A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts

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A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 9:42:43 PM

reggimann

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Hey guys, new player here. I spent the past week reading the manual, this forum as well as all there is to find on YouTube. I'm trying to get a handle on my first scenario, the 1000-Mile-War.

I'm trying out simple things, in order to get a grip of this beast. My current problem is this:

I'm sending my Liberator bombers from Durch Harbor to Kiska Island for a nice raid on their port and ground forces. I set all fighters at Adak Island to escort. Yet when my bombers are over the target, none of my fighters are with them.

I've checked max range, I've tried setting CAP to 100 or 0, I've set the destination explicitly to Kiska, I've left it up to the commander... nothing works. The only thing I can imagine at this point would be the weather. Is that what's keeping my planes on the ground? Why are the bombers up? And where can I check such things?

Thanks so much for any answer.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 9:51:46 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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It might be the unit's morale. In order to fly, the unit has to pass a morale check. The only fighters that can make it to Kiska are a squadron of P-38s, and their morale is in the toilet at the start of the game.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:03:01 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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Yeah, not familiar with scenario so just fired up the map to take a look. Could be the weather, but I think its more a problem of distance. Dutch Harbor and Adak are quite far apart and that's gonna make coordination difficult. I only play the full campaign (jumped right in, not for everyone) so I don't know what knid of HQ's you have and the geography is dicey but if you could get an HQ into position with enough range to reach both bases that might help. Hang out a bit, I'm sure others will jump in soon (if they haven't while I've been writing this).

< Message edited by rustysi -- 3/18/2014 11:05:16 PM >

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:04:50 PM

reggimann

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Thanks for answering, Icedawg. I have three squadrons of P40-Es at Adak with a max range of 5 and morale of 50ish. The distance to Kiska is 5.

Distance should be fine, right?

Morale check: I'm assuming 56 does not mean a 56% chance of surviving the morale check, right?

And the "secondary" orders when "Escort" is selected. Which value should maximize my planes going on escort (choices are CAP, LRCAP, Training, Rest)?

Sorry for all the questions!

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Post #: 4

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:07:22 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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What you are trying to do is referred to as air-coordination, trying to coordinate your bombers and escorts to arrive at the same target at the same time. The general consensus is that in order for air coordination to occur, both bombers and fighters should originate from the same base and be set at the same altitude. It's also a plus if both are under the same HQ, IIRC. There's a thread out there called something like the Air Coordination Guide. See if you can find it and it'll tell you all you need to know.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:10:05 PM

EHansen

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Could you post a screen shot of one of the fighter units?

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:14:37 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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I found the link. It's by LoBaron and contains all the info you need and then some. Good stuff.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382494

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:15:12 PM

reggimann

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Ah, the plot thickens. Thanks for your input, guys. This thing is tougher than I thought, but it sure makes sense. The P40-Es were set to 10'000 feet, the Liberators to 15'000, not smart. Also, coordinating from different airfields, with overcast weather doesn't help.

Man this game is awesome!

Let me try to remedy the situation.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:15:52 PM

rustysi

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Believe it or not I've read here that some won't fly their A/C with morale <85-90, so it could be that 50ish is low. As to your other question if you select nothing else 100% of your A/C will attempt to escort. This will tire them out quickly though. If you don't feel threatened you may not need CAP, but I'd set some of them to rest. If you click on the various buttons they go up/down by 10%. Some will also use LRCAP as a quasi escort, or you could run a sweep over the base to take down your opponents CAP. Beware that with these two methods if your bombers arrive first they're still on there own.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:18:49 PM

reggimann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EHansen

Could you post a screen shot of one of the fighter units?

Sure!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CptEggman -- 3/18/2014 11:19:54 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:21:09 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptEggman

Thanks for answering, Icedawg. I have three squadrons of P40-Es at Adak with a max range of 5 and morale of 50ish. The distance to Kiska is 5.

Distance should be fine, right?

Morale check: I'm assuming 56 does not mean a 56% chance of surviving the morale check, right?

And the "secondary" orders when "Escort" is selected. Which value should maximize my planes going on escort (choices are CAP, LRCAP, Training, Rest)?

Sorry for all the questions!

Escorts will rarely fly with morale in the 50s. I don't usually let a group fly at all, even CAP, if it's below 80 morale or above 20 fatigue.

Coordinating from two different bases is tough, but can be achieved. You can also sweep first to see if there is CAP, if in normal range LR CAP the base, or move the bombers to the base with the fighters for best coordination. The altitude being the same of course still being important.

Keep asking questions! This forum is the second half of the manual.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:21:39 PM

reggimann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

I found the link. It's by LoBaron and contains all the info you need and then some. Good stuff.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382494

A great resource, thank you!

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 12

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:21:41 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptEggman

Ah, the plot thickens. Thanks for your input, guys. This thing is tougher than I thought, but it sure makes sense. The P40-Es were set to 10'000 feet, the Liberators to 15'000, not smart. Also, coordinating from different airfields, with overcast weather doesn't help.

Man this game is awesome!

Let me try to remedy the situation.

Wait it gets better!

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:33:29 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Sorry for all the questions!

At least some here would prefer that you look first and I get that, me I don't care. Maybe I will later but the more I help others (and I've gotten a ton of help myself here) the more I help myself. I'm pretty new too. I don't think I saw that v2.1 guide, so now I have. Printed and ready to go into my game binder (second 3" D-ring). Forum is definately second half of manual (which I suggest you read cover to cover several times).

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Post #: 14

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:45:23 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptEggman

Ah, the plot thickens. Thanks for your input, guys. This thing is tougher than I thought, but it sure makes sense. The P40-Es were set to 10'000 feet, the Liberators to 15'000, not smart. Also, coordinating from different airfields, with overcast weather doesn't help.

Man this game is awesome!

Let me try to remedy the situation.

If the P-40s are flying from a separate base (say, Adak), then setting destination is a requirement if you want them to escort the strike to the target. I believe this is covered in the manual.

Their Morale is way too low. They won't always stay on the ground with 54 or 56, but that's really low. Even if they do fly, they may not perform well.

You need more supply at the base in order to get them to have drop tanks.

For the air HQs, I'm unsure of exactly how this works. To be safe, I'd post an HQ at each base, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game engine only checked either the fighter or the bomber unit for escort coordination in this case.

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Post #: 15

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:56:28 PM

dr.hal

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Another option is Long Range Cap over the target. However a unit will not conduct LRCAP beyond its "normal" range (for the P-40E that's a 4) so you can not use a P-40 unless drop-tanks are involved. If you DO use drop tanks, fatigue will build up VERY quickly. The P-38s would be a better LRCAP. If you establish CAP over the target then by definition you will have "escorts" however remember that only 1/3 of a cap is airborne at any one time, so you won't have very many fighters over the target when your liberators arrive.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 10:58:41 PM

kbfchicago

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Would add to all of the great input above you're also hampered by "extended range". Lokasenna touched on it by recommending getting enough supply for drop tanks, which would let you run the mission within "normal" range. My observation is the game does a great job by further limiting chances for success for missions flown at extended ranges, especially for escort (sweeps "seem" to have a higher success rate in the extended band but I've never run any tests to prove it).

IRL your P-40s would hit the target area at the edge of their fuel time and have just minutes on location before they would have turn back...making them much less effective, no time to linger, no time to escort as they would need to fly back at cruise speed ahead of the bombers or risk running out of fuel short of the home base.

< Message edited by kbfchicago -- 3/18/2014 11:59:48 PM >

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/18/2014 11:08:10 PM

obvert

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PS - Just saw your screenie. Your group leader is crap. Low leadership will likely inhibit linking up as well as gaining experience. Low inspiration will inhibit morale and number of planes flying. That and flying a lot at extended range is the reason for the low morale. Drop tanks will help, and as said above you'll let them have time to linger.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/19/2014 12:16:19 AM >

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 1:15:51 AM

jmalter

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hi CptE, welcome to the forums & don't hesitate to post your questions. There are scads of folks who've gotten lots of beneficial advice here, who are more than willing to return the favor to new guys.

I'll agree w/ previous posters - an airgroup w/ Morale in the 50's is not combat-capable, and the Commander's low Leadership/Inspiration values aren't helping. Spend some PP to replace this leader! A fighter sqn needs a leader w/ Ldrsp/Insp/Air/Aggression skills in the high 50's, minimum.

To repair Fatigue, put the sqn on 100% Rest. To improve Morale, put the group on 100% Escort Training, at 5k' alt & range=0 (to minimize Fatigue increase during Training).

Another item not mentioned yet in this thread - your 11th FS (P-40E's) has only 18 pilots. All airgroups will accept 1/3rd more pilots than their plane capacity. This sqn could have 6 more pilots, note the 'Add 6 pilots' button in this group's screen. Also, this group has no Reserve planes, although 75 are available. An operational sqn should have its max of 4 Reserve planes (carrier-based groups can only have 2 or 3 Reserves), to keep it flying at max effectiveness. But an airgroup can only buy new planes every 7 days, so wait until the reserves have dropped to 1 before clicking for more. Buying a new plane costs supply - keep shipping supply to your bases!

Maxing out a group's pilots (and ensuring that they are Active, not on Delay) will reduce decreases in Fatigue & Morale. For best results, all pilots should have similar Experience (high-to-low difference ~5), and their Skill difference should be ~10 at most.

Always set your Fighters to use droptanks if available, even at low ranges it increases their effectiveness. But using droptanks increases supply requirements!

Escort/Bomber coordination does not always occur, even under optimal conditions (groups flying at same altitude from same base). Some call this 'emulation of reality', others blame the 'pure cussedness' of the game-engine!

As a final thought, airgroups set to 100% ops will deteriorate rapidly. As a general rule, groups on 'continuous ops' should be set to 40-60% Rest. Use 100% ops only when flying a max effort, & realize that 100% rate will cause the group to deteriorate, & it will soon need Rest/Training time to recover.

hth.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 1:35:20 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

PS - Just saw your screenie. Your group leader is crap. Low leadership will likely inhibit linking up as well as gaining experience. Low inspiration will inhibit morale and number of planes flying. That and flying a lot at extended range is the reason for the low morale. Drop tanks will help, and as said above you'll let them have time to linger.

Yes.

For a fighter group commander, you want to prioritize (and in this order): Air, then Inspiration/Leadership. None of the others matter. Admin might, but the other 3 are way more important.

I always have 60+ in each of those 3 skills for all of my front line fighter group commanders, if possible.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 2:56:20 AM

geofflambert

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In my view B-24s and B-17s do not require escorts in the early part of the war. Just watch them shoot down Zeros. You might call such operations 4E 30G sweeps. Seriously, don't send escorts (to be shot down for no gain) with the 4Es (American). Otherwise, don't commit to the Aleutians those sort of resources unless you intend offensive operations against the Kuriles and Hokkaido, forthwith.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 5:07:09 AM

rustysi

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The Gorn is right.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 8:24:46 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

What you are trying to do is referred to as air-coordination, trying to coordinate your bombers and escorts to arrive at the same target at the same time. The general consensus is that in order for air coordination to occur, both bombers and fighters should originate from the same base and be set at the same altitude. It's also a plus if both are under the same HQ, IIRC. There's a thread out there called something like the Air Coordination Guide. See if you can find it and it'll tell you all you need to know.

I agree with all except the same base. It does not have to be, different bases also works provided they are both within range of the same HQ. You should also consider smaller strikes, larger strikes has more die rolls. Don't mix a/c from different nations (navy/army etc) in the same strike and separate strikes by at least 2K to help stop the AI from becoming confused.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 8:29:22 AM

reggimann

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So much advice here! I appreciate all the input you guys have given, thanks. I will now go about fixing my airgroups, getting them the right leaders and replacements and maybe some R&R.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 4:11:05 PM

Lokasenna

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There is an air coordination guide, which I believe is stickied, in the War Room. Check it out.

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RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/19/2014 4:50:43 PM

czert2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CptEggman

Ah, the plot thickens. Thanks for your input, guys. This thing is tougher than I thought, but it sure makes sense. The P40-Es were set to 10'000 feet, the Liberators to 15'000, not smart. Also, coordinating from different airfields, with overcast weather doesn't help.

Man this game is awesome!

Let me try to remedy the situation.

This game dont have learning curve, it is learning cliff :).

(in reply to reggimann)

Post #: 26

RE: A noob's problem: Fighter Escorts - 3/20/2014 2:47:15 AM

crsutton

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If there is any air defense over the enemy base Gorn is right. Send in the bombers without escort as any escort will be slaughtered by the defending fighters and the Allies can't lose aircraft this way. (Not sure about this scenario). Do as recommended here. Give your fighter units good leaders with high air skill and aggression. Rest them until moral is 100 or close enough. Then if you need fighter support use drop tanks (always at that distance) and put the fighters at 100% Long range CAP over the target hex. LRCAP causes high fatigue so rotate the units-at least every other day but better every third day. But my experience is that LRCAP always provided better cover. Actually, once you nail the base for two or three days with heavies, you should hot have to worry about escort.

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