player as good as Lokasenna.

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 71
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 12:14:47 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		March 16th to March 18th, 1942

North Pacific

American heavy bombers attack Amchitka Island, and the Zero's and Jake's on CAP do a decent job in damaging the beasts. Considering how both squadrons are second-rate material at best, I'd happily trade them for B-17s and LB-30's.

The 80th Regiment begins its evacuation from Adak by transport floatplanes. It's earmarked for garrison duties on Eforutu.

A task force of one heavy and one light crusier is spotted north-east of Adak, hopfully the Kate's based on Amchitka will sortie and keep the bluff of a serious Japanese commitment to the Aleutians.

Central Pacific

Naval Guard units arriving as reinforcements start to take up positions on the more valuable islands in the 4th Fleet AO that started the war without garrisons.

The 4th Fleet is suffering from a severe fuel crisis, along with most of the IJN in the Pacific. Truk has a dribble of fuel left, and Rabual has enough to support operations for the foreseeable future, but Kwajalein is dry, and the ships there are waiting on a cargo convoy shipping some fuel in.

The root cause of this fuel shortage here is the focus on operations in the Lower Solomons, which has led to the shipments of fuel destined for Truk being sent instead to Rabual. However, tankers are starting to gather in Balikipan to ship the fuel from that base to Truk. From there, cargo ships will transfer it to the 4th Fleet AO and Rabual.

Lesson learned: Truk's fuel surplus may seem healthy, but it won't last any more than six months unless watched carefully.

South Pacific

The KB doubled back to check a SigInt report east of Efate, but nothing materialized. With US submarines closing in on the carriers, they'll withdraw to Truk and thence to the DEI.

The Horn Island invasion begins tomorrow, with the Mutsu opening the show by bombarding the island before the 4th Division storms ashore. Once the Austrailian units are destroyed, the 4th Division will return to Port Moresby.

Austrailia

Despite a heroic performance off Broome, the Kumano sinks in Broome Harbour. The mixed US-British-Austrailian fleet vanishes, and hopes for a torpedo strike to finish the cripples off are crushed. This turns a IJN tatical victory into an Allied strategic victory: severe damage to a battlecruser and two heavy crusiers was not a good exchange for a IJN crusier.

The big British commitment to Darwin has been under constant observation by Japanese recon planes, but as more planes are freed up from the conclusion of operations in the DEI, additional recon flights are being mounted to discover what troops defend Katherine, Daly Waters and Fenton (the latter of which was a dox hex that now sports a level 1 airbase and a British flag).

DEI

Preparations are made for the final assault on Soerabaja, as clean-up of the remaining Dutch bases continues. Once Soerabaja falls, IJA units will start immediate preparation for Operation Oswego - the capture of Darwin and Operation Carillon - the invasion of Western Austrailia.

Engineers arrive in Sabang, to build that base up as the northern nexus of the Sumatran defence. All the bases along the Sabang-Medan railway will be developed to offensive airbases to secure northern Sumatra.

In south Sumatra, Lahat will be the central airbase, supporting Oosthaven and Palambang. Bemkoelen will operate as a base for search patrols in to the exposed western flank of Sumatra.

Burma

The 2nd Royal Thai Army Division makes a bid to cut off the refugees from the Fall of Rangoon, marching from Prome to cut the coastal road. Despite being outnumbered, the RTA unit may be able to pin the British in place until IJA forces are freed up to destroy them.

The bulk of support assets for the Burma theater have nearly completed their trek through the jungle. Additional artillery, AA and engineering units as well as supplies have been dispatched from Japan.

In the north of Burma, the 15th Army, with the Imperial Guards Division in support, has nearly reached Lashio, where the Chinese intrusion in to Burma will be pushed back across the border.

Phillipines

The siege of Bataan carries on. Following a failed attack which nearly halved the fighting capacity of the 21st Division, the American units in Bataan have more AV than the Japanese forces. The 14th Army is quite content to wait for the American forces to run low on supply, while the heavy artillery units that supported the invasion of Java are relocated to the Phillipines to help break the back of American resistence.

China

The encirclement of Chungking starts as IJA units fan out to secure the surrounding countryside. Meanwhile, IJA forces move back in to Kunming to keep the KMT units from moving elsewhere.

Once Chungking is isolated and the IJAAF has operational airbases around Kweiyang, the forces at Kunming will withdraw eastwards, leaving behind a screening force, and move to assist in the seige of Chungking.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:44:46 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 72
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 12:25:31 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Question to the gallery:

Just how do you use the KB so as to maximize its effectiveness?

I've not really figured out the best way to get a good rate of return with the fuel spent sending it off around the Pacific. At best, it's served to screen some invasions and has conducted two fairly shallow raids (one moderate success, one abject failure). Is it worth my while to deploy the KB deep behind Allied lines to raid?

Or was my first inclination right: that the KB is best used as a deterent and as the cutting edge of any counter-thrust against Allied moves?


I think it is best used to screen invasion forces and then go dark waiting for the allies to send stuff.

Go check out John III's deployment in his current game. He has 4 carrier TF's moving about and that seems VERY effective.

Early to mid game small carrier fleets would be useful to interdict supply and troops coming from east and west to Australia.

Sometimes not using it at all and just having the threat of not knowing where the KB is can be a valuable asset to Japan while wasting no fuel.


I feel that the KB is wasted on trying to hunt down supply convoys. Akin to using champagne to wash your floors. Once my fuel situation in the Central Pacific is resolved, I'll start sending out float-plane equiped AMC's as raiders to mess with logistics.

Once my Austrailian gambit is ashore, I'll re-evaluate, but at this point, I'll keep the KB tied up next to my main strategic thrust.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Yep. As soon as I know where it is it loses 50-75% of its usefulness to Japan.


From my own time playing Allies, I'm inclined to agree. Once the DEI falls, there's a big black hole in the middle of the map devoid of search planes that the KB can spring from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Don't know your force dispositions for Chungking, but as a veteran of two current sieges I would say that taking down Chengtu first is key (it's a huge supply engine) and the base to the west (N-something; don't have game open) as well. Otherwise Resources flow to Chungking and its internal LI can keep the troops happy for months even once the fuel stops and the HI dries up.

It also gets 400/day organic you can't stop, and most every Allied player transports from Ledo with every plane that can fly.

It starts with Forts 6 and is easy to get to 7 before the Japanese show up.

In one of my games Japan has lost over 125,000 men and it's still in Allied hands with Forts at 3 on Dec 1. In the other Japan has strat bombed all supply generation to zero except organic. Forts are still at 7 in mid-June.

Chungking is worth a lot, but it costs a lot too. It's not in any way a by-your-leave campaign before you take up real work farther west. If you do Chungking figure on investing 300,000 men for the rest of 1942 more or less against a player as good as Lokasenna.


Chengtu lies abandoned, no idea why, and a mixed brigade has been detached to occupy that base.

7k Chinese AV in Kunming, against 3k Japanese AV. I'll move most of my AV to help with the seige of Chungking and leave a screening force in case the Chinese like the odds of attacking IJA troops in the mountains with low supply.

No idea how much Chinese AV is in Chungking, but I'd wager around the 3-4k mark. Chungking is the priority base; don't want the Chinese respawning to fight again, even if I'd like the VP's.

Question to you, Bullwinkle. Is bombing the industry in Chungking/Kunming worth it? Does it reduce the length of the seige?

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 3/26/2014 1:25:54 AM >

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 73
Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 12:51:43 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Having never really had a chance to properly grip with Japanese production, I'd love some views on my R&D and airframe production.

R&D

IJN

Aircraft type - Number of factories - Size of Factory

A6M3 Zero - 3x30
A6M5 Zero - 2x30
B6N1 Jill - 2x30
B7A2 Grace - 2x30
D4Y1 Judy - 3x30
D3A2 Val - 1x30
G4M2e Betty 1x30 (What the hell, Okha equiped Betties might be fun)
J1N1-C Irving - 1x30
J1N1-S Irving - 1x30
J2M2 Jack - 2x30
N1K1-J George - 3x30
P1Y1 Frances - 2x30

IJA

Aircraft type - Number of factories - Size of Factory

Ki-43-IIa Oscar - 2x30 (to boost Oscar research and allow existing factories to be updated)
Ki-44-IIa Tojo - 3x30 (1 factory to convert)
Ki-45 KAIa Nick - 1x30 (based on reports in AAR's, it does a decent job on CAP and anti-bomber duty)
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah - 2x30 (appears a decent night fighter, faster than B-29s, low SR, plenty of cannons)
Ki-49-Ia Helen - 1x30 (convert to production)
Ki-39-IIb Helen - 2x30 (I messed up Helen research, so that it missed a model and went to the IIb rather than the IIa)
Ki-61-Ia Tony - 2x30 (will be used to accelerate the Ki-100-II Tony)
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy - 2x30 (IJA torpedo bomber, obviously needed. Might put another factory on this?)
Ki-67-Ia Peggy - 1x30 (convert to production)
Ki-83 - 1x30 (can't hurt)
Ki-84a Frank - 2x30
Ki-84b Frank - 1x30
Ki-93-Ia - 1x30


As you can see, not streamlined in the slightest, but if anyone catches any glaring errors or critical planes I've missed, please let me know!

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 74
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 1:20:49 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		You have to balance the Peggy T with training up the pilots...a hard thing to do. Easier to get Army pilots trained up as dive bombers I think for anti-shipping duties.


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 75
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 2:05:35 AM   
mind_messing

 

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You have to balance the Peggy T with training up the pilots...a hard thing to do. Easier to get Army pilots trained up as dive bombers I think for anti-shipping duties.




Hmm...

The only IJA dive bombers are the Ki-48-IIb and IIc Lily. With just two 100kg bombs, it doesn't scream "ship-killer" material to me. The IJN have a plethora of excellent dive-bombers; it's the IJA that doesn't have a good ship-killer.

100kg bombs aren't going to do much to anything above a light crusier, 250kg bombs would be better, but a torpedo best of all.

That said, I'll look in to training some Ki-21 Sally squadrons as level bombers. 4x250kg bombs is a better bombload than the Betty or Nell carries...

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 76
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 3:10:11 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		[/quote]

Hmm...

The only IJA dive bombers are the Ki-48-IIb and IIc Lily. With just two 100kg bombs, it doesn't scream "ship-killer" material to me. The IJN have a plethora of excellent dive-bombers; it's the IJA that doesn't have a good ship-killer.

100kg bombs aren't going to do much to anything above a light crusier, 250kg bombs would be better, but a torpedo best of all.

That said, I'll look in to training some Ki-21 Sally squadrons as level bombers. 4x250kg bombs is a better bombload than the Betty or Nell carries...
[/quote]

I don't disagree with your logic...

Obvert was disappointed in the Dinah NF...you might want to check his AAR where he talks about night fighters.





< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/26/2014 4:11:01 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 77
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 3:29:53 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:



Hmm...

The only IJA dive bombers are the Ki-48-IIb and IIc Lily. With just two 100kg bombs, it doesn't scream "ship-killer" material to me. The IJN have a plethora of excellent dive-bombers; it's the IJA that doesn't have a good ship-killer.

100kg bombs aren't going to do much to anything above a light crusier, 250kg bombs would be better, but a torpedo best of all.

That said, I'll look in to training some Ki-21 Sally squadrons as level bombers. 4x250kg bombs is a better bombload than the Betty or Nell carries...


I don't disagree with your logic...

Obvert was disappointed in the Dinah NF...you might want to check his AAR where he talks about night fighters.


For the IJA, the Dinah NF is the only really competitive night-fighter. The Nick NF is too slow, as is the Peggy NF (though not by much). That leaves the Dinah or the Randy, but the Randy is a late, late plane.

For the IJN, the J1N1-Sa Irving seems the best. Radar and cannons, but it's slower than the B-29s. The Judy NF and Zero NF will probably be the mainstay, and I might build a few J1N1's just to see how they do.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 78
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 4:41:56 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Chengtu lies abandoned, no idea why, and a mixed brigade has been detached to occupy that base.

7k Chinese AV in Kunming, against 3k Japanese AV. I'll move most of my AV to help with the seige of Chungking and leave a screening force in case the Chinese like the odds of attacking IJA troops in the mountains with low supply.

No idea how much Chinese AV is in Chungking, but I'd wager around the 3-4k mark. Chungking is the priority base; don't want the Chinese respawning to fight again, even if I'd like the VP's.

Question to you, Bullwinkle. Is bombing the industry in Chungking/Kunming worth it? Does it reduce the length of the seige?


Re Chengtu: as soon as you take it count on it being firebombed. Loka. knows how much supply it generates. It can be reached from Ledo, Imphal, Lashio, etc. If it's out of the supply business the siege supply for Chungking has to be hauled farther, with hex losses. If you take this base you should have fighters there immediately, else leave it for now.

It's hard to do Chungking and Kunming at the same time. K. also makes a lot of supply and he probably has Forts 5/6 there. To me the two have different purposes. I'd do C. if I wanted the VPs, the big industrial base, and to turn off re-spawning. I'd do K. if I was heading into the mountains to drive to the Irrawaddy through Lashio and unify the theaters. They have different challenges and could require different LCU selections.

I have over 8000 AV in Chungking against Loka., but it's Chinese AV (arty light, no tanks, very low-anti-hard) and a good bit of it is at zero supply. He has bombed HI/LI severely, but late in the effort shifted to Resource bombing, which shuts off LI if the base is isolated and hexes to nearby Chinese Resources are closed. That N-something base to the NW of Chungking is a big Resource generator. So it depends on your order of operations re Chungking. Once you have units in-hex the internal Resources shut down and LI is running on stocks. Loka didn't put LCUs in-hex and still hasn't. But he shut down the industry. Of course, when the base falls he doesn't have that supply or the 200+ HI per day he would have had without the bombing. But he went down that branch of the decision tree. It's a valid choice, but nothing is free. If playing for auto-vic it's probably the lowest cost choice for Japan given Chungking has virtually no anti-air capability.

Loka still has not hit the city on the ground. I don't know what he'll use and how well the Forts will hold. Elsewhere he has been very efficient in using tanks combined with at least 2:1 odds to eat down my Forts. He's very patient. I expect he is in the defense as well.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/26/2014 5:45:36 PM >

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Post #: 79
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 5:11:14 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Chengtu lies abandoned, no idea why, and a mixed brigade has been detached to occupy that base.

7k Chinese AV in Kunming, against 3k Japanese AV. I'll move most of my AV to help with the seige of Chungking and leave a screening force in case the Chinese like the odds of attacking IJA troops in the mountains with low supply.

No idea how much Chinese AV is in Chungking, but I'd wager around the 3-4k mark. Chungking is the priority base; don't want the Chinese respawning to fight again, even if I'd like the VP's.

Question to you, Bullwinkle. Is bombing the industry in Chungking/Kunming worth it? Does it reduce the length of the seige?


Re Chengtu: as soon as you take it count on it being firebombed. Loka. knows how much supply it generates. It can be reached from Ledo, Imphal, Lashio, etc. If it's out of the supply business the siege supply for Chungking has to be hauled farther, with hex losses. If you take this base you should have fighters there immediately, else leave it for now.


It's funny how a little knowledge of your opponents playstyle allows you to draw together odd scraps of inteligence. Ledo, along with the rest of Assam, has underwent a significant expansion. I assumed this was to support a late '42 Burma campaign (lots of LCU's in Akyab and Cox's Bazzar), but I suspect a strategic bombing campaign against China might be his goal.

I'll have fighters detailed to fly in to Chengtu on the date that it's captured. Nates won't do anything to B-17s, but they've not had a chance to fight the CAF much.

quote:

It's hard to do Chungking and Kunming at the same time. K. also makes a lot of supply and he probably has Forts 5/6 there. To me the two have different purposes. I'd do C. if I wanted the VPs, the big industrial base, and to turn off re-spawning. I'd do K. if I was heading into the mountains to drive to the Irrawaddy through Lashio and unify the theaters. They have different challenges and could require different LCU selections.


My dispositions force me to remove Chungking from my rear and join my two stacks in China together for Kunming. My forces at Kunming have a great deal of infantry, but little artillery, while the stack north of Chungking has plenty of artillery tubes, but lacks the raw AV required to break Chungking. So joining them together is a must

It's my own fault - I'd anticipated a hard fight from Nanyang to Sian, and the swift collapse of that front threw my dispositions off. Combined with the wholesale Chinese withdrawal, Loka. may have bought himself more time by running away than he would have if he'd fought me every step of the way.

quote:

I have over 8000 AV in Chungking against Loka., but it's Chinese AV (arty light, no tanks, very low-anti-hard) and a good bit of it is at zero supply. He has bombed HI/LI severely, but late in the effort shifted to Resource bombing, which shuts off LI if the base is isolated and hexes to nearby Chinese Resources are closed. That N-something base to the NW of Chungking is a big Resource generator. So it depends on your order of operations re Chungking. Once you have units in-hex the internal Resources shut down and LI is running on stocks. Loka didn't put LCUs in-hex and still hasn't. But he shut down the industry. Of course, when the base falls he doesn't have that supply or the 200+ HI per day he would have had without the bombing. But he went down that branch of the decision tree. It's a valid choice, but nothing is free. If playing for auto-vic it's probably the lowest cost choice for Japan given Chungking has virtually no anti-air capability.


Chungking is very nearly complete isolated, and troops will be moving in-hex shortly.

The consolation I have is that I'll not face 8000 AV at Chungking. Even 5000 would be a stretch. That said, there's 7k Chinese AV in Kunming, and that's a x3 hex (Chungking is just a x2), which more than makes up for it.

Loka's move is excellent in that I lose out no matter what choice I take. Focus on Chungking and I lose the chance of getting the bulk of Manchurian and Chinese divisions to Burma. Focus on Kunming and the Chinese deny me the industry and the ability to shut down Chinese LCU respawns.

quote:

Loka still has not hit the city on the ground. I don't know what he'll use and how well the Forts will hold. Elsewhere he has been very efficient in using tanks combined with at least 2:1 odds to eat down my Forts. He's very patient. I expect he is in the defense as well.


That's not encouraging. Most of the IJA tanks that start in China are up at the far-northern oil centers, while most of the Manchurian tanks have been sent off to Austrailia to give the IJA there some more mobility. I can scrape some together, but the IJA will need to resort to the WW1 method of clearing fortifications: big artillery guns and lots of infantry.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 80
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 6:27:41 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Chengtu lies abandoned, no idea why, and a mixed brigade has been detached to occupy that base.

7k Chinese AV in Kunming, against 3k Japanese AV. I'll move most of my AV to help with the seige of Chungking and leave a screening force in case the Chinese like the odds of attacking IJA troops in the mountains with low supply.

No idea how much Chinese AV is in Chungking, but I'd wager around the 3-4k mark. Chungking is the priority base; don't want the Chinese respawning to fight again, even if I'd like the VP's.

Question to you, Bullwinkle. Is bombing the industry in Chungking/Kunming worth it? Does it reduce the length of the seige?


Re Chengtu: as soon as you take it count on it being firebombed. Loka. knows how much supply it generates. It can be reached from Ledo, Imphal, Lashio, etc. If it's out of the supply business the siege supply for Chungking has to be hauled farther, with hex losses. If you take this base you should have fighters there immediately, else leave it for now.


It's funny how a little knowledge of your opponents playstyle allows you to draw together odd scraps of inteligence. Ledo, along with the rest of Assam, has underwent a significant expansion. I assumed this was to support a late '42 Burma campaign (lots of LCU's in Akyab and Cox's Bazzar), but I suspect a strategic bombing campaign against China might be his goal.

Yeah, we all have scraps of other games floating around our noggins. In my case Loka had read my AAR versus Mike and knew about the China Bug-Out Plan. Me, in only my second game and not knowing Loka at all, tried it again and I'm still paying for it. (Paoshan just fell today.) I traded time for space and he took both, with tanks being preeminent. OTOH, as soon as I lost Chengtu I bombed it from Ledo, taking about 85 LI and some other industry. Ledo is a cocked gun pointed at China, really forever unless Burma is a total collapse. It's one cost of Japan taking all of China. It can be burnt down. Ledo might be built for a Burma campaign, or strat bombing, or to supply Imphal's sector, or other things. Generally it's just BUILT. Prime location, on rails, easily supplied.

Akyab/Cox/Chittagong is a different story to me. Akyab is in the Top-5 most important hexes on the map for 1942 Allies. It is on the railroad and leads into the heart of India without break. It leads to Calcutta first, which is the key to all of NE India. I have done everything I can to hold that 3-base string. I lost Lexington and two RN carriers (and took Kaga) in a preemptive effort. I have virtually all of my IO navy--about 15 good cruisers and DDs, operating out of Calcutta, prowling that corner. I recon Rangoon constantly looking for TF loading. I have most of my CBI air force in that corner as well. Torpedo HQs. Frantic digging. Huge, 70-ship transport effort to shove supply into Chittagong to hold as well as supply interior Burma. The Allies can't lose Akyab. In our game I think he's going in there as soon as Lashio falls and he can flood the north with troops. (He has Mandalay/Schwebo.) I have Imphal and the jungle. And time if I get it. It will be close.

I'll have fighters detailed to fly in to Chengtu on the date that it's captured. Nates won't do anything to B-17s, but they've not had a chance to fight the CAF much.

In Ledo he'll mostly have RAF 4Es. Nowhere as good as B-17s, or as durable. Oscars might do it.

quote:

It's hard to do Chungking and Kunming at the same time. K. also makes a lot of supply and he probably has Forts 5/6 there. To me the two have different purposes. I'd do C. if I wanted the VPs, the big industrial base, and to turn off re-spawning. I'd do K. if I was heading into the mountains to drive to the Irrawaddy through Lashio and unify the theaters. They have different challenges and could require different LCU selections.


My dispositions force me to remove Chungking from my rear and join my two stacks in China together for Kunming. My forces at Kunming have a great deal of infantry, but little artillery, while the stack north of Chungking has plenty of artillery tubes, but lacks the raw AV required to break Chungking. So joining them together is a must

No matter what, with re-spawning Chungking is a grind. Arty doesn't help with Forts much. You need tanks and/or lots of engineers, plus odds. And Chungking's LCUs to fight at 25% due to zero supply. If your tanks are elsewhere . . . hmm.

It's my own fault - I'd anticipated a hard fight from Nanyang to Sian, and the swift collapse of that front threw my dispositions off. Combined with the wholesale Chinese withdrawal, Loka. may have bought himself more time by running away than he would have if he'd fought me every step of the way.

I think he did for sure. Too many Allied players fight over every city in China. You can't win that.

quote:

I have over 8000 AV in Chungking against Loka., but it's Chinese AV (arty light, no tanks, very low-anti-hard) and a good bit of it is at zero supply. He has bombed HI/LI severely, but late in the effort shifted to Resource bombing, which shuts off LI if the base is isolated and hexes to nearby Chinese Resources are closed. That N-something base to the NW of Chungking is a big Resource generator. So it depends on your order of operations re Chungking. Once you have units in-hex the internal Resources shut down and LI is running on stocks. Loka didn't put LCUs in-hex and still hasn't. But he shut down the industry. Of course, when the base falls he doesn't have that supply or the 200+ HI per day he would have had without the bombing. But he went down that branch of the decision tree. It's a valid choice, but nothing is free. If playing for auto-vic it's probably the lowest cost choice for Japan given Chungking has virtually no anti-air capability.


Chungking is very nearly complete isolated, and troops will be moving in-hex shortly.

The consolation I have is that I'll not face 8000 AV at Chungking. Even 5000 would be a stretch. That said, there's 7k Chinese AV in Kunming, and that's a x3 hex (Chungking is just a x2), which more than makes up for it.

Loka's move is excellent in that I lose out no matter what choice I take. Focus on Chungking and I lose the chance of getting the bulk of Manchurian and Chinese divisions to Burma. Focus on Kunming and the Chinese deny me the industry and the ability to shut down Chinese LCU respawns.

Yep. Both is very hard. If you've also gone on an Oz vacation maybe not do-able.

quote:

Loka still has not hit the city on the ground. I don't know what he'll use and how well the Forts will hold. Elsewhere he has been very efficient in using tanks combined with at least 2:1 odds to eat down my Forts. He's very patient. I expect he is in the defense as well.


That's not encouraging. Most of the IJA tanks that start in China are up at the far-northern oil centers, while most of the Manchurian tanks have been sent off to Austrailia to give the IJA there some more mobility. I can scrape some together, but the IJA will need to resort to the WW1 method of clearing fortifications: big artillery guns and lots of infantry.

The distance to Urumchi is enticing for tank use, but it's a mirage. There's not enough oil up there to matter, and a lot of it won't flow to Shanghai or the coast. Your tanks are far, far better employed in sieges.



< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/26/2014 7:30:32 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 81
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 7:44:11 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

Akyab/Cox/Chittagong is a different story to me. Akyab is in the Top-5 most important hexes on the map for 1942 Allies. It is on the railroad and leads into the heart of India without break. It leads to Calcutta first, which is the key to all of NE India. I have done everything I can to hold that 3-base string. I lost Lexington and two RN carriers (and took Kaga) in a preemptive effort. I have virtually all of my IO navy--about 15 good cruisers and DDs, operating out of Calcutta, prowling that corner. I recon Rangoon constantly looking for TF loading. I have most of my CBI air force in that corner as well. Torpedo HQs. Frantic digging. Huge, 70-ship transport effort to shove supply into Chittagong to hold as well as supply interior Burma. The Allies can't lose Akyab. In our game I think he's going in there as soon as Lashio falls and he can flood the north with troops. (He has Mandalay/Schwebo.) I have Imphal and the jungle. And time if I get it. It will be close.


I've not even had a good look at what to do with the Akyab-Chittagong axis yet: my concern was the escape of 60 odd KMT units to India via Lashio. Beyond three IJA divisions and the RTA, Burma is pretty weak. That's slowly changing though, as more and more assets start pouring in through Rangoon, but AA, artillery and engineers is no substitute for rifles on the ground.

quote:

In Ledo he'll mostly have RAF 4Es. Nowhere as good as B-17s, or as durable. Oscars might do it.


Do the RAF have 4E's by March 42? I suspect he's moved at least one squadron of the Phillipine B-17s to India.

quote:

No matter what, with re-spawning Chungking is a grind. Arty doesn't help with Forts much. You need tanks and/or lots of engineers, plus odds. And Chungking's LCUs to fight at 25% due to zero supply. If your tanks are elsewhere . . . hmm.


I'll pour over the OOB and see if I can scrounge anything up. The Kwantung Army might have a handfull of units that will be helpfull.

quote:

Yep. Both is very hard. If you've also gone on an Oz vacation maybe not do-able.


Oz Op in the planning stages, and I'm not commited to it, but it's a serious strategic problem as well as an opening. There's a big British commitment to Darwin, which represents a thrust at the underbelly of the Southern Resource Area that needs removed.

Darwin in itself is worthless to me, but with big British units deployed there, I'd love to attrition them down (or better yet, destroy them) and leave them to the mercy of the poor British replacement rates. Then there's Western Austrailia, which I see as a chance to draw the American Army units away to a side-show well away from the main resource centers. The Austrailian Army has already lost two brigades (plus a third deployed to Noumea) as well as some small armoured units. Combined with the massive American commitment to Luganville, there can't be much more defending Austrailia other than the Austrailian units that start out there.

The more I plan though, the more I get the feeling my options are limited. I can have Darwin or Western Austrailia. Not both.

I'd prefer the former. There's a great deal of distance between Alice Springs/Perth and Darwin, and less chance to get into a mess that leads to significant losses.

quote:

The distance to Urumchi is enticing for tank use, but it's a mirage. There's not enough oil up there to matter, and a lot of it won't flow to Shanghai or the coast. Your tanks are far, far better employed in sieges.


Well, too late now. Urumchi is secured and a small tank regiment heading off to secure the last base while the remaining units hunt down the Chinese stragglers. The tanks will turn around and head for Central China. Hopefully I can get the IJA tank divisions that start forming shortly deployed to Chungking as well.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 82
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 8:19:15 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

For the IJA, the Dinah NF is the only really competitive night-fighter. The Nick NF is too slow, as is the Peggy NF (though not by much). That leaves the Dinah or the Randy, but the Randy is a late, late plane.


I am not sure you are right -- because none of the Army night fighters have radar until Randy which is a late plane.

I think this makes the Army night fighters simply a disruptive force and staying power & numbers is better than speed in point defense. Dinah's lack of armor hurts here.

You need Dinah to fill out groups, especially recon groups...but I think she might be the weakest Army night fighter.

Admittedly, I could be all wrong. I will let you know in a year or two.

Great discussion with Bullwinkle...

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 83
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 8:32:34 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		I misspoke before. Akyab is on the road network; Chittagong is the rail head. But Akyab means no jungle-jumping. I tend to think of Akyab as the red line. Cox's is a speed-bump for me. Chittagong is a fort.

The RAF has Blenheims; if those aren't 4E they should be. Also that snout-nosed one I can never recall. They can firebomb pretty well, but they're fragile. Not good on point targeting. Also some Wellingtons, but bad pools.

A lot of what's going to India from China is going to be HQs. China has dozens. A really fragmented OOB. I put the arty and most of the base forces in Chungking, but not everybody does. If the arty gets even a taste of supply it can help a lot.

I think a fortified Darwin and a Western Oz is a bridge too far. Perth is hard to supply and vulnerable to the off-map. If you get too creative in the west you risk the Line of Death trigger. The rail network favors defense. And the restricted Aussie divisions at home aren't bad. Aren't great, but decent in garrison. Darwin for the Allies is hard. He has it in our game. Like you I don't care that much now, but it's a target and my Oz troops need training. It's impossible to supply overland. If you have sea control south of Timor he'll have to force TFs through or retreat south. Supply trickles north of Alice Springs. Always has been so.

The Aussies do get good armor units, and the auto-convoys into CT dump many tanks into the pools for free in the early months. Matildas mostly, but not exclusively.

I have a lot of my retreated B-17s in Oz, especially at Alice. Allies can snipe with them all the way to Darwin, as well as recon.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/26/2014 9:34:30 PM >

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Post #: 84
RE: Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A) - 3/26/2014 9:36:06 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Be very careful of an Australian adventure! As Jap player I would only go near as part of a larger purpose...namely to pull some valuable shipping into an early fight. Over the longer term it is nothing but a supply nightmare and a POW camp for IJA. As an allied player I think it is a marvelous plan to suck a Jap player into Australia any further than Darwin. Finally, and most importantly, the Aussies have Bundaberg rum. If they are forced to they will use that sheet as a terror weapon and destroy all!!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 85
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/26/2014 10:44:41 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

For the IJA, the Dinah NF is the only really competitive night-fighter. The Nick NF is too slow, as is the Peggy NF (though not by much). That leaves the Dinah or the Randy, but the Randy is a late, late plane.


I am not sure you are right -- because none of the Army night fighters have radar until Randy which is a late plane.

I think this makes the Army night fighters simply a disruptive force and staying power & numbers is better than speed in point defense. Dinah's lack of armor hurts here.

You need Dinah to fill out groups, especially recon groups...but I think she might be the weakest Army night fighter.

Admittedly, I could be all wrong. I will let you know in a year or two.

Great discussion with Bullwinkle...


Perhaps "competitve" would be the wrong word. The phrase "best of a bad bunch" would be far more fitting for the Dinah regarding IJA night fighters. At any rate, the bulk of night fighter work will need to fall on the IJN and the Irving.

All my opinions are based on a quick twenty minuite examination of the planes in Tracker and a quick search of Obvert's AAR.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I misspoke before. Akyab is on the road network; Chittagong is the rail head. But Akyab means no jungle-jumping. I tend to think of Akyab as the red line. Cox's is a speed-bump for me. Chittagong is a fort.

The RAF has Blenheims; if those aren't 4E they should be. Also that snout-nosed one I can never recall. They can firebomb pretty well, but they're fragile. Not good on point targeting. Also some Wellingtons, but bad pools.

A lot of what's going to India from China is going to be HQs. China has dozens. A really fragmented OOB. I put the arty and most of the base forces in Chungking, but not everybody does. If the arty gets even a taste of supply it can help a lot.


Akyab is the line in the sand for my advance as well. Close enough that Loka. might decide to fight for it, but close to the Burmese bases as to make it dangerous for him. With what appears to be the unrestricted Austrailian divisions set up there, it seems as good a place as any.

Regarding the British bomber force, there should be at least one air-group in China upgraded to Oscars before March ends, seeing as most of the frontline groups are already using Oscars. I might have enough Oscar Ib's left over to upgrade a second group as well.

As for Chinese troop counts, I tend to base Chinese AV estimations off of the number of "guns" rather than , LCU count, troop numbers or AFV's. Seeing as they have a great deal of troops and no AFV's, the number of artillery tubes seems to be a decent indication of troop strength. It's far from foolproof, but gives you a better indication of fighting ability.

quote:

I think a fortified Darwin and a Western Oz is a bridge too far. Perth is hard to supply and vulnerable to the off-map. If you get too creative in the west you risk the Line of Death trigger. The rail network favors defense. And the restricted Aussie divisions at home aren't bad. Aren't great, but decent in garrison. Darwin for the Allies is hard. He has it in our game. Like you I don't care that much now, but it's a target and my Oz troops need training. It's impossible to supply overland. If you have sea control south of Timor he'll have to force TFs through or retreat south. Supply trickles north of Alice Springs. Always has been so.


After a hard stare at the map. I concur. Western Austrailia is scrubbed: the focus will be on the troops in Darwin. Broome is already a colony of the Empire, I'll take Port Hedland and Exmouth and the dox hexes on the eastern side of Darwin to isolate the base, then I'll plug four divisions in to Wyndham, march them east, cut Darwin off in an overland campaign and destroy them. Then they'll load up and leave and some Naval Guard trash will hold the fort till Loka decides he wants it back.

I'll probably outline this is more detail in a few days.

quote:

The Aussies do get good armor units, and the auto-convoys into CT dump many tanks into the pools for free in the early months. Matildas mostly, but not exclusively.

I have a lot of my retreated B-17s in Oz, especially at Alice. Allies can snipe with them all the way to Darwin, as well as recon.


If there's anywhere I want to kill tanks and bombers, it's in the wide open spaces of Northern Oz. Nowhere for the tanks to hide, and too few really good bomber bases that can depend on supply, and the only good escort the Allies can count on is the priceless P-38.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Be very careful of an Australian adventure! As Jap player I would only go near as part of a larger purpose...namely to pull some valuable shipping into an early fight. Over the longer term it is nothing but a supply nightmare and a POW camp for IJA. As an allied player I think it is a marvelous plan to suck a Jap player into Australia any further than Darwin. Finally, and most importantly, the Aussies have Bundaberg rum. If they are forced to they will use that sheet as a terror weapon and destroy all!!


Yeah, the Whistle-stop tour of Western Austrailia is canceled. I want Darwin, not so much for the base itself as for the troops therein. A great deal of them are exiles from the DEI, and without their destruction, they'd have the chance to develop the logistical base for a push from Darwin north through the DEI.

So the plan has changed. It's now simply "Land, kill the troops, take the base, leave." Here's hoping the execution is as simple as it sounds...

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 86
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/27/2014 12:37:47 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		March 19th to March 20th, 1942

Two turns where I spend most of my time staring at the map.

North Pacific

With Dutch Harbour a busy port, we'll attempt to force the Allies to commit extra assets to defend it. A raid of three older destroyers will go in under handpicked captains. The only Allied ships reported is some ASW corvettes and some sort of odd light crusier/AVD task force. Further recon will be conducted before the raid goes in, but it's more to keep up the appearence of a active Japanese defence. The Yamashiro will cruise north of Attu, making sure that it's spotted by Allied air search to further boost this impression.

A handfull of short-to-medium range IJN submarines start to operate out of Hokkaido to support the handfull of floatplane equipped subs operating in this theater. Their primary goal is the same as the destroyer raid: give the impression of an active Japanese defence. Any ships they sink as part of that is a boon.

Withdrawls from Adak by floatplane continues.

Central Pacific

Quiet. An IJN fighter squadron arives as a reinforcement in this theater. It will be filled with rookies fresh from the acadamy to train until it can be transfered to Rabual to upgrade to Zero's.

IJN subs continue to pile up in Kwajalein as the fuel crisis continues. A 15k fuel shipment is about a week out.

South Pacific

Horn Island falls at last, and the 4th Division reloads to return to Port Moresby. Other than that, things are quiet.

Austrailia

Imperial General Headquarters scraps Operation Carrilon - the invasion of Western Austrailia. The focus will remain on Operation Oswego - the destruction of British forces in Northern Austrailia and the capture of Darwin. The plan calls for the isolation of Darwin from land and sea links, the landing of IJA divisions in Wyndham and a overland march to outflank, trap and destroy the British troops in Darwin.


Detailed plans from Imperial General Headquarters concerning Operation Oswego


Red = Bases to be developed in support of the operation. Broome will be exapanded to size 4 and host a IJN Air Flotilla to secure the western flank of the invasion. Derby and Wyndham will expand to size three to enable offensive IJA bombing missions against Darwin itself.
Dark Blue = Bases to be taken by fast transport or paradrops with the intention to use them as floatplane bases. Bathurst Island (island north of Darwin) may be developed to a size 2 airbase.
White = Path to be taken by the invasion task force.
Green = Main IJA thrust. OOB yet to be confirmed, but likely to be in the range of 3-5 divisions, but could possibly be more, depending on the IJA commitments elsewhere.
Light Blue = Diversionary thrust against Daly Waters with the goal of blocking the road to the interior of Austraila and the Alice Springs railhead. Will consist of IJA armoured units for mobility and IJN Naval Guard units to give the armoured units the benefit of infantry support.

Obvious concerns are the immediate withdrawal of British troops to Kathrine and thence eastwards upon discovery of the invasion, so escaping the trap. In order to prevent that, IJA armoured units will make it a priority to secure Katherine before moving south of Daly Waters. A possible diversionary landing at Normanton by the 4th Division is being considered.
In light of the massive commitment of troops and material to Darwin, Imperial General Headquarters predicts the British intend to hold Darwin at all costs and considers a British evacuation unlikely.

DEI

Clean-up of neglected bases continues.

Burma

Lashio falls, but most of the Chinese units have escaped eastwards. The IJA will pursue for one hex more and drive the Chinese back across the border while Royal Thai Army units move up to take positions at Lashio against any further Chinese attempts across the border.

China

The calm before the storm. The IJA begin repositioning for the move against Chungking.

Armoured units in Northern China, after completing a 1500 mile march to capture the northern oil centers, now turn around to march 1500 miles in the other direction to take part in the offensiveagainst Chungking.

At Kunming, the IJA start to pull back. A screening force will be left to mask the redeployment of the bulk of troops to Chungking.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2014 5:45:04 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 87
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/27/2014 3:48:32 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Darwin: The Brits will defend it to the last Aussie!!

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 88
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/27/2014 4:27:37 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		It will be interesting for me to see how he reacts to the Darwin plan. I feel sure he will see the attack coming from the west; he is very good and disciplined about search and recon. And when he sees it he has plenty of time to get south with the Darwin garrison and save them at the cost of the base. Will he?

If he stays it will be a naval battle, not primarily land. He has to get supplies in by sea. I don't know what he has local, nor do I know what you have near Timor, or at Soerbaja, etc. But make no mistake--Darwin is a naval problem. I think you should decide now how much you want it. It might be cheap, it might not be. I'd balance that with how long you think you could keep it and thus prevent its use as a staging base for a DEI effort. He might think that balance favors him and thus you won't come.

Wheels within wheels . . .

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to pontiouspilot)
Post #: 89
RE: Another Question to the Gallery: R&D - 3/27/2014 4:33:55 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Darwin via back door: To echo Bull's comment it seems to take forever to transit that area by the goat trail. Your opponent will see you coming a long way off; also, he has rail to react or withdraw quickly.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 90
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