Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

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ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins.


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game.

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

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ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins.


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game.

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

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Think about this economic impact to Japan from mid-1942 through mid-1945. Just kind of chew upon the support costs for rebuilding, training, and then maintaining 10 extra divisions that stack up poorly (and I’m being charitable in use of the of the word ‘poorly’) to standard Japanese infantry divisions and of which would cost you an arm and a leg to even attempt to deploy off-island in the use of the limited amount of political points that Japan generates. And there is no way for Japan to disband these units either. They can’t take them off the board…

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ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

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ORIGINAL: Amoral

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

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ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

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ORIGINAL: Amoral

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

Intentions non-withstanding, I have to disagree that landing troops on the Home Islands to generate the troop activation is "gamey". Allied command knew that Japan was strapped for resources during the war, and it's not a unreasonable conclusion that by threatening the Home Islands with ground invasion early in the war would have tied up Japanese manpower and resources on the Home Islands when they would have been better served in New Guinea, China, or the Pacific Islands.

Triggering the AI's response to the invasion threat doesn't seem gamey to me, or even like a particularly ahistorical goal.

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ORIGINAL: Amoral


For me the difference between playing it as a simulation or a game is if you keep in mind what might have happened when you are picking goals or your operations. And as Bullwinkle has said there is a lot of grey area if you are trying to second guess what commanders 70 years ago might have done. For me it is what you as a player were thinking when you set up the dominoes.

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ORIGINAL: Lecivius

It's no more 'gamey' than the Doolittle raid making Japan keep a large chunk of it's fighter capability flying circles for a few years over the home islands.

My .02

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

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ORIGINAL: Lecivius

It's no more 'gamey' than the Doolittle raid making Japan keep a large chunk of it's fighter capability flying circles for a few years over the home islands.

My .02

But that was Japan's DECISION to keep those fighters over the Home Islands in reaction to the raid. Here, the code creates 9 divisions of which only 2 can be disbanded. I play as Japan and I cannot decide whether to keep these divisions or not.

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

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ORIGINAL: Lecivius

It's no more 'gamey' than the Doolittle raid making Japan keep a large chunk of it's fighter capability flying circles for a few years over the home islands.

My .02

But that was Japan's DECISION to keep those fighters over the Home Islands in reaction to the raid. Here, the code creates 9 divisions of which only 2 can be disbanded. I play as Japan and I cannot decide whether to keep these divisions or not.

And Japan can choose to keep them somewhere out of combat, only using up 100K supplies over 3 years, if they don't want to use them.

That's really not a lot of supply to budget for over the course of 75% of the war. Compare to the cost the US incurs to inflict this supply "strain"...

We'll see how it goes. I haven't disbanded either unit that are capable of disbanding, because one is the Guards Depot Division and it comes with decent devices - it actually has artillery, for example. And it seems silly to just disband 1 of them, so I kept the other one too.