RE: A snapshot AAR

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: A snapshot AAR

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/9/2014 1:30:06 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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awesome final sequence

I'd agree with you about deep defences, rifle brigades behind rivers can become critical if a German offensive is stretched to the limit

Great AAR, kudos to both of you

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Post #: 241

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/9/2014 2:07:27 PM

jwolf

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I'm amazed you got to Yaroslavl and Ivanovo in one turn.

Seeing the casualty list of numbers of Soviet units wiped out during the summer campaign, it's clear Tarhunnas was under a lot of pressure to maintain his army.� I can only speculate that he believed he needed every combat unit in the defensive lines so didn't have any to spare for garrisons.

Congratulations to both of you for a great campaign and AAR.� I really appreciated the spirit of tough but friendly competition that both of you displayed here.

Edit: Another thing that amazes me is how Timmyab's armored units were so effective even though his AFV count was down to alarmingly low numbers. I would have thought his divisions were full of "paper tigers" so to speak but obviously the results were quite the opposite.

< Message edited by jwolf -- 5/9/2014 3:10:00 PM >

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Post #: 242

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/9/2014 3:39:07 PM

GamesaurusRex

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First, thanks for the time and effort spent on the excellent AAR... but, I'm not at all surprised the German side walked all over the Russian side.

It happened because Tarhunnas attempted the impossible, that is, he attempted a historically realistic Russian forward defense (which is impossible in this sim due to flawed modeling rules effective during the 1941-42 time period). If he had instead retreated and denied Timmy the pocket opportunities, he could have eventually stalled the Hun. I do, however, understand Tar's desire for a realistic defense effort, rather than cheese, but it's just not possible without HRs and game settings to accomodate it.

P.S. I wonder what the effect would be, if there was one more 41-45 grand campaign game scenario provided that had a higher and more historically correct schedule of Russian reinforcements and replacements ? (Is there any way we can do this with the game editor? I'm not familiar with the editor yet.)

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 5/9/2014 4:51:38 PM >

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Post #: 243

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/9/2014 6:47:16 PM

jwolf

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GRex, that is certainly possible within the editor, but I think it would take quite a bit of work. If you seriously want to go in that direction I suggest asking in the scenario design forum for expert assistance in doing exactly that.

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Post #: 244

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/9/2014 7:50:19 PM

RedLancer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
I wonder what the effect would be, if there was one more 41-45 grand campaign game scenario provided that had a higher and more historically correct schedule of Russian reinforcements and replacements ? (Is there any way we can do this with the game editor? I'm not familiar with the editor yet.)

Yes - adding them is simpler than playing. More difficult is the research. If you want to go down that road then create a table that shows Unit Name, TOE Number, %TOE & Morale and arrival date by Turn of those you want to add. If you get that far I'll help add them to a scenario.

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 245

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/10/2014 12:12:06 AM

GamesaurusRex

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Thanks Red ! That's good to know it's possible. If I can find some OOB sources, then we could "roll our own".

I don't have any personal sources that tell me that the currently scripted reinforcement/replacement schedule is wrong... but I know from general historical accounts that the Russian Army fought a tenacious forward defence in 41-42, suffered disasterous, massive, pocketed losses, and yet still still survived and managed to replace those losses at rates that enabled them to mount massive counterattacks in 43. That style of play is not supported by current reinforcement/replacement rates.

So, time for some digging.

(in reply to RedLancer)

Post #: 246

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 6:52:59 AM

Tarhunnas

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Just some final comments. I was short of troops after the summer disasters, so I couldn't be strong everywhere. I had to gamble in some places and simply hope that the German attack wouldn't fall in that sector. I had somewhat deeper defenses in the eastern direction. In the event I was wrong. Great game though, well played by Tim!

On the mild blizzard, I think that works well. Much better and more realistic winter offensive now. I still think the first winter rules are a fudge solution though. Much of the first winter effects ought to have been handled by the supply rules, the same goes for mud really.

Similarly, the real problem in 1942 IMHO is the German capablity to attack with a too large proportion of their army without any realistic logistical constraints.

Good and tense game, playing a reasonably realistic forward defense makes for a much more fun game.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 247

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 12:46:32 PM

charlie0311

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GR,

In the long, long ago I read in a book, "Twentieth Century Russia", if I remember, the Russians had 12 million trained reservists as of summer '41. Can't remember author.

charlie

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 248

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 5:30:58 PM

bigbaba

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From: Koblenz, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

GR,

In the long, long ago I read in a book, "Twentieth Century Russia", if I remember, the Russians had 12 million trained reservists as of summer '41. Can't remember author.

charlie

something around that. glantz speaks about nearly 16 million men with military training. russian built wave after wave of reserve armies and sent them to the front. the german crushed this poorly equiped armies and then the next wave came to the front.

gehlens "fremde heere ost" departement (military intelligence about red army at the OKW) spoke about 250 russian divisions before the attack and general halder said in late 41 that there were 350 divisions counted so far.

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Post #: 249

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 6:57:16 PM

GamesaurusRex

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OK, Gentlemen, just focusing on 1941... and thumbing through some of my admittedly incomplete library of War-In-The-East themed books... when I compared them with the game's 1941 reinforcement schedule, I did not find any massive inconsistencies, but I did notice a few "missing pieces" that did jump out at me.

To whit:

1) The 28th Army should start in Viazma, not way up north where it does.
2) The 53rd Army should appear in August '41, not October, '41.
3) The 58th Army should appear in December '41, not June '42.
4) The 59th Army is missing entirely and should appear in December '41.
5) The 60th Army is missing and should appear in December '41.
(it appears incorrectly later in game when the 60th was redesignated as the 3rd Shock Army.)
6) The 61st Army is missing entirely and should appear in December '41.

As for TOE and morale initial values, I suppose they'd be clones of the 50th-60th Armies.

After the above corrections and looking at the way the game fleshes out all the "shell" army units as they appear, I guess the obvious answer is to simply boost the Russian AP per turn allotment (with intial game setting) to increase the Russian ability to generate replacements to a level suitable to support suicidal wastage of manpower. Then I suppose formulating some sort of HR (sudden death or time linked bonus VP?) to require Russian defence of forward Russian population/industrial centers would be in order to complete the mayhem.

Anyway, something like this could improve the '41-'42 game period and avoid the "Running Russian Syndrome".

This sort of adjustment would increase both German and Russian '41-'42 casualties in the simulation (which needs to happen) and would provide the Russian an incentive to fight forward to avoid HR penalties and to inflict attritional damage on the German Army early in the game.

What do you think, Red Lancer ?

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 5/12/2014 11:21:24 PM >

(in reply to bigbaba)

Post #: 250

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 8:18:16 PM

RedLancer

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It's a start - firstly I suggest you start a new thread in the Scenario Design or Main Area so we can discuss further.

You need to understand that a lot of WitE is hardcoded. Changing generated manpower and replacements is difficult as it is linked to the production system. Doing that and increasing AP allocation is not the best option.

Adding new units which arrive is much easier as the elements you arrive we are 'free' - not linked to pools or production.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 251

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/12/2014 10:22:56 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Ok... I'll post this in the scenario design section. Thanks

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Post #: 252

RE: A snapshot AAR - 5/14/2014 9:11:57 PM

Wheat

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Good game Tarhunnas and Timmytab.

Tarhunnas, don't you think it would have been better to do the forward defense, but WITHOUT the sudden death victory conditions? Heck, the germans didn't even take Stalingrad and yet they get a sudden death win.

And you guys are making GamesaurusRex look like he's right about running running running away.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 253