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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/11/2014 2:32:48 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The pertinent rule text, in §24.1.5 is:

quote:

Sort your units into force pools. Each major power needs a separate force pool for each unit type. So, you need one each for CAV, INF, MIL, GAR, MOT, MTN, MAR, PARA, MECH, ARM, HQ-A, HQ-I, SUB, CL, CA, BB, CV, TRS, AMPH, Convoy points, FTR, LND, NAV and ATR. You only have 1 force pool for each type regardless of how many countries contribute units to your force pools.

Some of these unit types come with different costs. For example, some LND will cost you 4, some will cost you 5 and some will cost 6 build points. Separate each unit type into a sub-force pool for each cost (first cycle cost only in the case of naval units).


It's odd that the production panel shows that CVs, BBs, CAs, and CLs have their own row in the panel that you can select, while TRS and AMPH don't. (Also, given the second paragraph above, and the rules I am about to cite from §13.6.5, submarines should be split into multiple rows based on their first cycle cost.)

quote:

You must select all other units you build from the force pool randomly. You can nominate the type of unit you want to build, and sometimes even the cost you want to pay (e.g. you can choose a 2 point SCS rather than a 3 because they are in separate force pools ~ see 13.6.9). But within those parameters, the choice is random.


All that is to say that I don't know why the production panel in the screenshot displayed isn't already comprehensively breaking out units by force pool (as defined by the game rules). But it ought to.
It doesn't show TRS, because I built them all and when that happens that category disappears. It doesn't show AMPH, because I'm not playing with that optional rule.

Now I'm really confused. In building ships, which is the first cycle and which is the second. Specifically, is naval construction the first or second cycle of the naval build? If it's the second, then I've really been confused and building all wrong?

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/11/2014 2:38:35 PM   
Dabrion


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The first cycle represents the hull. That is the uniform cost cycle, the rows separated by type where you have to pick at random. The second cycle represents the superstructure. That can be varying cost and you get to choose what you want to build. This is the Naval/Submarine construction row.

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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Post #: 392
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/11/2014 2:47:04 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

The first cycle represents the hull. That is the uniform cost cycle, the rows separated by type where you have to pick at random. The second cycle represents the superstructure. That can be varying cost and you get to choose what you want to build. This is the Naval/Submarine construction row.
Oh my goodness! I have been looking at this backwards. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

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Post #: 393
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/11/2014 5:09:52 PM   
composer99


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Thanks for clearing that up about the TRS/AMPH, rkr1958.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/11/2014 7:16:57 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Well, obviously I'm confused and confusing too. But, here's my understanding, which could be completely wrong ...

It's a 2 step, or cycle, process to build a ship in MWiF:

1. Naval construction where you select ship type (e.g., large carrier, transport, battleship, cruiser).

2. Build a ship of that type (e.g., transport) and randomly get a ship of that type from the force pool. In step 2, if ships of that type are available it will show up as a separate category under "Units:" and "type".

Now my misunderstanding was in step 1. I didn't realize until yesterday evening that you could control the ship type in step 1 by clicking on that type (actually, a ship of that type) in the window to the bottom right where selecting "naval construction". I thought that was random too, that is, the selecting of the ship type in step 1 was random. Now I know that that can be specified.

How to build a ship (not a convoy point) in MWiF:

1) On the production screen, click on the class of ship you want. You will get a picture of a number of ships. Click on the "Build Selected Unit Type" button on the bottom of the screen. This will pick a random unit of that class, to be partially constructed some number of turns later.

2) Wait several turns. Eventually you will get a message during the reinforcement step saying "XXXX" has been added to the construction pool, where "XXXX" is either the name of the ship, or for an AMPH or TRS MWiF's internal label for the ship.

3) In the ensuing production step, click on "Naval Construction". This will bring up a window with ships on it. There may be all types of ships in that window: CVs, CVLs, BBs, CAs, CLs, TRSs, and AMPHs. Click on the specific ship you want. Then click on the "Build" button. That will build the ship you clicked on. That precise ship, and no other. There is no randomness involved. I have no idea what ship gets built if you did not click on any; my guess would be the one in the upper left hand corner, but that is a guess.

4) Wait several more turns. Eventually, you will get your selected ship as a reinforcement.

Submarines are the same, except for "Sub Construction", rather than "Naval Construction"

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/12/2014 1:11:52 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Well, obviously I'm confused and confusing too. But, here's my understanding, which could be completely wrong ...

It's a 2 step, or cycle, process to build a ship in MWiF:

1. Naval construction where you select ship type (e.g., large carrier, transport, battleship, cruiser).

2. Build a ship of that type (e.g., transport) and randomly get a ship of that type from the force pool. In step 2, if ships of that type are available it will show up as a separate category under "Units:" and "type".

Now my misunderstanding was in step 1. I didn't realize until yesterday evening that you could control the ship type in step 1 by clicking on that type (actually, a ship of that type) in the window to the bottom right where selecting "naval construction". I thought that was random too, that is, the selecting of the ship type in step 1 was random. Now I know that that can be specified.

How to build a ship (not a convoy point) in MWiF:

1) On the production screen, click on the class of ship you want. You will get a picture of a number of ships. Click on the "Build Selected Unit Type" button on the bottom of the screen. This will pick a random unit of that class, to be partially constructed some number of turns later.

2) Wait several turns. Eventually you will get a message during the reinforcement step saying "XXXX" has been added to the construction pool, where "XXXX" is either the name of the ship, or for an AMPH or TRS MWiF's internal label for the ship.

3) In the ensuing production step, click on "Naval Construction". This will bring up a window with ships on it. There may be all types of ships in that window: CVs, CVLs, BBs, CAs, CLs, TRSs, and AMPHs. Click on the specific ship you want. Then click on the "Build" button. That will build the ship you clicked on. That precise ship, and no other. There is no randomness involved. I have no idea what ship gets built if you did not click on any; my guess would be the one in the upper left hand corner, but that is a guess.

4) Wait several more turns. Eventually, you will get your selected ship as a reinforcement.

Submarines are the same, except for "Sub Construction", rather than "Naval Construction"
Thanks! A blind squirrel would have been doing a better job building the ships I needed (wanted) than I've been doing so far this game. I sure won't mess that up again!

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/27/2014 8:50:01 PM   
rkr1958


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Why is the city of Mukden in Manchuria still controlled by the Japanese and not the communist Chinese? This screen shot was taken a turn after the occupation of Mukden by the communist Chinese.




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< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 11/27/2014 9:50:51 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/27/2014 8:58:13 PM   
composer99


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I don't see how that can be anything other than a bug.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/27/2014 9:02:41 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I don't see how that can be anything other than a bug.
O.K. then, I'll post a (potential) bug report. I thought I'd ask the question before posting it in the tech forum.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/29/2014 6:02:30 PM   
rkr1958


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A Learning Moment (for me): Don't make assumptions about MWiF based on other strategic ww2 games (e.g., CEaW-GS).

I had just assumed that Italian subs couldn't exit the Med unless the axis controlled Gibraltar and / or the Suez Canal. So, I had never though of trying to move Italian subs from Italy to St. Vincent Sea area, until now. In fact, it was reading through volume 1 of the player's manual that tipped me off to this. The bit about having German u-boats and Italian subs in the same sea area and using the Italians to initiative combat (i.e., by takings a naval or combined) and having the Germans take a land in order to do what they do best.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/30/2014 4:55:28 PM   
Dabrion


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For constraints, they are mostly historical. Everything else goes..

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- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/6/2014 5:18:40 PM   
Zorachus99


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I'm wondering about the surprise calculation in the game.

Assume you have CW and Italian units in the west med in clear weather:

Italy:
Ftr and nav in the 2 box

Britain
1 CP some surface ships in the zero box
Small flotilla with a 2 movement cvp in the 2 box.

Assume both sides roll a 3.

Italy finds the British, and the British do not find the Italians(variable cvp searching).

If Italy selects ONLY the zero box in combat, it seems as if the allocation of surprise points is skipped.

How many surprise points should Italy have if it selects to only attack the ships in the zero box?

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/6/2014 5:24:57 PM   
paulderynck


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They should have 3. Italy gets 3 (sea box plus Nav) + 3 (CW roll) = 6. CW gets 0 (sea box) + 3 (Italian roll). Net is +3 for Italy.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/6/2014 6:22:34 PM   
brian brian

 

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Another way to look at it is difference in boxes + difference in dice. (3 - 0) + (3 - 3) = 3

Italy would also find the 0 box in Snow, Rain or Fine weather with even a roll of 4 as there is a -1 die roll modifier for the presence of 1-9 enemy Convoy Points. If the CW roll 3 or higher, only Italy selects which boxes to include and this then generates the surprise point totals.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/10/2014 10:23:15 AM   
Joseignacio


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.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/10/2014 11:24:44 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/13/2014 8:21:27 PM   
rkr1958


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In the Guadalcanal scenario the Japanese have a requirement for a minimum of 5 convoy points at sea in the China Sea and South China Sea at the end of every turn. The number of convoy points less than those minimums translate to an equivalent number of victory points for the allied player. My question is, are there any other uses for convoys in that scenario? Specifically, the CW and US also have convoys. What use are they? And, is there any other use for Japanese convoys other than fulfilling their minimum requirements?

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 12/13/2014 9:21:52 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/13/2014 9:28:08 PM   
Centuur


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If you play with Limited Overseas Supply, you need convoys and TRS to make sure your units are in supply overseas...

In Guadalcanal, there aren't any other uses for convoys.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/13/2014 9:28:47 PM   
paulderynck


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If you are playing with LOS supply - yes, they can be a conduit for supply like a TRS or Amphib.




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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/13/2014 11:11:51 PM   
rkr1958


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Thanks. I didn't think so as I'm not playing with los supply. I did want to try playing with additional optional rules, like carrier planes, cruisers in flames, amphibious rules, scs transport and this scenario is perfect for that without having to learn them in playing another global war scenario.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/14/2014 12:36:33 PM   
alexvand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

In the Guadalcanal scenario the Japanese have a requirement for a minimum of 5 convoy points at sea in the China Sea and South China Sea at the end of every turn. The number of convoy points less than those minimums translate to an equivalent number of victory points for the allied player. My question is, are there any other uses for convoys in that scenario? Specifically, the CW and US also have convoys. What use are they? And, is there any other use for Japanese convoys other than fulfilling their minimum requirements?


I often like to use convoys in order to give me a chance to maintain supply in dangerous sea zones between turns. I'll put one convoy in a sea zone that will likely be contested next turn. Then I RTB everything else. If the allies go first then the CP is there to provide supply if it doesn't get found. If it does get found it's only 1BP lost. Other times I will sail a single CP into a contested sea zone and hope it doesn't get found. The chances aren't very good, but it's a low cost way to try and slip supply into a place where you don't dare send anything else.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/15/2014 8:56:05 AM   
Joseignacio


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You can also use a convoy as a means to make the enemy find you.

For example, you have a superior air force in a sea, and you want to clash with an enemy navy force. Since you fighters are land based, you have better stats in them, so you don't care so much for his use of surprise (in the dogfight).

Then you can use a convoy of yours to give a -1 to the enemy roll. Unless the enemy is able to cancel the combat via surprise, he will have more probabilities to fight a battle you want him to fight.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/15/2014 8:59:54 AM   
Dabrion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You can also use a convoy as a means to make the enemy find you.

For example, you have a superior air force in a sea, and you want to clash with an enemy navy force. Since you fighters are land based, you have better stats in them, so you don't care so much for his use of surprise (in the dogfight).

Then you can use a convoy of yours to give a -1 to the enemy roll. Unless the enemy is able to cancel the combat via surprise, he will have more probabilities to fight a battle you want him to fight.


That is a good point! The -1 from convoys will also not impact the opponents surprise points.

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/15/2014 9:51:01 AM   
Joseignacio


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Yep!

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/22/2014 6:05:41 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You can also use a convoy as a means to make the enemy find you.

For example, you have a superior air force in a sea, and you want to clash with an enemy navy force. Since you fighters are land based, you have better stats in them, so you don't care so much for his use of surprise (in the dogfight).

Then you can use a convoy of yours to give a -1 to the enemy roll. Unless the enemy is able to cancel the combat via surprise, he will have more probabilities to fight a battle you want him to fight.

Although this sounds like a good idea, it really isn't.

Think about it. You want to have combat so most likely your opponent doesn't. If you don't find him on your search roll and he finds you, he can almost certainly pick the CP in the zero box and have enough surprise to either:
a) pick the CP, sink it and abort the sea zone scot-free; or
b) pick the CP and avoid combat and thus stay in the sea zone untouched to provide supply and/or defensive shore bombardment

So unless you want to fight from the zero box with all your units, you are better off having no other units in any other boxes, so that if your search misses and he finds, he better do so with 4 or more surprise, otherwise he has to fight.



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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/24/2014 6:14:43 AM   
rkr1958


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I just downloaded and installed the latest public beta, 1.3.1.5 and thought I'd give the Guadalcanal scenario a go. I want to add some optional rules to my play, specifically, Carrier Planes, Cruisers in Flames, SCS transport and Amphibious rules. So I thought it'd be best to get familiar with them playing the Guadalcanal scenario before I give the global war scenario another try. In the Japanese setup up I got 4 CVL's each with a capacity of 1. But on the draw for the carrier planes I only got 1 CVP of that size (i.e., 1), the rest were size 2 or greater. So at start I'm left with 3 CVL's that don't have planes. Also, I have 2 CVPs at 3 and 1 CVP at 2 that don't have carriers. Is this the way the setup is suppose to work when playing with carrier planes?

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/24/2014 7:56:57 AM   
Joseignacio


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It happens all the time in WIF, especially I remember this with the CW.

CVP are cheap (1BP) although they take a lot to get built. That's why it's pretty common to build them all or most at least, and have some as a reserve for possible losses or for when they can be loaded (in the future years) in class 1 CVs.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/24/2014 1:35:03 PM   
Centuur


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What I would suggest if you play Guadalcanal is to use the scrap optional rule. That way you can scrap a lot of the older CVP (which are for low numbered CV's) and increase the possibility of getting CVP's which do fit on your carriers. But it's the way Joseignacio already stated. Those bloody plane factories aren't building the right planes for the carriers... Or didn't the shipyards build the right ships for the carrier planes.

From a historical point of view, these things happened a lot...

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/24/2014 9:44:03 PM   
rkr1958


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I don't have a question, but a confession.

I must confess that in my first exposure playing with carrier planes I really didn't care much for that optional rule. I certainly see how it adds realism to the game, but it also complicates it significantly from my point of view. I'm kind of torn as I gain experience with this game to add this rule or not. I see that this optional rule, pilots and 2D10 CRT are in the recommended "standard" set of optional rules. I really like playing with the 1D10 CRT w/blitz, so I guess it would be consistent for me not to play with carrier planes and pilots.

So maybe I just add modestly to my (first) personal set. Synthetic oil plants I believe is a must when playing with oil rules. Probably Cruisers in Flames, Artillery, the Queens, Amphibious rules, SCS transport, Chinese Attack Weakness. And I think I'm going to skip Carrier Planes for now.




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< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 12/24/2014 10:45:26 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/24/2014 11:25:09 PM   
Orm


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I am fond of carrier planes for the Global War campaign. Then you have more control of your carrier plane force.

For the Guadalcanal scenario I dislike to use the CVP option. More CVP planes should be available for this scenario so that the draw get less importance.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/25/2014 11:04:30 AM   
Centuur


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Of course, Mr. Orm is right. However, I can understand that you don't want to play with CVP's, since they make things more difficult. Pilots, however, is an optional rule which is quite good to use. It gives you the opportunity to decide after you build a plane to actually use it (and there are a lot of crappy planes being build which you might not want to use). Pilots saves you build points in those cases.

So I suggest that you leave the CVP's out but include the pilots.

Also: use HQ support. It is a really easy rule to have but it adds to the HQ's usefullness.

Now, if you use Amphibious rules, I suggest that you also use SCS transport, since it becomes really tough to make invasions.

Now, on the rules regarding planes: why not include Fighter-Bomber, Twin engined FTR, Large ATR, Bomber and no paradrop ATR and Tank Busters? All these rules don't add much difficulty to the game, but makes things, let we say, more interesting and historical. Most of the things these rules do is generated automatically by the program and I believe you are ready for those too.

Finally: I suggest that you do some reading in the rule books regarding the possibility to align minor countries to both sides. It's not that much, but it is quite important to know...


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