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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/18/2021 4:09:52 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks guys! How on the earth do you folks that play the cardboard and paper version keep all these rules right?! So glad I've got MWiF enforcing the rules for me.

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 11/18/2021 4:13:43 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/18/2021 7:17:56 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		Our group was convinced we always read the rules correctly. However, we observed that the rules changed AFTER we read them!

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/18/2021 8:43:59 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Thanks guys! How on the earth do you folks that play the cardboard and paper version keep all these rules right?! So glad I've got MWiF enforcing the rules for me.


Years of sad arguments lead to this enlightened and merry state...

(But we still have to ask sometimes the really , reallly ugly problems because of contradictory rules, and usually the designer or his mates solve them, one has primacy ... because they say so, LOL)

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/18/2021 8:44:51 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Our group was convinced we always read the rules correctly. However, we observed that the rules changed AFTER we read them!


Sure, there is an auto edit. Everytime you read them they are edited automatically with no less than 25 changes.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/18/2021 8:45:05 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/18/2021 9:58:11 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Yes, I see the way it can be misunderstood now. I know the Germans also have a base 4-factor ME110 as well as the 5 and I had assumed it was the lower value one. The range was not a giveaway since both can fly 3 when used as bombers.

Thanks, Orm.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/28/2021 7:43:41 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Stacking in invasion

Can you invade same hex with 3 corps sized units? At which point overstacking in solved? Before or after land combat?

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If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/28/2021 9:02:37 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer_slith

Stacking in invasion

Can you invade same hex with 3 corps sized units? At which point overstacking in solved? Before or after land combat?

No, you can not invade the same hex with 3 corps size units. Overstacking is resolved at the end of each step, so the third corps would die long before you got to the combat phase.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/28/2021 10:50:19 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I have done in the board and had it done, but maybe I did it wrong, if what Courtenay says it's true, and it sounds like it is.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/28/2021 11:46:06 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

2.3.1. LIMITS
Units that can’t co-operate can’t stack together in the same hex. They can stack together in the same sea-box. Stacking applies at the end of every step and after advance after combat. Stacking also affects how and if units retreat. You cannot voluntarily overstack, but if it happens (e.g., due to liberation), the owner of the hex must destroy enough of the overstacked units to comply with the stacking limits. You must destroy organized units before disorganized units.

If someone invaded you with three corps, they pulled a fast one on you.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/29/2021 4:17:47 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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From: Finland
Status: offline 		Thank you.

Another one:

USSR has LND4 in Kola peninsula adjacent to sea (few hexes east of Murmansk). Murmansk has fallen. It’s OOS and disoranized. USSR has no oil in Kola peninsula and there is no land route to oil. USSR has no CPs in area. Can we do anything to reorg it at the end of the turn?

USSR has only one other LND4, cannot reorg by air.

It’s snow in Arctic, sending CW CP does not help as Archangel is frozen.

Creating convoy line from Arctic to Persia does not help. Is this correct?

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/29/2021 7:45:27 AM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I see no reason why a CP chain from the Arctic to Persia would not help. This, if course, only helps if Persia is Allied controlled.

The LND4 is on a coastal hex, and I do not recall anything prohibiting supply to coastal hexes in winter. Iced in ports, yes. But not coastal hexes.

So, as I understand it, you need to trace to the oil through an ice-free port. And that port can be half-way around the world, like Persia.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/29/2021 8:05:10 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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From: Finland
Status: offline 		OK. So if we do get the convoy line we can either reorg LND4 or edit save file to do it.

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/30/2021 2:56:35 AM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		Has to be a USSR controlled oil in Persia. Only cooperating Allies can share oil. Or perhaps there's a Persian port that connects back to a USSR controlled oil?

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 11/30/2021 3:40:35 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
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From: Finland
Status: offline 		USSR controls Persia.

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If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/3/2021 8:11:03 PM   
rkr1958


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Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline 		(1) I'm just trying to figure out the maximum build points that the USA can give to Free France each turn.
(2) Free France's home country is Senegal.
(3) Quoting form the rules as coded, page 104, "During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient's home country ... 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative ..."
(3) Dakar, which is the only city in Senegal, is both a capital and major port.
(4) Doesn't this mean that Free France could get and save a maximum of 3 BPs per turn?
(5) Why is the US able to send 7 and Free France save the 7 BPs?




Attachment (1)

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Ronnie

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/3/2021 8:51:42 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		I can't see any reason why the French should get more than three build points, instead of the five (not seven) that they are getting, unless the French have built two factories in Senegal, which I don't think they have.

Your picture raises a question for me: Why are only a few hexes in Senegal shown as Free French owned? A large number seem to be neutral, which makes no sense, since all hexes in an active country must be owned by someone. Or is this some peculiarity of the production map display?

< Message edited by Courtenay -- 12/3/2021 8:54:34 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/3/2021 9:43:11 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I can't see any reason why the French should get more than three build points, instead of the five (not seven) that they are getting, unless the French have built two factories in Senegal, which I don't think they have.

Your picture raises a question for me: Why are only a few hexes in Senegal shown as Free French owned? A large number seem to be neutral, which makes no sense, since all hexes in an active country must be owned by someone. Or is this some peculiarity of the production map display?
Sorry. I cut in Dakar from the original map with units off and pasted that over the map in the production screen because Dakar has 2 Free French units in it. So it's a peculiarity of my cutting and pasting. Sorry.


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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/4/2021 9:28:07 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		One thing is how many build points you can receive and another is how many you can save if you are using

quote:

13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)
You may save build points you did not spend in the production step. Use build point markers to show how many build points are being saved.
You may save only 1 build point marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) in your major power’s home country (any Commonwealth home country) and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 build points (4 x 4) in London). This is in addition to saved oil (see 13.5.1).


you can receive up to 5 BP per minor port, and Dakar is a Major... and you can save up to 16 in Dakar

I would guess that were you not saving them, the max would be 3. Because this optional is only about saving BPs.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/4/2021 9:30:27 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/4/2021 6:59:38 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

One thing is how many build points you can receive and another is how many you can save if you are using

quote:

13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)
You may save build points you did not spend in the production step. Use build point markers to show how many build points are being saved.
You may save only 1 build point marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) in your major power’s home country (any Commonwealth home country) and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 build points (4 x 4) in London). This is in addition to saved oil (see 13.5.1).


you can receive up to 5 BP per minor port, and Dakar is a Major... and you can save up to 16 in Dakar

I would guess that were you not saving them, the max would be 3. Because this optional is only about saving BPs.

Not sure where you get that you can get 5 BP to a minor port. A minor port can receive 5 resources. And no additional BPs. A city with a minor port, and no factories, can receive one BP.

Cut from RAC: 13.6.4 Lend lease
....
During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the
recipient’s home country (current home country in the case of the Commonwealth). You do this in exactly the same
way as you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport an additional 2 build points to the
capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build points to
London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories and 1 for the major port in the hex). Promised build
points that can’t be transported are lost.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 1159
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/4/2021 8:30:18 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		You quote it yourself.

quote:

13.6.1 Resources

(...)

A side can only ship 5 resources a turn into, and/or out of, each minor port.



quote:


13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)
(...)
You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1160
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/4/2021 9:49:07 PM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		You can ship 5 resources into a minor port, but they can't stay there. They have to continue on to factories. Build points are the same, except that BPs can also go to cities and major ports. So while one could ship 5 BPs through a minor port, none can stay there, unless it is a city, in which case one can plus one for each factory in the hex.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/4/2021 10:00:26 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

You can ship 5 resources into a minor port, but they can't stay there. They have to continue on to factories. Build points are the same, except that BPs can also go to cities and major ports. So while one could ship 5 BPs through a minor port


We agree

quote:

, none can stay there, unless it is a city, in which case one can plus one for each factory in the hex.


In this we disagree, look at the example (in case they are saved - which is the case- and using option 31):

quote:

13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)
You may save build points you did not spend in the production step. Use build point markers to show how many build points are being saved.
You may save only 1 build point marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) in your major power’s home country (any Commonwealth home country) and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 build points (4 x 4) in London). This is in addition to saved oil (see 13.5.1).
In a later production step, you can remove those build points from the map and add them to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital. No more than 1 saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port (e.g. you can spend 5 saved build points on production in New York and unlimited in Moscow each turn).
You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories.
If you gain control of a hex containing saved build points, they become yours.
Build points in a hex can be destroyed by strategic bombardment (see 11.7).
Option 30: Instead of adding a standard +1 if not intercepted (see 11.7), unbothered bombers add 1 for each 10 targets (factories, oil resources, (option 14: synth oil plants) and saved build points), or part thereof, in the hex. There is now no stacking limit of saved build points in a city or port.


London is Capital and port exactly the same as Dakar



< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/4/2021 10:02:35 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 12:37:11 AM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		In the example that was being discussed, the place was a minor port, so could not be a major port, unlike London or Dakar. I forgot to mention the capital exception, which was a mistake.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 12:58:37 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		1 I thouhgt we were speaking about Senegal, I was certainly answering to it.

quote:

(1) I'm just trying to figure out the maximum build points that the USA can give to Free France each turn.
(2) Free France's home country is Senegal.
(3) Quoting form the rules as coded, page 104, "During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient's home country ... 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative ..."
(3) Dakar, which is the only city in Senegal, is both a capital and major port.
(4) Doesn't this mean that Free France could get and save a maximum of 3 BPs per turn?
(5) Why is the US able to send 7 and Free France save the 7 BPs?


2 I am not positive about all this, if Courtenayt and Orm disagree, i may easily be wrong.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/5/2021 12:59:17 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 2:26:40 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

2 I am not positive about all this, if Courtenayt and Orm disagree, i may easily be wrong.

I do not see where I disagree with Courtenay. I think we are in agreement.

Anyway. I will try to clarify my thinking in a later post.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 1165
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 2:41:20 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		I think I am in agreement with Orm, also.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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Post #: 1166
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 3:03:32 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The order if things during the production might cause some confusion.

1) Shipping resources, and BPs. Here there is a limit on how much may be shipped overseas through a minor port. So a minor port may receive a maximum of 5 resources, or BPs, or combination of both. 5 is the limit though.
2) Receiving resources, and BPs. A shipped resource must be transported to a factory in order to be used. A maximum of one resource to each factory. Similarly, a BP must be transported to a place where it can be received. So Senegal, with one capital city, and one major port, can receive three BPs. Any excess is lost. Note that more BPs can be transported through the major port. But Free France has no more capacity to receive any more BPs.
3) Production.
4) BPs not use for production may now be saved. Different rules apply for saving BPs. And should not be confused with how much lending Free France can receive.

Edit: This, of course, is my humble interpretation of the rules.

< Message edited by Orm -- 12/5/2021 3:05:17 PM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 1167
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 5:21:30 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

2 I am not positive about all this, if Courtenayt and Orm disagree, i may easily be wrong.

I do not see where I disagree with Courtenay. I think we are in agreement.

Anyway. I will try to clarify my thinking in a later post.


Disagree with me, lol

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1168
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/5/2021 6:01:20 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks guys! I think I understand it now, but let me summarize a couple of points for agreement/disagreement if I may.

(1) The US can give up to 3 BPs per turn to Free France that they can receive (and use or save) through the major port/capital city of Dakar.
(2) Also, this leaves enough capacity to transport out the Senegal RP through the major port of Dakar for trade to the US (this last point not previously mentioned or addressed).

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 12/5/2021 6:02:53 PM >

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Ronnie

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Post #: 1169
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 12/6/2021 12:20:05 AM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		Your point 1 is correct.

Since Dakar is a major port, your point 2 is trivially true -- there is no limit to the number of resources and build points that can be transported through a major port. Only a minor port has limitation on how many resources and build points can be transported through it (5).

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 1170
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