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RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ?

 
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RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/10/2014 11:54:12 PM   
jonj01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Proudfoot



quote:

I do have to, as an aside, wonder how fun it is to be constantly saving and reloading results that you are not happy with. I basically never do this, in any game. There's no shame in lowering the difficulty. But that's a different philosophy, I guess.


I'm designing a scenario. Which requires playtesting. Which requires loading the same scenario over and over again..each time you find a big design flaw in the initial placement of the computer forces.

I read your entire post. And you are the expert. I am not. But I've loaded different designs on the the same scenario 5 times (sometimes saved under a different scenario name) . The initial initiative roll on turn 1 each of the five times is german 3 soviet 2. Now if the number list starts out at a different place the odds in rolling the same two six sided dies 5 times in a row...is 1/(36^5) or 1 to 60 million. And it could happen randomly. But it seems pretty slim.

This is about as detailed of a recorded empirical study of the dice rolls of this game I've done. I really don't have time to prove this one way or another ..so I'll take your word for it...that's its random...however...it really doesn't seem random.

Without rigid recording I've seen the same dice rolls come up again 3 times in a row. I fired on a leader and 3 squads one time and all three times their "defense" roll was a "6" and all four of them rolled "1"s on the damage check. This is the sequence (6,1,1,1,1) for times in a row. Or a probability of 1/(6^5^3) or about 1 to 2 trillion. I even threw in "extra" rolls before the attack, twice after I reloaded the save. This would suggest that the seeded number is not simply a list of one black die and one red die that is saved when you save the game and reloaded a few steps back when you reload the game. But that the saved die rolls are tied directly to units and action.

Finally, I was not saying the AI is consulting this number list, and making choices based on it.


< Message edited by jonj01 -- 3/11/2014 1:08:08 AM >

(in reply to Tom Proudfoot)
Post #: 31
RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/11/2014 12:15:12 AM   
Tom Proudfoot


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I just right now went New Game->Bitter Enemies and got initiative of 1 and 4, exited the scenario back to the main menu, New Game->Bitter Enemies and got 5 and 2. I'm not sure how you are starting a scenario and getting the same initiatives.

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 32
RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/11/2014 12:45:11 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01

....
Now if the number list starts out at a different place the odds in rolling the same two six sided dies 5 times in a row...is 1/(36^5) or 1 to 60 million.
....
This is the sequence (6,1,1,1,1) for times in a row. Or a probability of 1/(6^5^3) or about 1 to 2 trillion.
...


These are not quite true because the odds of a die coming up a certain number have no effect on the next number the die will be.

The odds of a normal 1d6 rolling a 1 is one in 6, the odds the next roll on the same die will be a 1 are 1 in 6 not 1/6^2.

Given a perfectly balanced die and it is thrown exactly the same way every time, the chance that each roll will be a 1 is 1 in 6, because one roll has no effect on the previous roll.

Given that random number generators are generate numbers the same way, ie previous number has no effect on next number, it very possible to get strings of similar numbers or sets of numbers, in fact it's 1 in 6.



_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 33
RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/11/2014 12:49:13 AM   
jonj01

 

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That scenario design had a lot of bizarre problems..strange LOS problems..ignoring some polygons while not ignoring others (using the game's mpp files, all described in the "mod and scenario" section of this forum). It is for the best I put it down peacefully. I probably should not have used it as an example. The other rolls took place in one of the game's scenarios. And they do suggest in an anecdotal way that the dice rolls are saved for specific events.

However, you say they are not saved to specific events but saved at a specific spot on a long long list of die roll numbers. And when you go back several impulses...the spot is moved back to the exact same number of spots on that long list of die roll numbers as have transpired since the old impulse was saved.

I believe you. I was incorrect, have no rigorous evidence to suggest I was correct, and will drop the matter.

You and Mark are correct..your system is the best system for multiplayer games.

(in reply to Tom Proudfoot)
Post #: 34
RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/11/2014 1:18:25 AM   
jonj01

 

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Joined: 2/21/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01

....
Now if the number list starts out at a different place the odds in rolling the same two six sided dies 5 times in a row...is 1/(36^5) or 1 to 60 million.
....
This is the sequence (6,1,1,1,1) for times in a row. Or a probability of 1/(6^5^3) or about 1 to 2 trillion.
...


These are not quite true because the odds of a die coming up a certain number have no effect on the next number the die will be.

The odds of a normal 1d6 rolling a 1 is one in 6, the odds the next roll on the same die will be a 1 are 1 in 6 not 1/6^2.

Given a perfectly balanced die and it is thrown exactly the same way every time, the chance that each roll will be a 1 is 1 in 6, because one roll has no effect on the previous roll.




Sorry, this is incorrect for a sequence of die rolls. Use the penny toss as an example. Throw the penny 100 times the approximate probability BEFORE you throw a single penny toss that All 100 land heads is 1/(2^100). So the chances of throwing the sequence (6,1,1,1,1) on a six sided die...BEFORE...you roll a single die roll...is 1/(6^5). If you want the probability of doing it twice in a row BEFORE...you roll a single die roll it is 1/(6^5^2) and so on.

You are right about the zero causal effect of the first roll on the second roll. But there have been people (I looked into this crap 2 years ago when I was playing VASL and don't remember the sources) who have run numeric simulators and it pretty much works out. The numeric simulator could roll 1's 6 times in a row the first try but when they count the number of tries and the number that 1 came up 6 times in a row..the numbers work out.

They use this sequence analysis in determining the probability of winning the lottery (e.g. 1 /(40*39*38*37*36)) for a lottery having the numbers 1 through 40 and having to pick 5 numbers right, how many redundant systems they need in airplanes, forensic DNA analysis, etc. Its not exactly correct but it very close more times than it is very far.

Given if you buy one lottery ticket and you win having only bought one lottery ticket..your chances AFTER the lottery draw are 1 in 1. But to give magnitude to probability of sequences occurring I've seen the above formula a lot.




< Message edited by jonj01 -- 3/11/2014 2:29:09 AM >

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 35
RE: What is the re-playability like for the scenarios ? - 3/11/2014 10:22:11 AM   
Barthheart


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Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
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Yep, you are correct.... Not sure what I was thinking, or drinking, last night but I sure messed that up. Sorry all.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 36
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