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- 2/8/2003 4:17:21 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I'm one of the few people that play multi-day turns (2-day turns to be precise). Frankly, I don't know how you COULD play WitP on 1-day turns and every have any hope of finishing it (but then again, I only play one PBEM turn a night anyways).

Regardless, whatever the engine does, it DOES need tweaking so that one can play 7 day turns or whatever. It is currently impossible to play anything more than 3-day turns without killing half your pilots from fatigue (because they fly the same mission for 7 days straight). Frankly, I would rather NOT have an additional control to set, I'd rather just have it not fly themselves into exaustion after the 3rd day. But SOMETHING needs to be done so that the came -can- be played on 7-day turns. Otherwise what's the point of it to begin with?

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 31
The Seven Days - 2/9/2003 3:21:26 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline 		I'm in Feinder's camp. I want a game I have a chance of finishing. Those of us with jobs and families could never hope to complete a WITP campaign playing one-day turns.

Command & control and the combat routines in UV make multi-day turns something between unrealistic and unplayable. Being able to form "groups" for "operations" would be nice in a hemisphere-scaled game, but not (to me) essential.

What *is* essential are the tweaks necessary to allow troops, planes and ships to function as they should when given a week's worth of orders. If WITP does not work on that scale, then it holds no attractions for me.

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 32
Finishing - 2/10/2003 12:00:17 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Whats the hurry? What is differant about playing a game for 2 years and finishing 4 games at 7 days per turn compared to finishing 1 game at 1 day per turn? (You spent the same amout of time sitting at the computer)

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 33
Re: Finishing - 2/10/2003 9:12:51 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Whats the hurry? What is differant about playing a game for 2 years and finishing 4 games at 7 days per turn compared to finishing 1 game at 1 day per turn? (You spent the same amout of time sitting at the computer) [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe they don't want to play 4 games. Or maybe they have to start over 5 or 6 times due to patches and want to try to finish a game between patches.

If the game is gonna allow 7 day turns then it should be able to handle those 7 days is a reasonable manner. If it can't then only allow 3 day (or whatever the game can reasonably handle) turns.:)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 34
- 2/10/2003 9:20:30 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		I jst scanned through the posts here so this may have already been mentioned - I would like the # of torps for subs displayed on the first screen. All the pertinent info for subs is on the first screen except torps. And I am lazy - I don't wanna click to the next screen just to see them then click BACK so I can give a movement order.

While I am at it, if there could be a right click on a TF just to give movement orders (without filling up the screen with the TF window) that would save a lot of time and clicking. Right now you click the TF, click the movement button, click the destination, then the screen fills up with the TF info and you can't see the path of your TF unless you exit (or try to move the screen to look around the edges) then you click exit. If you have right-click, click for DH it would be a lot easier. A lot of the time I already know what is in the TF (although my opponents would refute this statement) and just want to move it.:)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 35
- 2/11/2003 10:12:32 AM   
pmath8

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/11/2003
From: Jacksonville
Status: offline 		I would like to be able to exert greater control over fleets, particularly bombardment fleets. I find it nearly impossible to get them to remain at the bombardment hex after bombardment no matter what options I use. My fleet also switches missions aginst my wishes.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 36
Re: Finishing - 2/15/2003 1:35:56 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Whats the hurry? What is differant about playing a game for 2 years and finishing 4 games at 7 days per turn compared to finishing 1 game at 1 day per turn? (You spent the same amout of time sitting at the computer) [/B][/QUOTE]

What's the difference between inheriting a million dollars in one year; or a dollar a year for a million years?

You get the same amount of money either way -- but I'd still have a preference. :)

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 37
Re: Re: Finishing - 2/15/2003 4:28:38 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackhorse
[B]What's the difference between inheriting a million dollars in one year; or a dollar a year for a million years?

You get the same amount of money either way -- but I'd still have a preference. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Huh? I do not follow the logic. It's more like writing 7 chess moves down and then when your opponent makes a move you had not considered watching the AI ignore what is happening and continue with the 7 (now silly) moves.
The main question is, which is more important? Being able to finish a game where every 7 days you try to sort out the mess. Or
playing just one game where every turn reflects your idea of what your forces should be doing. The one requires more effort to be sure. But it also allows more satisfaction and immersion.
I don't think WITP is meant for the faint/half hearted approach
(I often spend 4 or more hours just looking at the map without giving any orders just to make myself aware of where everything is at and what possible choices there are. ) Once the game gets moving I like to keep my finger on the pulse and correct anything I might have overlooked. (Simple errors of no real impact in 1 day turns can result in spectacular mishaps if allowed to run unchecked for 7 days.
I'm certain there will be the option for multi days turns. Your welcome to them. I will be happy with the few players I know who will try to finish the game no matter how long is required and would only want to use the single day option.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 38
- 2/15/2003 5:05:32 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		As the song says:

You're gonna come 'round talkin' to me about
All of your simplicity, well I've
Heard that story once before, I'm not
Gonna take it anymore,
I have locked and barred the gates of
All of our future debates,
'Cause I been livin' it, baby, day by day.

If people are able to persuade Matrix/2by3 to compromise the integrity of the game as played in daily turns, I'm not gonna be a happy camper.

PW works within its own milieu with weekly turns because the system was designed to play out in weekly turns. The UV system, on the other hand, has so many characteristics obviously designed for daily turn play (I even sense, with the search, naval movement, and two-times-a-day airstrike mechanics, that two-a-day turns were contemplated) that playing at any other interval compromises the game's design integrity. It's like trying to drive a Ford Pinto (not that I'm comparing the UV game system to such a crappy car) at 150 miles per hour. It just doesn't happen. If you can be happy with the results you get when playing in multi-day turns, fine, but let the design work its way out to be what it is intended to be in WITP.

Discussions about how you want to live your life are nothing to the point. Neither are mentions of "Hey, have you ever played Pacific Donkey Dork Wars? It does things this way and that way, and it'd really be NEAT, GROOVY, and FAR OUT if that could be grafted onto WITP."

Okay. Fire away. This is my story, officer, and I'm sticking to it.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 39
- 2/15/2003 5:14:30 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		"Daily turns Rock eh huh-huh huh-huh"
--Butthead

"yeah! they rule heh-heh they RULE! heh-heh"
--Beavus

:)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 40
- 2/18/2003 4:52:11 AM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline 		Pretty much satisfied with the current UV system although some additions would be welcome.

For air/land groups the ability to set the replacment level and with the supply system in place I would like my best air groups to recieve the best stuff first and will be kept well supplied with them. So would like to see a manual upgrade option.

For TF's cover/escort and screen orders.

Some options/filters so I can see which units fall under xx HQ or vice versa, which units falls under xx HQ. Makes it easier to select them when moving or loading them onto ships.

_____________________________


(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 41
Re: Re: Re: Finishing - 2/18/2003 3:00:45 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]
(I often spend 4 or more hours just looking at the map without giving any orders just to make myself aware of where everything is at and what possible choices there are. ) [/B][/QUOTE]

Ouch. I'll stick to UV then thanks. 1/2 hour setup turns are enough for me!!!;)

_____________________________

In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 42
Turn length - 2/19/2003 12:47:18 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, You don't have to stare at the map for 4 hours without doing anything. (I just like to look at the map)
But I doubt any one ever completes a turn one (long campaign)
in 1/2 hour.
But I think their will be set ups where the orders have already been issued. (If you want to use the Historical orders)

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 43
Light relief (terrain type??) - 2/19/2003 11:05:57 AM   
Aussie

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 10/3/2002
From: Darwin, Australia
Status: offline 		[I]You don't have to stare at the map for 4 hours without doing anything[/I]

Sure, you could stop every half hour to rub your eyes, and after every hour to put drops in. :D Staring at maps isn't a waste of leisure time - even in you do stare at them for a living like I do.

;)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 44
- 2/19/2003 4:09:31 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pasternakski
[B]If people are able to persuade Matrix/2by3 to compromise the integrity of the game as played in daily turns, I'm not gonna be a happy camper.

The UV system . . . has so many characteristics obviously designed for daily turn play . . . that playing at any other interval compromises the game's design integrity.

Okay. Fire away. This is my story, officer, and I'm sticking to it. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's a good story. I agree with it.

As you say, the UV system is designed for daily turn play. The poll question that started this thread was whether or not the UV engine has the planning/command tools to support multi-turn play in WiTP. We both (and I think most others) would agree it does not.

Where we part company is your belief that Matrix should not try to make the game work for multi-day turns, for fear that it would compromise the game the way you want to play it. Fair enough.

I hope that Matrix does make the effort, because I'm interested in playing the game in 5-7 day turns. To me, WiTP with daily turns would be to computer games what SPI's old Campaign for North Africa was to board games -- a gorgeous, detailed simulation*; monstrously unplayable as a game.

*= any other old timers remember having to keep track on paper of where individual tanks and trucks broke down in the desert? Or the optional Italian 'pasta' rule?

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 45
Re: Light relief (terrain type??) - 2/19/2003 6:37:55 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aussie
[B][I]You don't have to stare at the map for 4 hours without doing anything[/I]

Sure, you could stop every half hour to rub your eyes, and after every hour to put drops in. :D Staring at maps isn't a waste of leisure time - even in you do stare at them for a living like I do.

;) [/B][/QUOTE]


OOooooo look ! A Territorian ! A rare bird indeed......renound for their beer drinking abilitys (even by Australian standards) and the curious habit of the entire city of Darwin sitting down at the beach each evening to watch the sun set.
;)

G'day mate, welcome aboard....always good to see another Aussie.

Did you know that today (19th 0f Feb) is the 62nd aniversary of the bombing of Darwin?

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 46
- 2/20/2003 2:50:03 AM   
bilbow


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackhorse
[B]It's a good story. I agree with it.

As you say, the UV system is designed for daily turn play. The poll question that started this thread was whether or not the UV engine has the planning/command tools to support multi-turn play in WiTP. We both (and I think most others) would agree it does not.

Where we part company is your belief that Matrix should not try to make the game work for multi-day turns, for fear that it would compromise the game the way you want to play it. Fair enough.

I hope that Matrix does make the effort, because I'm interested in playing the game in 5-7 day turns. To me, WiTP with daily turns would be to computer games what SPI's old Campaign for North Africa was to board games -- a gorgeous, detailed simulation*; monstrously unplayable as a game.

*= any other old timers remember having to keep track on paper of where individual tanks and trucks broke down in the desert? Or the optional Italian 'pasta' rule? [/B][/QUOTE]


Oh yes, Campaign for North Africa. Completely unplayable. My unpuched copy is still 25 years later sitting on a shelf. But that's where the computer comes in- to manage all that detail that couldn't possibly be managed in a manual simulation. That's why daily turns will work in WITP. Just like if someone were to translate CNA to the computer it would likely work well.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 47
- 2/26/2003 4:54:56 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		WITP will have many more bases and many more units than Uncommon Valour. I would like to glance at a screen and from that glance make important decisions.

In my requests below, the information is already available to the player, all I am asking is that some information appear on 2 or more screens, thereby making it somewhat easier for the player to access.



The LIST ALL BASES screen
= = = = = = = = = = = = =

The main objective of the game is to achieve more victory points than your opponent. The majority of points come from building up bases.

One thing I need to know is whether it is worth building up a base before the end of the scenario. Therefore I need some columns added to this screen.

1. The victory point value of each base at the start of this turn - assuming the game ended now.

2. The estimated point value should the scenario go full term. The calculation would assume that there are no troops move to or from the base and that no further supplies are added to or removed from this base. This makes the calculation simple. It’s only intended to be an indication.

3. The current base size and the maximum base size for air bases and for ports. I don’t want to inadvertently attempt to build a base beyond its maximum size




The LIST ALL TASK FORCES screen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Currently there is a column with the destination of each TF. But I need to know whether a task force actually completed its mission. Sometimes they React to Enemy and change their destination to home. To me this is a great weakness of the game.

So I need to know whether the TF is returning home because it completed its mission or whether it was Reacting to Enemy. Currently, to check each TF one at a time is very mundane.

A column “mission completed / not completed” would be useful.



The LIST ALL LAND BASED AIRCRAFT screen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I need to know the current order issued to each squadron, to ensure that each squadron is busy. Please add a column.

The experience and fatigue levels.

Also I need to know, without going in and out of all the base screens, whether there is enough aviation support at their current base. A column “is the aviation support at this base adequate Y or N” would be useful. I know that the aviation support - available / required - is shown in the base screen but again this would improve navigation for the players.




The LIST ALL NAVAL BASED AIRCRAFT screen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Like their land based brethren, I need a column added showing the current orders to each squadron.

The experience and fatigue levels




The LIST ALL GROUND UNITS screen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The current orders.

The assault level.

And whether, at the hex in question, there are enough Supplies and Support for the ground troops stationed at that hex. Of course this is a reference to ALL the troops in the hex – not just the unit in question. Both these figures are available from the base screen but this extra column would improve navigation for the players.

Whether the unit is marching between bases.

Whether the units are aboard a transport ship. If so the TF number and a link to that TF.

Whether the unit is currently being transported by aircraft transports.

If they are currently being transported or marching, the base transporting from and the base transporting to and a link to those bases.



For ALL screens
= = = = = = =

The ability to grab the list with the mouse and move it around my monitor. Inevitably the hex I need to study is directly underneath.

The notepad idea I posted in another thread – the ability to open and type into the notepad and have a List All screen open at the same time.


Last edited by Joe 98 on Thursday at 1029 PM 19 Dec 02

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 48
- 2/26/2003 5:11:49 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackhorse
[B]It's a good story. I agree with it.

As you say, the UV system is designed for daily turn play. The poll question that started this thread was whether or not the UV engine has the planning/command tools to support multi-turn play in WiTP. We both (and I think most others) would agree it does not.

Where we part company is your belief that Matrix should not try to make the game work for multi-day turns, for fear that it would compromise the game the way you want to play it. Fair enough.

I hope that Matrix does make the effort, because I'm interested in playing the game in 5-7 day turns. To me, WiTP with daily turns would be to computer games what SPI's old Campaign for North Africa was to board games -- a gorgeous, detailed simulation*; monstrously unplayable as a game.

*= any other old timers remember having to keep track on paper of where individual tanks and trucks broke down in the desert? Or the optional Italian 'pasta' rule? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey - I've still got SPI's "War in the Pacific", and I did punch out the starting pieces and set it up a couple of times. And once I set it up to compare to the original issue of Pacwar.

Would I go back to paper-based games? Not unless the electricity goes away for good.

Will I play WitP on 1 day turns? God help me, probably, but I sure am going to want to have as much automation as possible.

BTW - will the option to set altitudes still be there? :rolleyes:

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 49
- 2/26/2003 2:44:42 PM   
demonterico


Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline 		First of all thank you Matrix for once again soliciting our input.

Mo your not the only one who spends hours staring at maps and tweeking every base each turn. To be honest I have no idea how the heck I'll ever get through the full WITP scenario but god knows I'm going to try, one day at a time. Wouldn't have it any other way. I do have several ideas though for getting over this hurdle. The first is I can convert to Buddhism. Then if I can't make it through a game in this life I'll finish later when I'm reincarnated. Then theres plan B. I could quit work, buy a laptop and move into a homeless shelter, thereby providing myself with more time to concentrate on WITP. Unfortunately I just discovered a flaw in this plan while reading another thread. Apparently the maps for UV and WITP don't fit on a laptop screen, has something to do with sizing, or resizing or something. So I'll have to fall back on plan C. That would be a desktop in a shopping cart.

Up till now there have been some excellent suggestions made, and I support those that will help to organize and provide more information. The suggestions just listed by Joe98 are great.

I do have a wish list I've been keeping for just such a moment. Some are repeats, like you can add my vote for having way points for TFs. Others are;

I wish I could assign the TF number rather than just getting the next open number.

I wish I could order a TF to sail to and join another TF.

I wish I could order a TF to drop off or pick up ships at ports while enroute to its final destination.

I wish I could assign search areas for aircraft and limit their ranges. I hate it when I'm looking for the Lex and Yorkie in the Coral sea and my Mavises are over in Cooktown finding a MS.

Ditto for Bombers.

I wish the map would zoom out further, had sliders, and also could be moved using the arrow keys. I don't like bumping the sides to move the map. Also if you continue using side bump I'd like a lock button for the map.

I wish the buttons were bigger and always in the same location on the screen.

I agree with the person who said he'd like to be able to move the windows that are open, because they always block the center of the map.

And last I wish that the game saved the combat and sighting reports for reference at later times.

_____________________________

The world has never seen a more impressive demonstration of the influence of sea power upon history. Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and the dominion of the world. -- Alfred Thayer Mahan

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 50
- 2/27/2003 9:29:13 AM   
Aussie

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 10/3/2002
From: Darwin, Australia
Status: offline 		Hi Raverdave,

Thanks, but our renowned beer drinking ability is waning somewhat - too many southerners coming up here to dilute things`! ;)
Feb 19: anniversary of Nagumo's famous 'hammer to crack a nutshell' carrier strike. The wrecks from that raid are popular amongst fisherman as artificial reefs. I used to be a museum guide at Darwin's Aviation Historical Centre - you should check it out if you are ever up here: B52, Sabre, Zero wreck, half a B-25 & more.

Regards

Dan

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 51
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