Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The expenditure in HI will be negligible. Not even a blip on the total. Just don't manufacture a few ships and the divisions are filled out.

However, I wouldn't fill them out at all. In a focus on the economic macro vision of what this move could cost you may have neglected to look at the OOB for Japan at this stage. There are few to no units coming before 44 to fill out defenses in very necessary locations. This is something players who only play the Allies may not realize. japan's defenses in 43 are paper thin. Buying out fully fleshed out divisions from Manchuria or the HI is expensive. These newly released troops on the other hand come at 65% TOE, so 65% the cost. They're likely around 1200-1300 PP instead of 1850 PP.

You've just given him great defensive troops for the inner perimeter at a bargain price, and he can turn off replacements and simply wait for PPs to buy them ALL out. I'd say without taking the base, this is a BIG win for Japan.

if he's really worried about HI points in 45, which I doubt he will be unless he doesn't stockpile correctly or overbuilds, he can just not fill out a few of the plethora of troops that arrive in the Home Islands then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The expenditure in HI will be negligible. Not even a blip on the total. Just don't manufacture a few ships and the divisions are filled out.

However, I wouldn't fill them out at all. In a focus on the economic macro vision of what this move could cost you may have neglected to look at the OOB for Japan at this stage. There are few to no units coming before 44 to fill out defenses in very necessary locations. This is something players who only play the Allies may not realize. japan's defenses in 43 are paper thin. Buying out fully fleshed out divisions from Manchuria or the HI is expensive. These newly released troops on the other hand come at 65% TOE, so 65% the cost. They're likely around 1200-1300 PP instead of 1850 PP.

You've just given him great defensive troops for the inner perimeter at a bargain price, and he can turn off replacements and simply wait for PPs to buy them ALL out. I'd say without taking the base, this is a BIG win for Japan.

if he's really worried about HI points in 45, which I doubt he will be unless he doesn't stockpile correctly or overbuilds, he can just not fill out a few of the plethora of troops that arrive in the Home Islands then.

The primary reason I did it is to force supply use. The HI for arms and vehicle points is secondary. I don't think those are a blip, but I haven't done the math. If he waits that's fine too. HI is HI. But they have to eat even standing still. Until he pays the PPs they can't be used for anything that bothers me, but they eat. Lokasenna has said several times that supply is his real bottleneck as we're playing non-historic R&D, Scen 2 (more mouths again), and he's expanded past historic bounds.

As we're playing no-HRs there is no PP cost to Manchuria. These divisions mostly have PP cost unless he air-lifts, and that's even more supply and lost planes to ops loss and thus HI. As Alfred pointed out if he puts them on islands he has to supply them there, and that's more fuel and ship risk to subs. And more VPs for me when the island falls. Or a waste of supply if it's bypassed.

If I ever get to the HI it's almost certainly going to be with Soviets. In that case it won't matter if he has these units, if they're filled out, or anything else. They're going to be mush.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The expenditure in HI will be negligible. Not even a blip on the total. Just don't manufacture a few ships and the divisions are filled out.

However, I wouldn't fill them out at all. In a focus on the economic macro vision of what this move could cost you may have neglected to look at the OOB for Japan at this stage. There are few to no units coming before 44 to fill out defenses in very necessary locations. This is something players who only play the Allies may not realize. japan's defenses in 43 are paper thin. Buying out fully fleshed out divisions from Manchuria or the HI is expensive. These newly released troops on the other hand come at 65% TOE, so 65% the cost. They're likely around 1200-1300 PP instead of 1850 PP.

You've just given him great defensive troops for the inner perimeter at a bargain price, and he can turn off replacements and simply wait for PPs to buy them ALL out. I'd say without taking the base, this is a BIG win for Japan.

if he's really worried about HI points in 45, which I doubt he will be unless he doesn't stockpile correctly or overbuilds, he can just not fill out a few of the plethora of troops that arrive in the Home Islands then.

The primary reason I did it is to force supply use. The HI for arms and vehicle points is secondary. I don't think those are a blip, but I haven't done the math. If he waits that's fine too. HI is HI. But they have to eat even standing still. Until he pays the PPs they can't be used for anything that bothers me, but they eat. Lokasenna has said several times that supply is his real bottleneck as we're playing non-historic R&D, Scen 2 (more mouths again), and he's expanded past historic bounds.

As we're playing no-HRs there is no PP cost to Manchuria. These divisions mostly have PP cost unless he air-lifts, and that's even more supply and lost planes to ops loss and thus HI. As Alfred pointed out if he puts them on islands he has to supply them there, and that's more fuel and ship risk to subs. And more VPs for me when the island falls. Or a waste of supply if it's bypassed.

If I ever get to the HI it's almost certainly going to be with Soviets. In that case it won't matter if he has these units, if they're filled out, or anything else. They're going to be mush.

I see what you're saying, and that all of these things have a cost the Allied player can take advantage of later. What I'm hoping to point out is that due to the OOB of the Japanese, a) these troops are simply a cheaper version of troops he'd have to buy out from somewhere to put on islands and b) you would have all of the above benefits regardless of this move (he's not simply going to leave critical bases unguarded), but he'd have to pay a third more PPs to buy out the units.

The one thing this move does show is that he's got to have decent troops on all of the inner perimeter; the Ryukyus, the Bonins, the Kuriles, Hokkaido, Formosa and the islands off of it. Those are a lot of places to cover, and for the Japanese that's tough. It requires buying out a ton of units. There are NO free ones until 44, at least in Scen 1, other than Naval Guards. Even then, most of what arrives are mediocre brigades.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Those divisions are worthless and weaken considerably the overall Japanese war effort.  Only extremely poor Allied play can make them of value to Japan.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Alfred

While your are here...where can I find your supply 101 at? Is it still relevant with the current patches? I have your ship repair 101, are there any other 101's that would be good to read?

Thanks

Here is the Logistics 101 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790&mpage=1&key=logistics%2C101?

It remains relevant.

Do a search on "supply length" and you should find a series of more recent posts by me on logistics.

Do not for a moment believe those doom sayers who claim searching the forum is useless. I use the Matrix search software and find it very adequate. WITPS instead prefers to "google" the Matrix site. Tons of answers are regularly provided. irrespective of which search mode is employed.

Besides the devs, several of whom still regularly pop in to the forum, there are several non devs whose posts are usually quite accurate and informative. Some of the key ones to bear in mind when it comes to game mechanics/concepts, albeit this is not an exhaustive list, are:

LoBaron
Sardauker
WITPQS
Damian (he uses a different moniker, easily found as he is the co developer with Floyd of Tracker)
Quixote
Bullwinkle58
jmalter
crsutton

(apologies to others omitted but equally deserving to be listed)

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Those divisions are worthless and weaken considerably the overall Japanese war effort.  Only extremely poor Allied play can make them of value to Japan.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

They could be at 100% TOE with 99% experience and they would still be worthless.

The only reason why Japanese players would take comfort from them is that most Allied players talk about manoeuvre but really fail abjectly to do so.  Instead most Allied players just launch frontal after frontal operations.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Every Japanese combat unit which never fights is useless. Does not matter how well equipped they are.

If a game ends in July 1945, every single Manchukuo Army LCU, was absolutely useless. That is a minimum of 8000 AV rendered absolutely useless.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

He is certainly tough and precise. He's much more focused on the numbers than I am for sure, and that makes him ideally suited to the Japanese side.

I see your point on having to feed them for the duration starting now. As a Japanese player now, having been through the late war supply dearth I would still take the divisions. It would just mean I would make other sacrifices.

In my game I did make some critical mistakes that also tipped the balance to supply loss hell, but a lot of it was the ultra-organized and thorough destruction plan Jocke set up from the moment B-29s hit the map. He went for EVERY oil and industry point in reach, and got nearly all of them outside the Home Islands, plus a good amount in the large industrial centers of Honshu and Kyushu. To make this stick and have effect it should be your aim to then get a decent base in range of the Home Islands as early as possible to take out that industry as well as hitting the other stuff in the DEI and China as soon as you can.

So the trouble is you've helped him get troops to defend the places you need to take to make the supply drain hurt the most. You can still do it, but you might have to be sneaky.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Every Japanese combat unit which never fights is useless. Does not matter how well equipped they are.

If a game ends in July 1945, every single Manchukuo Army LCU, was absolutely useless. That is a minimum of 8000 AV rendered absolutely useless.

Alfred

That's just not true. Then again, sweeping and controversial statements on strategy seems to be your thing here.

The Depot divisions fill a gap in the Japanese line-up - the one right between brigade and a full-blown division. They're big enough to make any landing a drawn-out affair when behind forts, and are much more durable than mixed brigades. Even better, they don't have the large TOE of the better Japanese divisions, so losing them is not a complete disater.

They have plenty of worth. Strategically, they're perfect for the bases that can be developed to further an advance, but where enemy invasions may or may not take place. As Obvert said, the Kuriles, the Bonins, and Okinawa are the perfect places for the Depot divisions. The smaller islands in the Marianas and Carolines to a lesser extent.

If I exchange a dozen LCU's in return for the Allies ditching 1943-44 plans to invade somewhere with a great deal of value in the late game such as Okinawa, Formosa or the Kuriles, then those LCU's have been far from useless.

Or have I misunderstood your thinking?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

They could be at 100% TOE with 99% experience and they would still be worthless.

The only reason why Japanese players would take comfort from them is that most Allied players talk about manoeuvre but really fail abjectly to do so.  Instead most Allied players just launch frontal after frontal operations.

Alfred

Lets not get carried away! Anything with 99% exp is pretty good in defense.

I think you're missing several very obvious uses for these troops, or neglecting to see their importance due to your greater understanding of combat firepower. Im not saying these depot divisions can stand up to late war Allied troops 1 to 1. But behind forts they can offer good sized units at a cheaper than usual price for deployment to islands that simply will not be a waste of units. The Bonins come to mind immediately. Or Hokkaido, which gets very few troops. Recon cannot tell whether there are strong or weak divisions in place in defense, and sigint is not all-seeing, so the Allied player may in fact not invade locations he would try to take were there smaller troops formations there. Or he may try and realize that even 'worthless' divisions can be very useful defending an atoll shock attack after landing in the face of pre-war fort CD gun emplacements.

I think you're more creative than you imply above, and while you might argue Japan could last longer by using it's resources to deploy better troops, the fact is there are just never enough free units or enough PPs to place decent units in all necessary positions. I'd rather have these than a similarly worthless brigade or garrison unit with almost no arty at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I am not getting carried away.

Every unit in the game, be it land/sea/air has a cost just doing nothing. To assist one's war effort, the objective is to generate a positive ROI on each unit. Any unit can "do" something but if the ROI is negative, that unit is useless. The ROI of every Manchukuo Army LCU is negative. Every Japanese LCU which spends the war on an atoll and never meets an Allied invasion is generating a negative ROI.

I've previously listed the specific negatives attached to trying to make these depot units useful. They possess very few positive attributes themselves. The negative ROI of these units is minimised if they are left at home. A good Allied player can force a decisive victory without landing on the Home Islands. A good Japanese player can deny an Allied decisive victory without these depot units.

AE reflects the nature of war in the PTO. Too many Allied players forget that the PTO was a naval operation. Bullwinkle is fully cognisant of that and his strategy always reflects that. The nature of naval operations is mobility, mobility, and more mobility. Plonking third rate, underpowered depot units on pieces of rock does zilch for Japanese mobility, although I suppose the men could wave at the 3rd/5th Fleet as it sails past them to a worthwhile target.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

They could be at 100% TOE with 99% experience and they would still be worthless.

The only reason why Japanese players would take comfort from them is that most Allied players talk about manoeuvre but really fail abjectly to do so.  Instead most Allied players just launch frontal after frontal operations.

Alfred

Lets not get carried away! Anything with 99% exp is pretty good in defense.

I think you're missing several very obvious uses for these troops, or neglecting to see their importance due to your greater understanding of combat firepower. Im not saying these depot divisions can stand up to late war Allied troops 1 to 1. But behind forts they can offer good sized units at a cheaper than usual price for deployment to islands that simply will not be a waste of units. The Bonins come to mind immediately. Or Hokkaido, which gets very few troops. Recon cannot tell whether there are strong or weak divisions in place in defense, and sigint is not all-seeing, so the Allied player may in fact not invade locations he would try to take were there smaller troops formations there. Or he may try and realize that even 'worthless' divisions can be very useful defending an atoll shock attack after landing in the face of pre-war fort CD gun emplacements.

I think you're more creative than you imply above, and while you might argue Japan could last longer by using it's resources to deploy better troops, the fact is there are just never enough free units or enough PPs to place decent units in all necessary positions. I'd rather have these than a similarly worthless brigade or garrison unit with almost no arty at all.

AE reflects the nature of war in the PTO. Too many Allied players forget that the PTO was a naval operation. Bullwinkle is fully cognisant of that and his strategy always reflects that. The nature of naval operations is mobility, mobility, and more mobility. Plonking third rate, underpowered depot units on pieces of rock does zilch for Japanese mobility, although I suppose the men could wave at the 3rd/5th Fleet as it sails past them to a worthwhile target.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Alfred's comments imply he does not attach any value to deterrence. I think we must be misunderstanding him, because the idea that a unit which never sees combat cannot influence the outcome of the game seems naive to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Japanese mobility dies in 1943-44 with the arrival of overwhelming Allied reinforcements. Even assuming that the IJN makes a net gain in terms of ships throughout 1941-44(which is unlikely!), it will still be vastly outnumbered, and as the war progresses, outdone in quality as well.

The only real alternative for Japan is to exchange troops and space for time. That's where the depot divisions come in. They deny a big SPS base to the Allies, and make them invade, exposing amphib shipping and warships to Japanese air and sea power.

At the end of the day, Japan has far more infantry divisions that it does capital ships.

What would you do Alfred?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Alfred's comments imply he does not attach any value to deterrence. I think we must be misunderstanding him, because the idea that a unit which never sees combat cannot influence the outcome of the game seems naive to me.

Deterrence has a value. But what people are positing here is not deterrence.

This game is an abstraction. If all that a unit is providing is "deterrence", in a situation where it is guarding a non critical rock which can be overlooked by the Allied player because better alternative targets exist, then you are generating a very low positive return to be offset against the built in negative costs of that unit merely existing on map.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Shouldn't the Japanese always have a garrison on critical islands near the Home Islands, especially against a risk taker like Bullwinkle? Wouldn't these depot divisions make any move to the Bonins, Hokkaido, the Marianas or Sakhalin have to be a big nasty sigint blip instead of a stealthy operation? isn't that worth quite a lot to make sure your best troops can be mobile?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Shouldn't the Japanese always have a garrison on critical islands near the Home Islands, especially against a risk taker like Bullwinkle? Wouldn't these depot divisions make any move to the Bonins, Hokkaido, the Marianas or Sakhalin have to be a big nasty sigint blip instead of a stealthy operation? isn't that worth quite a lot to make sure your best troops can be mobile?

As you get into the center of the onion, yes, garrisons matter. They're core to the "defend enough" process I spoke to above. Garrisoning ones that can straddle a lot of approaches is obvious. But that isn't Baker, or Marcus, or Tulagi.

Look at your own game. Of the bases you mention here and in your previous post--Hokkaido, Bonins, Marianas, Sakhalin, Okinawa, Formosa, Ryukus (did I miss any) had you had these ten depot divs to plunk down on them, would they have stopped Jocke from standing in Korea at the end of the game?

The very problem I'm talking about comes from my experience in the game you mention. Due to the ability of the Allies to be mobile with a crapload of units, able to land 5kAV in one base in about a day, these depot divisions would have been priceless! Korea didn't end that game, strat bombing did, so anything earlier that could have slowed Allied progress would have prolonged the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

You can prep anywhere and at any time. You gain one prep point per day so 100 days to 100% prep.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

What glorious fun! Bravo Moose for giving it a shot- Cadillac plan even.

Thank you. One more trick up the Moose's sleeve, then we go back to getting our butarkis kicked. Be a few days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

What glorious fun! Bravo Moose for giving it a shot- Cadillac plan even.

Thank you. One more trick up the Moose's sleeve, then we go back to getting our butarkis kicked. Be a few days.

Didn't the Moose always say, "nothing up my sleeve".

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Shouldn't the Japanese always have a garrison on critical islands near the Home Islands, especially against a risk taker like Bullwinkle? Wouldn't these depot divisions make any move to the Bonins, Hokkaido, the Marianas or Sakhalin have to be a big nasty sigint blip instead of a stealthy operation? isn't that worth quite a lot to make sure your best troops can be mobile?

As you get into the center of the onion, yes, garrisons matter. They're core to the "defend enough" process I spoke to above. Garrisoning ones that can straddle a lot of approaches is obvious. But that isn't Baker, or Marcus, or Tulagi.

Look at your own game. Of the bases you mention here and in your previous post--Hokkaido, Bonins, Marianas, Sakhalin, Okinawa, Formosa, Ryukus (did I miss any) had you had these ten depot divs to plunk down on them, would they have stopped Jocke from standing in Korea at the end of the game?

The very problem I'm talking about comes from my experience in the game you mention. Due to the ability of the Allies to be mobile with a crapload of units, able to land 5kAV in one base in about a day, these depot divisions would have been priceless! Korea didn't end that game, strat bombing did, so anything earlier that could have slowed Allied progress would have prolonged the game.

1. They would have allowed me to better garrison the Burma and Thai coast, likely preventing the easy capture of Tavoy and the eventual encirclement of the Burma Army. (I could easily have avoided it anyway by taking the Pisanoluke road but simply miscalculated movement). (3 depot divisions)

2. They would have provided welcome reserves for the front lines and likely slowed Jocke at Sarmi, in the Moluccas and on Mindanao. (3 depot divisions)

3. They would have given me a few extra units to bulk up Formosa defenses and released some better divisions to go to Okinawa, slowing the fall of that base dramatically, and thus directly delaying the invasion of Korea. (2 depot divisions)

4. They wold have given me a few more units for the Marianas defenses that could easily have slowed the fall of those bases, thus postponing the strat bombing of the HI industry. (2 depot divisions)

All of these things would have helped prevent a landing in Korea when it happened and they would have also saved me supply by delaying strat bombing in several locations as the progress of the Allies slowed.

I don't get your point.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to obvert)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

You can prep anywhere and at any time. You gain one prep point per day so 100 days to 100% prep.

Manual, p187, 8.2.1.4 states "number will increase 1 or 2 points per turn".